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TheLastWolf

Are Margaery and Co. innocent or not?

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I think the Blue Bard is Willas in disguise (his gammy leg disguised by his custom-made high boots). 

Quote

His father had been a chandler and Wat was raised to that trade, but as a boy he found he had more skill at making lutes than barrels.

(AFfC Ch39 Cersei IX)

A chandler is a candle maker, a cooper makes barrels. There is quite a difference between making lutes and playing them, too. 

He is sticking to his story because the real story for him being at King's Landing is clearly one that Highgarden would rather Cersei did not know.

It seems to me that Margaery's hawking, boating, mushroom-gathering parties out of King's Landing are about giving and receiving messages from Loras at Dragonstone, and from their captains at the Arbor and the Reach. The men recruited to these frolics might or might not yet be aware they are chosen because of their military skills and uncertain loyalties. (Or more certainly loyal to Margarey than Cersei).

Cersei doesn't realise that the Swyft girl is a spy for her father, and of course Dorcas is Margarey's plant, and in love (or loyal to?) Ser Horas or Ser Hobber.  One of these handmaids are feeding Cersei and Ser Boros poisonous wine that is bloating them and making them nauseous and tiring them at the slightest exertion and giving them dry mouth and dizzy spells.

Cersei went into withdrawal when she was imprisoned by the faith, (the improvement in her health concealed from her by the improvement in her prison conditions after she confessed).

I don't know if the poisoner is aware the wine (or the spices in it/hypocras?) is poisoned. But I am guessing it is Dorcas, who loves a Redwyne, and who replaced Senelle, whose chief duty was wine pouring.

Anyway, I am guessing the moon tea from Maester Pycelle has something to do with this slow poisoning, although he may well have been under the impression he was discreetly providing contraceptives to Cersei, for herself or her handmaiden. 

Margarey is too smart and too focused on promoting the Highgarden interest to be doing anything that would require moon tea, and we know from Sansa's point of view that her cousins are as innocent as they seem to be.

ETA: Elinor and Aurane is an interesting possibility - she could be acting as a raven to deliver the Roses another naval force. I don't think Aurane has simply taken to piracy, but he seemed to me to be more likely to control and manipulate Cersei than vise versa. I think the same would go for Elinor, if the roses were not vigilantly protecting her reputation and keeping her growing strong.

Edited by Walda

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A lot of interesting ideas here.

5 hours ago, Walda said:

I think the Blue Bard is Willas in disguise (his gammy leg disguised by his custom-made high boots). 

(AFfC Ch39 Cersei IX)

A chandler is a candle maker, a cooper makes barrels. There is quite a difference between making lutes and playing them, too. 

He is sticking to his story because the real story for him being at King's Landing is clearly one that Highgarden would rather Cersei did not know.

I'm not sure why Willas himself would be in disguise in King's Landing, not sure I'm buying this one.  However, the contradictions in his origins are an interesting catch.  Littlefinger has been known to use singers "against" the Tyrells before (Loras joining the KG) so perhaps one of his spies?

5 hours ago, Walda said:

 

Cersei went into withdrawal when she was imprisoned by the faith, (the improvement in her health concealed from her by the improvement in her prison conditions after she confessed).

I don't know if the poisoner is aware the wine (or the spices in it/hypocras?) is poisoned. But I am guessing it is Dorcas, who loves a Redwyne, and who replaced Senelle, whose chief duty was wine pouring.

Anyway, I am guessing the moon tea from Maester Pycelle has something to do with this slow poisoning, although he may well have been under the impression he was discreetly providing contraceptives to Cersei, for herself or her handmaiden. 

 

Tansy is one of the main ingredients of moon tea (and the ingredient highlighted as most important by our author by having Hoster Tully repeat it so often on his death bed).  It's also toxic in high doses and, like Sweetsleep is described by Colemon, it sits in the tissue for a long time.

5 hours ago, Walda said:

ETA: Elinor and Aurane is an interesting possibility - she could be acting as a raven to deliver the Roses another naval force. I don't think Aurane has simply taken to piracy, but he seemed to me to be more likely to control and manipulate Cersei than vise versa. I think the same would go for Elinor, if the roses were not vigilantly protecting her reputation and keeping her growing strong.

If the moontea were for anyone, I'm also assuming for Elinor.  Maybe due to her and Aurane or maybe Tallad the Tall, the later whom Osmund describes as "wants her awful bad," having some kind of relationship.

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19 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

If the moontea were for anyone, I'm also assuming for Elinor.  Maybe due to her and Aurane or maybe Tallad the Tall, the later whom Osmund describes as "wants her awful bad," having some kind of relationship.

I think it'd be funny if the person Elinor was sleeping with is Alyn Ambrose.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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13 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I'd think it'd be funny if the person Elinor was sleeping with is Alyn Ambrose.

This!!  :lol:  I've considered this as well, and honestly is the more likely scenario.  Their parents (for whatever reason) want them to marry once Alyn officially becomes a knight.  They probably just didn't want to wait! 

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15 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I'd think it'd be funny if the person Elinor was sleeping with is Alyn Ambrose.

Oh, but I think that is so much less likely to be panic inducing for Elinor and Alyn. The shotgun wedding and the very early birth that has onlookers counting off the months on their fingers are old as time.   Westeros noble society has a whole subset of gossip about it and even one well known poorly kept secret that has permeated folklore about Lady Plumm and her husband's six foot schlong.

Whereas, if Elinor falls pregnant by someone other than Alyn, Alyn knows they haven't had sex yet and that's the problem.  

Edited by Daena the Defiant

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Did Osney Kettleblack seduce Margaery or not? His denials seemed weak. 

Edited by TheLastWolf

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3 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Did Osney Kettleblack seduce Margaery or not? His denials seemed weak. 

Do you really think he's capable of that?
By that I mean who would you back to win a battle of wits/social skills - Margery or Osney?

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2 hours ago, corbon said:

Do you really think he's capable of that?
By that I mean who would you back to win a battle of wits/social skills - Margery or Osney?

Seduction is not a battle of wits or social skills. I think Osney is capable of seducing a teenager. He isn't particularly ugly either. Good looking according to the text.

And how much ever Margaery puts family prestige and honor and power over her own desires, she is bound to err. We saw that with Dany and Daario. We saw that with besotted Sansa. She is just another teenager and no one knows the stupidity of teens better than another teen (me). 

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On 9/23/2020 at 6:21 PM, TheLastWolf said:

Did Osney Kettleblack seduce Margaery or not? His denials seemed weak. 

Margarey knew the scars on his face were not won in a battle against a man. Osney is so charmless he can barely bully Cersei into putting out.  I think he has no chance with Margarey. Although he probably doesn't know that.

Edited by Walda
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10 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Seduction is not a battle of wits or social skills.

At that level, with that much at stake? 
Yes, it is.

10 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

I think Osney is capable of seducing a teenager. He isn't particularly ugly either. Good looking according to the text.

We are't talking any old teenager here.We are talking the King's wife. Off with her head if she's caught, potentially.

10 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

And how much ever Margaery puts family prestige and honor and power over her own desires, she is bound to err.

Is she? Why? Because modern teenagers with so little on the line have little self control? Quite a few of them do, even with so little on the line.

I think you have a very very different understanding of what we are talking about here.

10 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

We saw that with Dany and Daario.

Dany is the power. There is no comparison there.

10 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

We saw that with besotted Sansa.

No we didn't. 
Sansa hasn't slept with anyone.

10 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

She is just another teenager

Twice a queen is not just another teenager. Especially not with the Queen of Thorns as a mentor.

10 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

and no one knows the stupidity of teens better than another teen (me). 

You don't leave a lot of room to reply to that without condescension. :D

I seriously don't mean any. But there is a heck of a lot more to learn than you've experienced. And noble kids in that culture grow up a heck of a lot faster than any teen possibly could in our culture.
Yes, they can make mistakes because of youth and hormones. But they are also vastly more experienced and matured - in some ways - than any modern teen.

No, I think Maergery Tyrell could run rings around Osney with her eyes shut. No way in a million years he's getting into her pants.

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Some teens are that clueless...Katharine Howard comes to mind. She fooled around and was beheaded. She had a sick mentor. If she fell pregnant, though, she might have been okay as long as Henry VIII thought he could be the father. Margarey is much more like Anne Boleyn and they even probably chose the actress that way.

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5 hours ago, corbon said:

Sansa hasn't slept with anyone.

I meant the Joffrey obsession and her running to Cersei. It was part of her character arc, from naive girl to GoT player. 

5 hours ago, corbon said:

You don't leave a lot of room to reply to that without condescension. :D

It's OK. 

5 hours ago, corbon said:

No, I think Maergery Tyrell could run rings around Osney with her eyes shut. No way in a million years he's getting into her pants.

Thanks you

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19 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

Some teens are that clueless...Katharine Howard comes to mind. She fooled around and was beheaded. She had a sick mentor. If she fell pregnant, though, she might have been okay as long as Henry VIII thought he could be the father. Margarey is much more like Anne Boleyn and they even probably chose the actress that way.

Oh, I think history is becoming more kind to Katherine Howard.  She was raised in what was essentially a boarding school for noble girls and the inattentive noble matron who was supposed to guiding the upbringing of the girls in her charge did not do anything whatsoever to prevent her charges from being molested at a very young age by her kinsman.   Katherine probably suffered from any of the common psychological traumas of victims of sexual abuse, which may include low self esteem, acquiescence to male authority and equating sexual abuse with affection.  She's really one of English royal history's most tragic victims. 

Edited by Daena the Defiant

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Yes, Katharine Howard was a victim as you say. Her family used her as bait to get rid of Cromwell and Reformers. Henry probably liked her youth and sexiness. He believed that she was virginal. He might have even liked her lack of education, though he didn’t choose that afterwards. Henry was a lot like Trump as a use and discard kind of person. Katharine was even coached and enabled to fool around by Jane Rochford( and others) who was quite a wretched person.

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Katharine Howard and Margaery are very different though. We can't use her example to guess what Margaery might have done. 

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Even though more than half (arguably) support Margaery being innocent, I think she's guilty to an extent

Edited by TheLastWolf

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On 9/28/2020 at 10:35 AM, TheLastWolf said:

Even though more than half (arguably) support Margaery being innocent, I think she's guilty to an extent

Here's more proof that hint at her guilt. 

"She likes his face. She touched his scars two days ago, he told me. ‘What woman gave you these?’ she asked. Osney never said it was a woman, but she knew. Might be someone told her. She’s always touching him when they talk, he says. Straightening the clasp on his cloak, brushing back his hair, and like that. One time at the archery butts she had him show her how to hold a longbow, so he had to put his arms around her. Osney tells her bawdy jests, and she laughs and comes back with ones that are even bawdier. No, she wants him, that’s plain, but...”

That but trails of to how she's never alone. 

Edited by TheLastWolf
But

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1 hour ago, TheLastWolf said:

Here's more proof that hint at her guilt. 

"She likes his face. She touched his scars two days ago, he told me. ‘What woman gave you these?’ she asked. Osney never said it was a woman, but she knew. Might be someone told her. She’s always touching him when they talk, he says. Straightening the clasp on his cloak, brushing back his hair, and like that. One time at the archery butts she had him show her how to hold a longbow, so he had to put his arms around her. Osney tells her bawdy jests, and she laughs and comes back with ones that are even bawdier. No, she wants him, that’s plain, but...”

That but trails of to how she's never alone. 

She's a mistress manipulator and a young attractive woman but also a skilled politician. Just because she likes to flirt does not correlate to the fact that she is willing to commit treason and jeopardize  her family's master plan to have a Tyrell scion on the Iron Throne that involved them committing to an open insurrection against one king, throwing in a with a second and marrying out their darling daughter to three kings.

 

She's not stupid. 

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On 9/28/2020 at 2:05 AM, TheLastWolf said:

I think she's guilty to an extent

Guilty of what, exactly? Guilty as in you believe she has had sex after marrying Tommen? 

8 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Here's more proof that hint at her guilt. 

I think you are too attached to the text and missing the subtext. In literature in general and in asoiaf in particular not everything is spelled out. It's not only to what's written that you should pay attention, but also to how it's written, in what context, with what pacing, making use of what images and references and metaphors, and, maybe most important of all, you should also pay attention to what is not written, to what is omitted by the author. Reading is peeling layers, and I'm under the impression you are looking only at the surface of the text and taking it at face value. 

Edited by Lady Dacey

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Margaery will die a virgin.

"You'll be pleased to know she came to me a maid."

>"In your bed she's like to die that way."

- ACOK, Catelyn III

"Lord Tyrell swears the girl's still maiden."

"She can die a maiden as far as I'm concerned. I don't want her, and I don't want your Rock!"

- ASOS, Jaime VII.

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