The Dark Fate of the Starks

[Kierria]

On 9/27/2020 at 6:18 AM, Rosetta Stone said:

"Rickon's fate will depend on how he is raised by Osha as well as the plans Wayman has for him.  His life will be in danger if he lets himself become a Manderly pawn.  Best if he can somehow cross over to Essos and await the Spring. "

 

He needs to get away from Skagos.  That place make the Boltons look civilized. 

[Kierria]

On 9/26/2020 at 5:26 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

 

George is not being subtle. You’re reading into the text looking for it to be grim dark and morally grey. Assuming nuance and complexity and seeing it everywhere. Oh, the Freys had some passable motivation for the Red Wedding which must mean George wants to cast a shadow over Robs cause. I really don’t buy this. The rest are basically foibles and part of the tragedy of their house.

The Starks are depicted as innocent victims of external aggression. They are given a moral blank cheque by George via Northern nationalism. He goes out of of his way to separate the Starks from any negative consequences (Bolton’s and Karstarks do bad things before backstabbing the Starks) and obscures their involvement. 

Contrast this to the conga line of characters who accuse Dany of being insane to her face. Lecture her on her motivations. Not one character criticises Rob Stark for his one war which implicitly devastated the Riverlands. Yet one village where Dany objects to the whole enterprise is considered to be a big deal? That’s not the writer showing nuance, that’s a double standard. 

Entire chapters and entire novels dedicated towards how her family were bad news for Westeros and evil. How every Targaryen was a repugnant genocidal monster because of their weak blood. Whilst the Starks are depicted as these proud Kings of Winter who have never known defeat and can endure the harshest Winter. You’d never have the Stark equivalent of The Mad King or Maegor. George is not being subtle here. The Starks are given favourable treatment in the story. 

 I recently watched some reviewer of Dune make the point about the main character initially being set up as the hero in book one. But then by book two of the trilogy he’s slowly revealed to be not all he was cracked up to be. Well, we’re on the penultimate book in a monster seven novel series. George would have to have left it extremely late in the day for this dark turn by the Starks. Dany, he’s been saying she’s a monster and insane since the first novel. People didn’t expect it because it’s a stupid and pointless direction to take the character. Thank God there’s no such thing as weak Targaryen incest blood in the real world. A normal person would never make those mistakes. But if that was his intent to subvert the hero trope with the Starks he would have to have left a clear trail. Have a character start doubting the motivations of the Starks. Question why they are doing what they are doing. This has not happened. 

 

 

George has not condemned an entire family.  If anything, he shows even a good side to the Boltons in Domeric.  The Greyjoys even have a white sheep in Asha.  It's not subtle or not subtle.  There is a message for us to ponder.  There are good and bad apples in every family.  It is my opinion but it seems to me this is one of the main ideas.  There are faults on every side and some kind of forgiveness is in order to address the looming problem of climate change.  The winter will be brutal to those who choose to pursue a policy of payback and isolation. 

[TheLastWolf]

5 hours ago, Kierria said:

He needs to get away from Skagos.  That place make the Boltons look civilized. 

I was wondering if the rumors about Skagosi are intentionally false to keep unwelcome eyes away from something happening secretly there.... 

[Daeron the Daring]

2 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

I was wondering if the rumors about Skagosi are intentionally false to keep unwelcome eyes away from something happening secretly there....

Cannibalism is confirmed by the Citadel, but they aren't yet sure about unicorns. I wonder if we will get a major character originated from Skagos.

After all, Skagos is an island, pretty isolated, why would they care about the things going on on the main land? Hope we'll get answers soon.

[Tyrion1991]

7 hours ago, Kierria said:

George has not condemned an entire family.  If anything, he shows even a good side to the Boltons in Domeric.  The Greyjoys even have a white sheep in Asha.  It's not subtle or not subtle.  There is a message for us to ponder.  There are good and bad apples in every family.  It is my opinion but it seems to me this is one of the main ideas.  There are faults on every side and some kind of forgiveness is in order to address the looming problem of climate change.  The winter will be brutal to those who choose to pursue a policy of payback and isolation. 

 

You think having the Bolton’s be naturally inclined towards sadism, torture and betrayal isn’t going to seriously colour the readers view of the conflict? If you demonise the other houses and nations it is irrelevant if there’s a paragraph discussing a minor Bolton character doing something nice. It’s like saying the Empire isn’t evil because that one pilot let some people go. Especially set against multiple POV Stark characters who don’t get off torturing innocent people. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it probably is a duck. This is clear cut good versus evil and presented as such. For example George had the Bolton’s and Freys betray the Starks. So all the evil and repulsive factions end up on one side and all the nice wooly Reeds, Mormonts and Manderleys on the other. That’s not morally grey, it actually makes the distinction even clearer. If he wanted a grey story he should have written one. 

You would never have a Stark analogue to Tywin Lannister or the Mad King. You would never have a Northern character suggesting their entire society is wrong and needs to change like Asha with the Ironborn. You would never have a Stark be told that they should abandon this mad quest for vengeance like Doran Martel was told. You would never have the Stark bloodline be put under constant suspicion for being impure. You would never have the Northern warrior culture torn into like Knighthood and chivalry is by almost every character. In fact, the North being the only faction not to have Knights is kind of telling of itself here. George didn’t want to imply this was aimed at them. The criticism is only cutting one way. This implicitly frames the Starks and the North positively. George is literally all but saying that everyone is crap compared to the Starks and North. 

Which is George setting up the Starks as the force of reason that unites Westeros. You’re assuming the Starks won’t be set into that role by George to make them look good. That oh, they’ll be consumed by vengeance and take this dark turn everyone is convinced they’re on. Despite the whole series pointing out that all these problems exist in all the other houses except the Starks/North. Which, we’ve seen nothing of even going into the penultimate book. There might be some wrangling and soul searching but that’s how it’s going to play out.

 

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

Rickon being raised by cannibals could actually improve his chances of survival.  Martin has been slowly turning the clock backwards.  His plan was to have Catelyn and her children go north.  They only survived because of the brutal nature of their direwolves.  He has changed the plot but some of those original ideas may remain.  

[Shi Qiang]

On 9/16/2020 at 4:06 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

OP

I am really not convinced by the Starks taking a dark turn. Either in the sense of it ending tragically or them becoming evil. All that will happen is a mid game passing through the shadow in which they emerge out the other side as complete individuals.

I mean they would have to do A LOT for most readers to do a double take on the Starks. This isn’t like Dany where half the fan base don’t like her, you have an entire lore book written demonising her bloodline and every other character calls her insane. George has been telling us to like these characters and relate to their struggle uncritically.

Short of Jon committing genocide on half the North to take power, or Sansa murdering children, or Arya becoming a sadist who enjoys watching the lights go out of the innocent, or Bran warging his noble court into drones and eating the hearts of babies to increase his power; readers won’t really care. If it’s just them doing bad things to bad people, after George spent three books extolling how they’ve been wronged; nobody will really bat an eyelid at it. People would hand wave collateral damage as they did with Rob Stark. More to the point, I don’t think George wants as dark a story as people think. We’re talking about a bit of edginess here at the most.

 

 I am convinced that these Starks are already on their way to becoming very dark.  It's my prediction for them.  How their fans react to them as they continue on this dark path is their choice. 

[Shi Qiang]

On 10/3/2020 at 8:17 AM, Kierria said:

George has not condemned an entire family.  If anything, he shows even a good side to the Boltons in Domeric.  The Greyjoys even have a white sheep in Asha.  It's not subtle or not subtle.  There is a message for us to ponder.  There are good and bad apples in every family.  It is my opinion but it seems to me this is one of the main ideas.  There are faults on every side and some kind of forgiveness is in order to address the looming problem of climate change.  The winter will be brutal to those who choose to pursue a policy of payback and isolation. 

This desire of their for payback is what makes Jon and Arya harmful.  They're serious about it.  Arya has the means to do great harm. 

[Aline de Gavrillac]

On 9/15/2020 at 2:51 AM, Ser Leftwich said:

"He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the hard grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible.  Death, he knew.  He was smelling death.  He cringed his back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs.

Don't be afraid, I like it in the dark.  No one can see you, but you can see them."

At this time Bran is hiding in the crypts under Winterfell and starting to practice skinchanging. He is only sort of in control of his powers. What and how much he con convey to Jon is limited, at best.

We have had the chapter where Theon fakes killing Bran and Rickon. The huge gap where there is no Bran chapter. This is just foreshadowing to the reader where Bran really is (under the rich brown earth and grey stone of Winterfell, death is in the crypts and death in Winterfell).

Nothing sinister.

 

It is sinister.  That's why the wolf's hairs stood out and bared his teeth.  He sensed something evil and foul. 

[Ser Leftwich]

Conclusion: I don't like the Starks and I think they will take a dark turn.

Premise: Find passage that associates Starks at all with death, darkness, fear, anything that can be interpreted as "bad," etc. , regardless of context, say it means they will "take a dark turn."

 

I don't disagree with the premise that some Starks might take dark turns (frankly, almost everyone will), only that this passage has nothing to do with that as foreshadowing. It explains where Bran physically was at the time, in the crypts, that is it.

[Pontius Pilate]

On 10/4/2020 at 11:52 PM, Allardyce said:

This desire of their for payback is what makes Jon and Arya harmful.  They're serious about it.  Arya has the means to do great harm. 

It screwed up Jon's decision making at the wall.  He killed a man who should have been sent to the cells and gave a pass to Mance.  Mance was the one who should have been executed.  Jon's heart was calling for Slynt's blood and emotion overcame any chance of a sound decision.

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

On 10/3/2020 at 8:17 AM, Kierria said:

George has not condemned an entire family.  If anything, he shows even a good side to the Boltons in Domeric.  The Greyjoys even have a white sheep in Asha.  It's not subtle or not subtle.  There is a message for us to ponder.  There are good and bad apples in every family.  It is my opinion but it seems to me this is one of the main ideas.  There are faults on every side and some kind of forgiveness is in order to address the looming problem of climate change.  The winter will be brutal to those who choose to pursue a policy of payback and isolation. 

Agreed, the families are not monolithic in character.  Every flock has an odd sheep or two.  Asha and Rodrik serve the purpose to steer the ironborn towards peace.  This role will fall to Bran to keep his revenge-crazy siblings like Jon and Arya under control.  The Stark future is the direwolf but the foundations to peace will need to be laid down in the meantime.

[Rosetta Stone]

The Starks will usher in the darkness and the cold.  Jon didn't mean to create problems at the wall but his affection for his Stark family drove him to make a lot of destructive decisions.  Bran will continue his progress into the Dark lord of winter. 

Rickon's fate will depend on the plans Wayman has for him.  I do not think Jon Snow will recover from that stabbing.  He will be brought back by the Others as a wight.  His secret sauce to avoid becoming their ice robot is Ghost.  His mind will have refuge in the wolf as his body goes into a very slow decay.  Coldhands lived as a wight for a long time.  I think Jon will too.  Arya will get her second chance in her wolf.  She will kill many in her insane pursuit of justice.  I think she too will die and live as a direwolf before the end of the novels.  Sansa will die with Littlefinger in the Vale. 

 

 

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

On 10/7/2020 at 5:26 AM, Ser Leftwich said:

Conclusion: I don't like the Starks and I think they will take a dark turn.

Premise: Find passage that associates Starks at all with death, darkness, fear, anything that can be interpreted as "bad," etc. , regardless of context, say it means they will "take a dark turn."

I couldn't agree more. It seems like there are Starks haters everywhere nitpicking on things that are not there. 

[TheLastWolf]

1 hour ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

I couldn't agree more. It seems like there are Starks haters everywhere nitpicking on things that are not there. 

Welcome to the crazy forum again 

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

4 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Welcome to the crazy forum again 

It worries me out, I joined the forums because of the lockdown and not be able to have a constructive discussion is boring annoying and daunting.

[Nathan Stark]

18 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

It worries me out, I joined the forums because of the lockdown and not be able to have a constructive discussion is boring annoying and daunting.

There's plenty of good discussion to go around on these forums. I do think the recent nastiness is borne partly out of quarentine borebom and partly because we don't have TWoW out to discuss, so the only real things available to discuss are decades old material. If we ever get Winds, I think folls will be more invested in the new material than in rehashing old arguments.

[CamiloRP]

3 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

It worries me out, I joined the forums because of the lockdown and not be able to have a constructive discussion is boring annoying and daunting.

I get ya.

If we don't come up with interesting new posts I guess we should search for old ones, comment in the ones that seem interesting and bring them back to life.

[Bowen 747]

Bran will use his skin changing powers to take control of the wights and use them to get even with the Lannisters and the Ironborn.  It is disgusting to use the dead like that but Bran is starting to move towards the darker side of things.

[TheLastWolf]

7 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

It worries me out, I joined the forums because of the lockdown and not be able to have a constructive discussion is boring annoying and daunting.

Don't worry, you are new and first impressions aren't the best. I too was disillusioned for a while, but interesting topics can never be overshadowed by dumpsterfires like this for long. 

14 hours ago, Rosetta Stone said:

The Starks will usher in the darkness and the cold.  Jon didn't mean to create problems at the wall but his affection for his Stark family drove him to make a lot of destructive decisions.  Bran will continue his progress into the Dark lord of winter. 

Rickon's fate will depend on the plans Wayman has for him.  I do not think Jon Snow will recover from that stabbing.  He will be brought back by the Others as a wight.  His secret sauce to avoid becoming their ice robot is Ghost.  His mind will have refuge in the wolf as his body goes into a very slow decay.  Coldhands lived as a wight for a long time.  I think Jon will too.  Arya will get her second chance in her wolf.  She will kill many in her insane pursuit of justice.  I think she too will die and live as a direwolf before the end of the novels.  Sansa will die with Littlefinger in the Vale. 

 

 

CPR to dumpsterfire