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Alyn Oakenfist

Westerosi high nobility is probably horribly inbred

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So all noble families are inbred, be it in Westeros or IRL. There are only so many people you can marry if you want to marry to your high status. But here Westeros is special. Their levels of elitism are through the roof. Take the Freys for example. They have been along for 600 years, and yet people consider them upstarts. So if the high lords are reticent to marry their children to someone with a meager 600 years pedigree, can you imagine how high the inbreeding coefficient must be. So what do you think? Is the fact that the entirety of Westerosi nobility doesn't have the Habsburg chin a plothole, or are they somehow less inbred then they seem?

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21 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So all noble families are inbred, be it in Westeros or IRL. There are only so many people you can marry if you want to marry to your high status. But here Westeros is special. Their levels of elitism are through the roof. Take the Freys for example. They have been along for 600 years, and yet people consider them upstarts. So if the high lords are reticent to marry their children to someone with a meager 600 years pedigree, can you imagine how high the inbreeding coefficient must be. So what do you think? Is the fact that the entirety of Westerosi nobility doesn't have the Habsburg chin a plothole, or are they somehow less inbred then they seem?

 

I don’t think George as a writer would want to tar the reputation of the Northern Houses and Starks. Like, ten families inter marrying exclusively with each other until the reign of Jahaerys? Its a wonder they don’t have hind legs and fur.

But in all seriousness. Rule of cool. Ancient houses with unbroken lineage is cool. So it exists and works. Otherwise the Starks should have no more original Stark blood than most of the North. 

As much as it would be funny for the Starks to be that hypocritical in them slamming the Targaryens for incest when they’re growing extra rows of teeth; I don’t think that’s George being subtle and meta. I don’t think he’s thought too seriously about how blindingly pure the Stark bloodline must be. 

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Well yes, the thing is that when you look like Daenerys, Cersei, Renly, Loras or Sansa you don't really realize that, if they all look like Charles V of Germany...

 

8 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

But in all seriousness. Rule of cool. Ancient houses with unbroken lineage is cool. So it exists and works. Otherwise the Starks should have no more original Stark blood than most of the North. 

 

Basically.

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1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So all noble families are inbred, be it in Westeros or IRL. There are only so many people you can marry if you want to marry to your high status. But here Westeros is special. Their levels of elitism are through the roof. Take the Freys for example. They have been along for 600 years, and yet people consider them upstarts. So if the high lords are reticent to marry their children to someone with a meager 600 years pedigree, can you imagine how high the inbreeding coefficient must be. So what do you think? Is the fact that the entirety of Westerosi nobility doesn't have the Habsburg chin a plothole, or are they somehow less inbred then they seem?

It explains why they have such common traits in family.. like the Baratheons with black hair and blue eyes. Lannister's with green eyes and golden locks... Hmm, how do they keep such traits if not for inbreeding?

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1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So all noble families are inbred, be it in Westeros or IRL. There are only so many people you can marry if you want to marry to your high status. But here Westeros is special. Their levels of elitism are through the roof. Take the Freys for example. They have been along for 600 years, and yet people consider them upstarts. So if the high lords are reticent to marry their children to someone with a meager 600 years pedigree, can you imagine how high the inbreeding coefficient must be. So what do you think? Is the fact that the entirety of Westerosi nobility doesn't have the Habsburg chin a plothole, or are they somehow less inbred then they seem?

I think that is implicitly there with all those 'family looks' we have not just for the Targaryens and Valyrian houses, but especially the Lannisters, the Starks, the Baratheons, and to a lesser extent the Arryns, Freys, Tyrells, etc.

The idea would be that the the former royal houses of the Seven Kingdoms predominantly intermarried with their own bannermen and vassals who, in turn, would also be the people marrying their daughters, ensuring that the Starks and Lannisters almost exclusively married cousins to various degrees even if they did not marry cousins bearing their names (which the Starks and Lannisters do often enough in the family trees we have).

That would be how the Starks developed a distinct and recognizable look and it would be how the Lannisters preserved their blond/golden hair they had since Lann the Clever ... his many descendants spread those traits throughout the Westerlands, and his descendants would marry each other in the centuries and millennia to come.

One imagines that if Ned's Tully-looking children did have offspring then a majority of them would resemble Ned and the other typical Starks, with the Tully and Westerling look not taking root in the bloodline.

It isn't mentioned, but there should be many blondes with Lannister looks in the West, both among the smallfolk as well as noble houses closely related to the Lannisters, just as in the North many a Northman would look sort of Starkish without that being important or a big deal because he just doesn't have the name.

With the Starks it is breath-taking how they are focused on a very small pool of eligible marriage candidates. It is not just mostly Northmen, it is a rather limited set of Northmen. There are no Boltons and no Dustins in the Stark family tree, for instance. And the only non-Westerwoman among the Lannister matches is Rohanne Webber.

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6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There are no Boltons and no Dustins in the Stark family tree, for instance

The Boltons are the Starks second most powerful bannerman. The Starks and Boltons should have many marriages together. 

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6 minutes ago, GoldenGail3 said:

The Boltons are the Starks second most powerful bannerman. The Starks and Boltons should have many marriages together. 

Or they are deliberately sidelined by the Starks because they are viewed as untrustworthy, abominable people.

Oh, I definitely think there must have been marriages between those two houses, it cannot be helped, if only as part of a submission deal when they were first subdued by the Starks or later when one of their rebellions failed.

But it doesn't seem the Starks are keen to intermarry with them these days. Nor the Dustins, for that matter.

I'm not sure the Boltons are the second most powerful Northern house after the Starks. They are powerful, but the Manderlys, Karstarks, and Dustins could be more powerful or just as powerful as the Boltons. Especially since the Red Kings of old apparently controlled much larger territories than the Boltons do today.

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1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

Or they are deliberately sidelined by the Starks because they are viewed as untrustworthy, abominable people.

Oh, I definitely think there must have been marriages between those two houses, it cannot be helped, if only as part of a submission deal when they were first subdued by the Starks or later when one of their rebellions failed.

But it doesn't seem the Starks are keen to intermarry with them these days. Nor the Dustins, for that matter.

I'm not sure the Boltons are the second most powerful Northern house after the Starks. They are powerful, but the Manderlys, Karstarks, and Dustins could be more powerful or just as powerful as the Boltons. Especially since the Red Kings of old apparently controlled much larger territories than the Boltons do today.

I thought they were second most powerful? 

The Manderly's are the richest bannerman, true. But I'm not sure about most powerful. The Karstarks possibly could be, which is why it was such a loss to Robb when the Karstark levies left him after he killed Rickard. The Dustins probably not or else Robb would've noticed that Barbrey Dustin didn't send him all of her levies. I think it's fair to say that House Bolton has the greatest military strength out of them all which is why they weren't wiped out during one of their rebellions. 

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13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Or they are deliberately sidelined by the Starks because they are viewed as untrustworthy, abominable people.

If that's the case, why is Oberyn's concubine the baseborn daughter of the Dornish Boltons? 

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27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But it doesn't seem the Starks are keen to intermarry with them these days.

And I would guess the Boltons wouldn't want that either, as they likely think of the Starks as "less than humans".

 

15 minutes ago, GoldenGail3 said:

If that's the case, why is Oberyn's concubine the baseborn daughter of the Dornish Boltons? 

How are the Ullers the Dornish Boltons? Aren't the Yronwoods the Dornish Boltons?

 

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48 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Charles II the Bewitched would be the standart if Incest in a Asoif had the same consequences of our world.

Yet look at the Lannisters and Baratheons. 

Ofc that it would've been far harder to sell it even for Martin himself.

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8 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

How are the Ullers the Dornish Boltons? Aren't the Yronwoods the Dornish Boltons?

 

The Ullers live in a place called Hellhot. They burn their oppositions inside. The Dornish literally have a saying about them, 'half the Ullers are mad and the other half is worse'. They are the Dornish Boltons by definition of the word. 

Edited by GoldenGail3

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4 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

And I would guess the Boltons wouldn't want that either, as they likely think of the Starks as "less than humans".

The Boltons probably have a history with shape shifters, me gunna take a guess. Probably had to do with how House Stark took over the rest of the North, through making massive warging armies that destroyed anything in their path. 

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5 minutes ago, GoldenGail3 said:

The Ullers tortured Queen Rhaenys to death and they live in a place where the lake is acid? They also burn people to death in their castle? I was saying this because House Uller and House Bolton share a mutual passion for torturing others. 

Oh, but the Ullers constantly side with house Nymeros-Martell, while the Boltons betrayed the Starks and used to hunt them down like dogs.

The Ullers are allies. The Boltons of Dorne (to House Nymeros-Martell) would be the Yronwoods, as they fought eachother over and over for the control of Dorne and even The Seven Kingdoms.

 

4 minutes ago, GoldenGail3 said:

The Boltons probably have a history with shape shifters, me gunna take a guess. Probably had to do with how House Stark took over the rest of the North, through making massive warging armies that destroyed anything in their path. 

Sure. The more reason to not want to marry into their family. There are only two GRRM stories that involve skinning (that I'm aware). The Dying Of The Light and The Skin Trade. Spoilers for both those stories. Neither are GRRM's best, but both are really good.

 

Spoiler

In the former shapeshifters were skinned to see what was inside of them, and they were considered less than human, in the latter, shapeshifters were skinned to steal their powers from them. I think this are both valid explanations for the Boltons, but I think the first one is the most likely.

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, CamiloRP said:

Oh, but the Ullers constantly side with house Nymeros-Martell, while the Boltons betrayed the Starks and used to hunt them down like dogs.

The Ullers are allies. The Boltons of Dorne (to House Nymeros-Martell) would be the Yronwoods, as they fought eachother over and over for the control of Dorne and even The Seven Kingdoms.

That is true but the Ullers and Boltons would sip tea together on how to next best torture their victims next though. The Ullers share Boltons like of torment and making people fear them. House Uller and House Yronwood are both bolton of the sands. One has the same relationship with House Martell as House Bolton shares with the Starks, whilst the Ullers share their spirit.  I would still consider Oberyns concubine to be a daughter of a sandy bolton house, given how many similarities they share.

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4 minutes ago, GoldenGail3 said:

That is true but the Ullers and Boltons would sip tea together on how to next best torture their victims next though. The Ullers share Boltons like of torment and making people fear them. House Uller and House Yronwood are both bolton of the sands. One has the same relationship with House Martell as House Bolton shares with the Starks, whilst the Ullers share their spirit.  I would still consider Oberyns concubine to be a daughter of a sandy bolton house, given how many similarities they share.

Yes, the difference is likely that House Nymeros-Martell doesn't care as much as house Stark about the torture, as long as it isn't done to them.

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25 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Yes, the difference is likely that House Nymeros-Martell doesn't care as much as house Stark about the torture, as long as it isn't done to them.

The Boltons would think it was pretty funny that it took two Dornish houses to replace them though. 

The Yrnwoods: 'So you like us in actions and not liking & rebelling against your liege lord. cool, you torture mate? we torture. our knives are sharp matie'

The Ullers: 'whats the fun in being loyal? why not rebel like us? oh wait you live in a place called hellhot where you burn your competitors alive and the river your castle resides next to is poisonous. WAIT you killed and tortured Queen Rhaenys and her huge dragon? other dornish house refer to you as either mad or worse? what an honor, spirit dornish house, even though your not as mighty as us. we mightiest of all the norths bannerman besides for those dratted starks though. we want the north. we don't want to be loyal pets to our liege lord. sorry to say your not on our level mini version of us, you just wanna be a pet tool to scare other dornish houses into oblivion' 

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1 hour ago, GoldenGail3 said:

The Boltons would think it was pretty funny that it took two Dornish houses to replace them though. 

The Yrnwoods: 'So you like us in actions and not liking & rebelling against your liege lord. cool, you torture mate? we torture. our knives are sharp matie'

The Ullers: 'whats the fun in being loyal? why not rebel like us? oh wait you live in a place called hellhot where you burn your competitors alive and the river your castle resides next to is poisonous. WAIT you killed and tortured Queen Rhaenys and her huge dragon? other dornish house refer to you as either mad or worse? what an honor, spirit dornish house, even though your not as mighty as us. we mightiest of all the norths bannerman besides for those dratted starks though. we want the north. we don't want to be loyal pets to our liege lord. sorry to say your not on our level mini version of us, you just wanna be a pet tool to scare other dornish houses into oblivion' 

hahahahahha

Tho every kingdom has it's own Yronwood/Bolton. The Reynes for Westerlands, the Freys for Riverlands, Velaryon for the crownlands (at least they used to be)have no idea of the rest tho. 

For The Vale I think would be House Royce, to they seem like allies. Same thing in The Reach with houses Redwyne and Hightower, tho might it be Florent? Harlaw seems pretty powerful in the Iron Islands, but they married into the Greyjoys.

But for The Stormlands I don't even have a candidate, same with The Westerlands post Tywin and The Crownlands post rebellion. 

 

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