Are Margaery and Co. innocent or not?

[TheLastWolf]

Nagging doubt, guys.

Cersei's POVs in Feast show that Margaery and Co. were really what they had been accused of. But Cersei is half mad in Feast. But still...

The text shows that the Blue Bard's confessions were a surprise to Cersei and she felt that several names wouldn't do.

And Margaery and Co.'s females have lost heir maidenheads. It could mean nothing of course, with the riding they do. But did Cersei mean the "rides enjoyed" as horse rides or in bed?

And is Pycelle's confession about moon tea true?

Margaery seemed genuinely surprised and afraid when Cersei visited.

But many in the Forum think Margaery and Co. are innocent, but I'm not so sure.

Thoughts?

[John Suburbs]

I don't think Margaery is entirely innocent, but I doubt very much that she engaged in full-on orgies with her three cousins and all these men.

Pycelle's confession is interesting, but from the grilling Cersei gave him it isn't completely out of bounds for him to figure out what she was after. And even if it is true, remember that Cersei only learned of Pycelle's visits to the Maidenvault from Lady Taena, who is very likely a double agent working for Margaery, and by extension, Lady Olenna. So it seems to me that they would want Cersei to have the information about the moon tea, hoping she would make a mistake with it, which she does.

[Isobel Harper]

Quote

"Damn them, then," said Margaery. "Damn them all to seven hells. Alla is gentle and shy, how can they do this to her? And Megga . . . she laughs as loud as a dockside whore, I know, but inside she's still just a little girl. I love them all, and they love me. If this sparrow thinks to make them lie about me . . ."

"They stand accused as well, I fear. All three."

"My cousins?" Margaery paled. "Alla and Megga are hardly more than children. Your Grace, this . . . this is obscene. Will you take us out of here?"

Elinor is left out of this entire conversation, perhaps for a reason.  Margaery is not admitting anything but not lying either by omitting Elinor.

That said, technically these girls are all innocent, regardless of what they did.  Sex isn't a crime.  *shrug*

[Nathan Stark]

Even the whacko religious nutjobs who are putting on the mummers farce of a "trial" for Margaery have said that there is little evidence for the little queen's alleged transgressions. She's certainly not guilty of what Cercei says she is.

[GoldenGail3]

Considering it's Cersei accusing them, probably. Cersei is a wackerdoodle with a lot of hatred towards the Tyrells. She probably had something to do with Loras being supposedly near death. Supposedly on Dragonstone. Huh, I don't trust the words of a mad woman, me thinks. 

[Daena the Defiant]

10 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

Elinor is left out of this entire conversation, perhaps for a reason.  Margaery is not admitting anything but not lying either by omitting Elinor.

That said, technically these girls are all innocent, regardless of what they did.  Sex isn't a crime.  *shrug*

I've long thought that Ellinor, the only cousin with a betrothed, was the person for whom Margaery was procuring the moon tea.  

[SeanF]

Margarey has every reason to be afraid when Cersei arrives.  She thinks (correctly) that Cersei has set her up to be killed, on the basis royal adultery is treason.

The Faith thinks the evidence against Margaery is weak.  I think it unlikely that she would be so reckless as to have a lover.  

[frenin]

15 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

That said, technically these girls are all innocent, regardless of what they did.  Sex isn't a crime.  *shrug*

Tell that to Cersei's walk of shame because she dared to bone after her husband died.

Margaery is married to the King, if she's guilty she's guilty of treason.

But no, i don't believe the charges.

[TheLastWolf]

12 minutes ago, frenin said:

But no, i don't believe the charges.

I'm leaning towards the same, but it's too early to dismiss them offhand, don't you think? 

[Isobel Harper]

4 hours ago, frenin said:

Tell that to Cersei's walk of shame because she dared to bone after her husband died.

Margaery is married to the King, if she's guilty she's guilty of treason.

But no, i don't believe the charges.

Yeah, my comment was a little... anachronistic.

In THIS world, under the particular people in power, women are being punished for agency over there bodies/sexuality.  But ought not be.

I can think of many things to punish Cersei for.  Having sex outside of marriage isn't one of them.  (And unfortunately the only reason she did the walk of shame.  Her other charges are to be addressed at a later trial.)

[Lord Lannister]

There is a marked difference between being innocent and not guilty of the allegations. Yes, chances are all of them have had sex at one point or another. Surprise, people do that. The moon tea Pycelle supposedly made for Margaery is the closest thing to real evidence, and he's so much of a toady, he might have just been telling Cersei what she wanted to hear there.

[corbon]

11 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

chances are all of them have had sex at one point or another.

I strongly doubt that.

11 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

, people do that.

They do now.
In an age where medicine is significantly less capable, birth control less effective and less freely available, and the cost of an unexpected pregnancy significantly greater than our own, while some people did do that, many did not.
Do not be misled by the propaganda our foolish society feeds us. Sex has consequences, small or large, for both participants. While past societal strictures may have been too strong, or unfairly applied, there were there for good reasons. And largely, though not entirely of course, worked.

11 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

The moon tea Pycelle supposedly made for Margaery is the closest thing to real evidence,

I'm in the camp of that likely being for Ellinor.

[Kiszka]

Elinor is the oldest cousin the other two are pretty young to be having sex. Imagine if poor Lady Bulwer had been dragged into this? I doubt Margaery would risk her family's life by sleeping with Tallad the Tall or the other men who gravitated to the young queen. 

[Daena the Defiant]

I shall quote myself in archaic post I wrote some time ago:

 

Quote

 

In fact, I have developed a theory that while Elinor was betrothed to her nice Ambrose boy, she was secretly deflowered and knocked up by the Bastard of Driftmark, hence the  need for the Moon Tea.

 

Here are a selection of highly subjective quotes arranged in a way that supports my no-evidence theory:

 

"Closest to Sansa's own age were the cousins Elinor, Alla, and Megga, Tyrells from junior branches of the House. "Roses from lower on the bush," quipped Elinor, who was witty and willowy. Megga was round and loud, Alla shy and pretty, but Elinor ruled the three by right of womanhood; she was a maiden flowered, whereas Megga and Alla were mere girls."

 

"As for Elinor, she was promised to a young squire, a son of Lord Ambrose; they would be wed as soon as he won his spurs. He had worn her favor in the Battle of the Blackwater"

 

"Margaery was dancing with her cousin Alla, Megga with Ser Tallad the Tall. The other cousin, Elinor, was sharing a cup of wine with the handsome young Bastard of Driftmark, Aurane Waters. It was not the first time the queen had made note of Waters, a lean young man with grey-green eyes and long silver-gold hair. "

 

"Others come to pay court to her cousins. Elinor is promised to the Ambrose boy, but loves to flirt,

 

 

 

[Isobel Harper]

23 minutes ago, Daena the Defiant said:

I shall quote myself in archaic post I wrote some time ago:

 

 

 

I agree that's possible or perhaps Tallad.

Quote

Ser Osmund shrugged. "Singers. She's a fool for singers and jugglers and such. Knights, come round to moon over her cousins. Ser Tallad's the worst, Osney says. That big oaf don't seem to know if it's Elinor or Alla he wants, but he knows he wants her awful bad."

If it were someone else besides her betrothed, that is.

[Endymion I Targaryen]

I too believe Margaery is partially innocent. I mean she is not virgin and I believe she consumated her marriage with Renly but she had no lover after marrying Tommen.

[Curled Finger]

I want Margaery to be guilty, but just can't do it.   She's given me no indication that she is interested in much of anything other than being Queen.  I can't see her caring that much about sex she would risk her crown for it.   She's not stupid.  The cousins all sound like a bunch of normal squealing preteen and teen-aged girls. Sure one or more of them could have had an um experience, but would she encourage it?  I doubt it.  That moon tea bit with Pycell stinks.  I think he lied, of course we won't ever know, will we?

[TheLastWolf]

4 hours ago, Endymion I Targaryen said:

I mean she is not virgin and I believe she consumated her marriage with Renly

Margaery probably knew about Renly and Loras and went along with the marriage sham because at that time Renly was the clear fav to win the war (before Stannis and Meli's shadow baby struck) and it ensured high posts for Highgarden (from Loras to Willas, Mace to Garlan and Garth, all would have enjoyed power if Renly got the throne). So I think NO.

4 hours ago, Endymion I Targaryen said:

but she had no lover after marrying Tommen.

No way to be certain.

4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I think he lied, of course we won't ever know, will we?

You think so? He may be dead, but there is Balerion after all.

[Daena the Defiant]

On 9/16/2020 at 4:05 PM, Isobel Harper said:

Elinor is left out of this entire conversation, perhaps for a reason.  Margaery is not admitting anything but not lying either by omitting Elinor.

That said, technically these girls are all innocent, regardless of what they did.  Sex isn't a crime.  *shrug*

Ah, but if you recall, they got arrested at some service of the Faith, a rite on Maiden's Day in which only virgins are allowed to participate,  

For the unmarried cousins, the fact that they are potentially unchaste is not illegal, but would be socially embarrassing.  But they are charged for a Ecclesiastical Crime.  Margaery's position is different. Tyrell Co. insisted that she was a virgin when they pimped her out to Tommen, so if she is no longer virgo intacto, then the implication is that she was committing adultery and that is treasonous to the King.

[Back door hodor]

On 9/16/2020 at 2:24 AM, TheLastWolf said:

Nagging doubt, guys.

Cersei's POVs in Feast show that Margaery and Co. were really what they had been accused of. But Cersei is half mad in Feast. But still...

The text shows that the Blue Bard's confessions were a surprise to Cersei and she felt that several names wouldn't do.

And Margaery and Co.'s females have lost heir maidenheads. It could mean nothing of course, with the riding they do. But did Cersei mean the "rides enjoyed" as horse rides or in bed?

And is Pycelle's confession about moon tea true?

Margaery seemed genuinely surprised and afraid when Cersei visited.

But many in the Forum think Margaery and Co. are innocent, but I'm not so sure.

Thoughts?

I think Marge herself is actually innocent. Her and Olenna are too smart to have Margaery actually sleeping around, or even have a single lover.

Probably at least one of the cousins did actually sleep with someone, maybe more than one cousins and just maybe more than one someone but I think the charges,  as they are, mostly trumped up to be honest.