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Angel Eyes

What if Ned let Cersei keep Lady's pelt?

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Well, i think that would have been a bad decision. 

It would have provided Sansa with a constant reminder of what she lost and i believe that Cersei would have worn it/displayed it quite often, for that exact purpose. Plus, it would have also sent a wrong message to the northern's that were with Ned in King's Landing and to the northern lords, once they would have heard. 

I believe it would have further increased the distance in relationship, between Ned and Sansa. 

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31 minutes ago, Alex13 said:

Well, i think that would have been a bad decision. 

It would have provided Sansa with a constant reminder of what she lost and i believe that Cersei would have worn it/displayed it quite often, for that exact purpose. Plus, it would have also sent a wrong message to the northern's that were with Ned in King's Landing and to the northern lords, once they would have heard. 

I believe it would have further increased the distance in relationship, between Ned and Sansa. 

But Sansa didn't get the message of how bad Cersei and Joffrey were. Why not show her the consequences of lying to to the court about what happened?

Seriously, what did Ned need to do to make her understand?

Edited by Angel Eyes

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6 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

But Sansa didn't get the message of how bad Cersei and Joffrey were. Why not show her the consequences of lying to to the court about what happened?

She already faced consequences for that, once Lady was killed. Cersei being allowed to have the pelt, would have rubbed it in her face and added salt to the wound.

She already disliked Arya and the chasm between them got larger, due to Arya sending Nymeria away so nothing can happen to her, which led to Lady being killed. And in her mind frame at the time, i don't think that Sansa would have gotten further away from Cersei, but she would have distanced herself more from her father and try to please Cersei more, even though she requested the Lady be killed, even though she didn't do anything. 

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14 minutes ago, Alex13 said:

She already faced consequences for that, once Lady was killed.

And she brushed that off by blaming it on Arya.

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I think it was a huge enough hit to his prestige to have to kill his own daughter's pet for the Queen.  Having her constantly taunting him with the pelt would have reduced him even further.  A King's Hand that is not respected will not be effective.  Ned didn't seem to understand this at all.   Poor man had no idea what he was getting into.  Sometimes I really wonder how he led the North for as long as he did.

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5 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

And she brushed that off by blaming it on Arya.

Well, if Arya wouldn't have chased Nymeria, then Nymeria would have been executed and Lady would have lived and most probably be sent back to Winterfell.

4 hours ago, argonak said:

I think it was a huge enough hit to his prestige to have to kill his own daughter's pet for the Queen.  Having her constantly taunting him with the pelt would have reduced him even further.  A King's Hand that is not respected will not be effective.  Ned didn't seem to understand this at all.   Poor man had no idea what he was getting into.  Sometimes I really wonder how he led the North for as long as he did.

That's true. I think that Ned believed that if he tells people the truth and is honorable, then people will be the same with him and he didn't want to play the game of thrones, because he found it dishonorable, not knowing that his inaction/ his refusal to play the game, could be used by the other players. 

I think that Ned was a good administrator, but a bad politician. And he manged to lead the North, because of what happened in the Rebellion and because he had the loyalty of the houses or most of the houses. Maybe Roose tried to make some moves and possibly garner some support, but he probably realised that he can't get enough, because the lords were loyal to Ned. Plus, Ned's friendship with Robert, the fact that he had plenty of children with Catelyn and that Catelyn was the daughter of another Lord Paramount, helped Ned in maintaining and leading the North, even if he didn't know about it. 

And from what i could gather, the northern lords aren't exactly adept at the political games. 

Edited by Alex13

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3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

But Sansa didn't get the message of how bad Cersei and Joffrey were. Why not show her the consequences of lying to to the court about what happened?

Seriously, what did Ned need to do to make her understand?

Sansa is too selfish to get the message.  She will only see that as daddy being cruel.  Ned will become the bad guy in her eyes. Jeffrey remains the golden prince in her mind. He is her ticket to becoming queen.  She wants to be queen like Cersei.  Her eyes are not going to be opened easily.  

Edited by Moiraine Sedai

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Frankly, Ned isn't a sick fuck. And letting Cercei wear your daughters dead pet's hide after killing it is a twisted thing to do. Like Ramsay Bolton level psychological torment. Ned loved his daughter, regardless of how childish and immature she was at the time. And you don't subject people you love to gruesome reminders of their beloved pet that you killed.

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Consistent with the Bolton flaying tradition, we see Roose Bolton hunt wolves and order their skin made into garments.

After Ramsay marries fArya / Jeyne, we see the poor girl hiding in a pile of wolf skins in the corner of her bedchamber.

Roose and Ramsay are Stark-wannabees. And Jeyne is forced to play the role as well.

Giving the direwolf skin to Cersei would be the equivalent of marrying her - in Westeros, the giving of a cloak is central to the wedding ceremony.

Furthermore, the direwolf Lady is symbolic of Lyanna. We have reason to believe that both Rhaegar and Robert loved and desired Lyanna. Cersei wanted to marry Rhaegar and ended up marrying Robert but she never measured up to Lyanna in Robert's eyes. Giving her the skin would symbolize Cersei fulfilling her desire to be attractive to Rhaegar / Robert.

In other words, Ned would never give that wolf skin to Cersei.

I even wonder whether the direwolf, Lady, is the fulfillment of the "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" rule. Since she is buried in the lichyard instead of the crypt, she may still count as a presence in the castle.

I also agree with the comments that Sansa would not learn anything new about honesty and good behavior if Ned gave the skin to Cersei. It would cause her to resent her father, not to feel a new anger toward Cersei or Joffrey.

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32 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

Frankly, Ned isn't a sick fuck. And letting Cercei wear your daughters dead pet's hide after killing it is a twisted thing to do. Like Ramsay Bolton level psychological torment. Ned loved his daughter, regardless of how childish and immature she was at the time. And you don't subject people you love to gruesome reminders of their beloved pet that you killed.

Ramsay Bolton-level? Give me a break, Ned doesn't rape women, lock them in a tower and leave them to chew their own fingers off. What I'm suggesting is not on his level, Sansa needed a reality check lower than Ned getting his head chopped off. What else was going to make her understand?

Edited by Angel Eyes

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34 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Ramsay Bolton-level? Give me a break, Ned doesn't rape women, lock them in a tower and leave them to chew their own fingers off. What I'm suggesting is not on his level, Sansa needed a reality check lower than Ned getting his head chopped off. What else was going to make her understand?

Do you own any pets? Have any kids who own and love their pets? I can tell you that Sansa losing Lady was an awful enough experience without her father somehow making the thing worse by offering the skin of her pet to Cercei. Sansa was 11. The only lesson she would have taken from seeing Cercei wearing Lady's hide is that her father, in addition to killing Lady, skinned her made her pelt a gift to the queen. I'm frankly baffled about what lesson you think Sansa would be meant to understand by that action. I think it would certainly be Ramsay level sick to subject your daughter to watching Cercei flounce around wearing her pet's skin.

Edited by Nathan Stark

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9 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

Do you own any pets? Have any kids who own and love their pets? I can tell you that Sansa losing Lady was an awful enough experience without her father somehow making the thing worse by offering the skin of her pet to Cercei. Sansa was 11. The only lesson she would have taken from seeing Cercei wearing Lady's hide is that her father, in addition to killing Lady, skinned her made her pelt a gift to the queen. I'm frankly baffled about what lesson you think Sansa would be meant to understand by that action. I think it would certainly be Ramsay level sick to subject your daughter to watching Cercei flounce around wearing her pet's skin.

No it wasn't.

Sansa saw Joffrey take bare steal against her sister that was half his age, swing and miss several times, until being put down by Nymeria, left at the mercy of Arya, only for Arya to throw away the sword and leave him alone, but Sansa still remained on the side of Joffrey. Then during the meeting with Robert she saw Cersei calling for the head of her wolf, but later on for some morinic reason she still putting the blame on Arya, while still having a mad crush for Joffrey and using Cersei as confident.

Cersei parading the skin on her face might be the reality check she needed. 

Edited by Arthur Peres

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What reality check? Are we even reading the same books here? Because it seems pretty obvious to me that Sansa was always going to remain in denial about Joffrey and Cercie until she was being physically tormented by them. It took Joff ordering her father's execution right in front of her to knock some sense into Sansa's head. Sansa chose to blane Arya and Ned for Lady's death. The only thing Ned giving Cercie Lady's pelt to wear would have accomplished is to give spoiled, self-absorbed Sansa another reason to be angry with Ned and Arya.

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That is the point.

Lady's fur on Cersei's shoulder should be a sign hard to ignore, and it should do the trick of breaking that ilusion, even if Sansa tries to ignore it, would be impossible. 

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1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

The reality check for Sansa would be imediatly and constant, and she could not pin this on Arya or Ned since would be Cersei throwing it at her face.

Don't know if would make much a difference overrall, but Sansa would be much less idiot.

 

I'm not so sure. Sansa ignored a lot of Joffrey's deplorable character traits early on because she was infatuated with him. I could easily see Sansa twisting it in her mind to pin the blame on her father for letting it happen. Cersei might even be smart enough to see that and use it as a lever to manipulate Sansa even further against her father. 

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3 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

I'm not so sure. Sansa ignored a lot of Joffrey's deplorable character traits early on because she was infatuated with him. I could easily see Sansa twisting it in her mind to pin the blame on her father for letting it happen. Cersei might even be smart enough to see that and use it as a lever to manipulate Sansa even further against her father. 

She would need to be more blind than Aemon, dumber than Victarion, madder than Aerys, and more delusional than Jaime to push the events on this direction. lol

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6 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

She would need to be more blind than Aemon, dumber than Victarion, madder than Aerys, and more delusional than Jaime to push the events on this direction. lol

I mean this is the mind of a young girl in love we're talking about. :p

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40 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

 

Do you own any pets? Have any kids who own and love their pets? I can tell you that Sansa losing Lady was an awful enough experience without her father somehow making the thing worse by offering the skin of her pet to Cercei. Sansa was 11. The only lesson she would have taken from seeing Cercei wearing Lady's hide is that her father, in addition to killing Lady, skinned her made her pelt a gift to the queen. I'm frankly baffled about what lesson you think Sansa would be meant to understand by that action. I think it would certainly be Ramsay level sick to subject your daughter to watching Cercei flounce around wearing her pet's skin.

Yes I do have pets, and I've tried to not piss someone off enough for them to want their pelt.

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