Why Mirri Maz Duur was in the wrong

[Tyrion1991]

A lot of people really fixate on this episode of Danys story. They’re very much lured into the idea of one of the self professed little people talking truth to power. Mirri was set up as one of those nameless people who wasn’t going to be trampled by another woman on her heroes journey. So she became fates correction and then with stoic humility accepted death. In this way George made the character a martyr who saved the world by killing the Stallion who would Mount the World.

Dany is the only character to have such an interrogation and denunciation of their goals and character. Tyrion is put on trial, but they just lie about him. You could never imagine Rob Stark or Jon being so completely ripped apart and I don’t ever expect a Stark to be put on the naughty step like this by the author.

But anyway, why is Miri wrong?

Her village was being raided by another Khal. Drogo simply appeared and took the slaves. Then, Dany, concerned for their treatment decides to confront her husband to change his ways. Dany did not give the order and was not aware this would occur. Upon seeing this she immediately expresses concerns; considering  this is a thirteen year old girl it’s unreasonable to hold her at fault. She’s the Khals child bride, not a mastermind who ordered the Lhazreen to suffer. So fundamentally she’s attacking the wrong people. Her actual attackers get away with it and she isn’t even interested in revenge on them. Which probably means she was more interested in killing Danys baby than any injury the Dothraki did to her.

Mirri attempts to argue that Dany expected gratitude from this. That’s spin and distorting the facts. Dany didn’t expect somebody to try to murder her husband and child. A reasonable expectation most sane people extend to one another. Because Dany never demanded gratitude Miri does not get to say that she did to make herself out to be a hero.

Mirri believes she is an agent of divine retribution. As a result she is unconcerned with the consequences of her actions. Hundreds, possibly thousands of innocents would be killed as a result of the dispersal of Khal Drogos Khalassar. For example some of Danys handmaidens are killed by Drogos bloodriders. Many of them her own people and slaves. When Mirri tells Dany she has nothing to live for what she’s really saying is that she’s fine dragging everyone else down into hell with her. Their lives don’t matter to her. That is evil. 

Plus she prematurely ended any possibility of Dany changing the Dothraki. Given that Dany goes on to abolish slavery wherever she goes and will very likely do this with the Dothraki then Mirri is even more foolish. Her actions will mean that for many more years millions of people suffered and died under slavery. Again, her own people suffering. Whilst she professes that she is a worm and her own life doesn’t mean anything she’s decided that their lives also don’t matter when set against her revenge.

Given that several of the freed slaves follow Dany into the desert, clearly even her own country folk from that village were not of the same view as her. So she made this decision herself to make them suffer. She is not speaking for the common people at all. 

Basically she causes a monstrous amount of suffering for millions of people so that she can lash out at a third party three times removed and get back at them. She is not a hero. This is wanting to watch the world burn and laugh maniacally. She’s a hypocrite. How many more women will suffer because of her actions? Her excuse is to blame this all on Dany which isn’t even clever. 

She then tries to make the case that by killing Danys child she murdered the Stallion who will Mount the World. Thus sparring humanity the desolation of war. Firstly, only an idiot trusts prophecy in this universe. So she has no idea what she’s talking about and is an idiot to make such a leap. Secondly, there is War all around her. Her village would have died without Dany and her child. She has changed nothing. She has achieved nothing. It does not matter whether there is one tyrant or a thousand Tyrants. She is an idiot trying to justify her murder. For somebody who just said there was nothing left for them she sure is determined to argue that she did a great thing saving the thing she claims to be unimportant. Humble people shouldn’t grand stand so much and make these sort of excuses.

So she’s an arrogant, pompous windbag who makes a lengthy speech gloating on how she taught Dany a lesson and how she’s the hero here. 

Shes a hypocrite for using the Greater Good argument to use violence against an innocent person. By that logic there’s nothing wrong with destroying her village and people if it enhances my groups power.  Danys way of trying to change things for the better is one hope. Mirri is advocating despair. 

I know some people will suggest I should be more sympathetic to Mirri. But, no. Millions suffer as a result of her actions. She is an ignorant fool like every spell caster in the series. She doesn’t care about anybody else other than her own petty revenge. She wants the world to burn. All so she can punish somebody who isn’t even involved in the incident and claim that she saved the world by killing her child. That’s kind of crazy and messed up. 

 

 

 

 

[frenin]

2 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Dany did not give the order and was not aware this would occur.

She knew someone had to pay the price for getting to Westeros, even if she chose to close her eyes to the very obvious.

Dany is not by any means, the main culprit of the fate of the Lhazareen, Drogo is, or to the upcoming war with Westeros, Robert and Drogo are. But she sure as hell did everything in her power to convince Drogo to war against Robert to take her Throne and she did capitalize Robert's attempt to her needs. Which makes her guilty, in a small part but still guilty, of the fate of the Lamb people.

 

2 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

considering  this is a thirteen year old girl it’s unreasonable to hold her at fault.

How comes??

 

2 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

So fundamentally she’s attacking the wrong people. Her actual attackers get away with it and she isn’t even interested in revenge on them. Which probably means she was more interested in killing Danys baby than any injury the Dothraki did to her.

She sees no difference between Dany and the Dothraki, she sees them as the same and her help meaningless, even when Dany and part of the fandom believe otherwise.

 

Quote

“This was no god’s work,” Dany said coldly. If I look back I am lost. “You cheated me. You murdered my child within me.” “The stallion who mounts the world will burn no cities now. His khalasar shall trample no nations into dust.” “I spoke for you,” she said, anguished. “I saved you.” “Saved me?” The Lhazareen woman spat. “Three riders had taken me, not as a man takes a woman but from behind, as a dog takes a bitch. The fourth was in me when you rode past. How then did you save me? I saw my god’s house burn, where I had healed good men beyond counting. My home they burned as well, and in the street I saw piles of heads. I saw the head of a baker who made my bread. I saw the head of a boy I had saved from deadeye fever, only three moons past. I heard children crying as the riders drove them off with their whips. Tell me again what you saved.” “Your life.” Mirri Maz Duur laughed cruelly. “Look to your khal and see what life is worth, when all the rest is gone.”

 

 

2 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Mirri attempts to argue that Dany expected gratitude from this.

No, she doesn't. Dany indeed expects gratitude, which is why she's so shocked.

 

2 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

That’s spin and distorting the facts. Dany didn’t expect somebody to try to murder her husband and child

She is shocked that someone's whose world was ruined by her husband and who is told that her child would be x10 times worse would kill them??

 

 

2 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Mirri believes she is an agent of divine retribution. As a result she is unconcerned with the consequences of her actions. Hundreds, possibly thousands of innocents would be killed as a result of the dispersal of Khal Drogos Khalassar. For example some of Danys handmaidens are killed by Drogos bloodriders. Many of them her own people and slaves. When Mirri tells Dany she has nothing to live for what she’s really saying is that she’s fine dragging everyone else down into hell with her. Their lives don’t matter to her. That is evil. 

And how many would've die otherwise?? Drogo planned on raiding people to fund an even more destructive war against the might of Westeros.

What makes you think that allowing Drogo to keep breathing is going to safe more lives.

She's weighing the outcomes she can tell and deciding that a world without Drogo and Rhaego is preferable. 

It's selfish, egocentric and short sighted, ironically. Evil tho?? I don't think so.

 

2 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Plus she prematurely ended any possibility of Dany changing the Dothraki.

How??

 

2 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Given that Dany goes on to abolish slavery wherever she goes and will very likely do this with the Dothraki then Mirri is even more foolish. Her actions will mean that for many more years millions of people suffered and died under slavery. Again, her own people suffering. Whilst she professes that she is a worm and her own life doesn’t mean anything she’s decided that their lives also don’t matter when set against her revenge.

Dany decides to abolish slavery after she herself tried to buy slaves... To war against Joffrey. Which is pretty much unrelated with Mirri.

That he had an army and a khalassar in the first place, was directly because of Mirri's sacrifice.

 

 

2 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Given that several of the freed slaves follow Dany into the desert, clearly even her own country folk from that village were not of the same view as her. So she made this decision herself to make them suffer. She is not speaking for the common people at all.

Were those slaves freed?? I didn't remember. But you're forgetting two things.

1. Mirri never claimed to speak for any other than her.

2. Dany becoming the Unburnt and the Mother of Dragons, was a massive game changer for everyone.

 

 

2 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

She is not a hero

True.

 

2 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

She’s a hypocrite.

No, that she's def not.

 

2 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

How many more women will suffer because of her actions?

How many more women will be spared because of her actions?? Given that you're so keen on using hindsight, without Mirri's actions there are no Dragons, no fight against slavery, no Dany, no Dragons against the Others, no nothing.

 

2 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Firstly, only an idiot trusts prophecy in this universe. 

Fair enough. Planetos is full of idiots anyway, because prophecies tend to be believed to the letter.

With a mix of outcomes, from saving your whole family to killing your family. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

She has changed nothing. She has achieved nothing. 

How do you know that?? If Dany's vision was any type of indication...

 

Quote

Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman’s name …

 

 

Quote

 It does not matter whether there is one tyrant or a thousand Tyrants. She is an idiot trying to justify her murder.

Why??

 

Quote

Shes a hypocrite for using the Greater Good argument to use violence against an innocent person. 

Greater good or lesser evil rationalizations are given in those kind of contexts.

 

Quote

By that logic there’s nothing wrong with destroying her village and people if it enhances my groups power. 

If you consider that to be the greater good... Then, no.

 

Quote

Danys way of trying to change things for the better is one hope. Mirri is advocating despair. 

At that point, Dany is only trying to take Westeros.

 

Quote

Millions suffer as a result of her actions. 

And millions can also be or were outright saved as a result of her actions.

 

@the Other Wolf

Nah, the Mirri argument is quite recurrent.

 

[the Other Wolf]

@frenin you cannot reason with this individual. They have really thick blinders on and interpret this story thru their hatred of GRRM, the Starks and everything not Tyrion. 

Thank you for taking the time to try and explain it to them, but unfortunately it was a waste of time.

Even Ran has asked why 1991 is even reading this story.

[Curled Finger]

Mirri comes off as a weirdo.  However, reading through the OP one is reminded that this humble witch was actually well-educated.  She may really have believed the hype about Rhaego and manifest her belief in the same way Melisandre sees in her fires or some clairvoyant dragon dreamers or the Ghost of High Heart.  God help us all, Patchface even.  So why not Mirri Maz Dur?  I'll be honest, I never believed she thought Rhaego was anything other than the firstborn of a powerful Khal.  Killing this child weakens Drogo or even something extreme, like getting rid of Dany because Mirri is bitter.  Despite the kindnesses Dany extends, this woman responds in poison.   Mirri has no interest in helping Dany or the Dothraki.  Perhaps she felt her grief so strong and powerful that she could not face the days ahead in this tribe of butchers.  Too bad she didn't also envision the dragons and her part in bringing them forth.  

[SeanF]

MMD was right to be furious at what happened to her and her people, and she was entitled to strike at Khal Drogo.

She was wrong to strike against Daenerys or her unborn child.  Against Daenerys, because  the latter did not possess command responsibility for the actions which took place at Mirri's town.  14 year old brides do not possess a great deal of agency in this world, especially among the Dothraki. Reponsibility for atrocities rests with those who order them, and those who carry them out.  The extent of Daenerys' "war guilt" was to advocate war in Westeros, as opposed to Drogo favouring war around the Jade Sea (which would have taken him straight through Lhazar in any case). Blaming Daenerys would be like blaming Joanna Lannister for what was done to the Reynes, Lady Frey for the Red Wedding, or Jeyne Westerling for the behaviour of Robb Stark's soldiers.

If you're looking for third parties to blame, who actually planned and organised for war in Westeros, and were directly or indirectly party to negotiations for Daenerys being wed in return for a Khalasar, then Varys, Illyrio, Jon Connington, Harry Strickland, and Viserys are the obvious culprits.  If you want to point to a single individual whose actions converted war from a theoretical possibility to an actual one, then Robert Baratheon is to blame, for his botched murder attempt.

An unborn child is obviously not to blame for the actions of his father, or his father's men.  The fact that a child might grow up to be a threat is not sufficient justification to kill that child in the womb.  This really should not need stating.  What threat could this child be, anyway, if Drogo was in a vegetative state?

That said, I would not expect someone who had suffered, as MMD did,  to make these distinctions.  As far as she was concerned, Daenerys and Rhaego were simply the enemy, as much as Drogo.

[Tyrion1991]

51 minutes ago, frenin said:

She knew someone had to pay the price for getting to Westeros, even if she chose to close her eyes to the very obvious.

Dany is not by any means, the main culprit of the fate of the Lhazareen, Drogo is, or to the upcoming war with Westeros, Robert and Drogo are. But she sure as hell did everything in her power to convince Drogo to war against Robert to take her Throne and she did capitalize Robert's attempt to her needs. Which makes her guilty, in a small part but still guilty, of the fate of the Lamb people.

 

How comes??

 

She sees no difference between Dany and the Dothraki, she sees them as the same and her help meaningless, even when Dany and part of the fandom believe otherwise.

 

 

 

No, she doesn't. Dany indeed expects gratitude, which is why she's so shocked.

 

She is shocked that someone's whose world was ruined by her husband and who is told that her child would be x10 times worse would kill them??

 

 

And how many would've die otherwise?? Drogo planned on raiding people to fund an even more destructive war against the might of Westeros.

What makes you think that allowing Drogo to keep breathing is going to safe more lives.

She's weighing the outcomes she can tell and deciding that a world without Drogo and Rhaego is preferable. 

It's selfish, egocentric and short sighted, ironically. Evil tho?? I don't think so.

 

How??

 

Dany decides to abolish slavery after she herself tried to buy slaves... To war against Joffrey. Which is pretty much unrelated with Mirri.

That he had an army and a khalassar in the first place, was directly because of Mirri's sacrifice.

 

 

Were those slaves freed?? I didn't remember. But you're forgetting two things.

1. Mirri never claimed to speak for any other than her.

2. Dany becoming the Unburnt and the Mother of Dragons, was a massive game changer for everyone.

 

 

True.

 

No, that she's def not.

 

How many more women will be spared because of her actions?? Given that you're so keen on using hindsight, without Mirri's actions there are no Dragons, no fight against slavery, no Dany, no Dragons against the Others, no nothing.

 

Fair enough. Planetos is full of idiots anyway, because prophecies tend to be believed to the letter.

With a mix of outcomes, from saving your whole family to killing your family. 

 

 

How do you know that?? If Dany's vision was any type of indication...

 

 

 

Why??

 

Greater good or lesser evil rationalizations are given in those kind of contexts.

 

If you consider that to be the greater good... Then, no.

 

At that point, Dany is only trying to take Westeros.

 

And millions can also be or were outright saved as a result of her actions.

 

@the Other Wolf

Nah, the Mirri argument is quite recurrent.

 

 

The issue comes in the very first village they encounter. Dany does not close her eyes they’re very open and she disputes this immediately. Most people in that age would not have batted an eyelid.

Shes a thirteen year old girl who is trying to sway her war like husband. I doubt she was consulted regarding how the money would be waged and once she found out she was horrified. That’s not complicity. In fact Jorah explains this to her as it begins; so she’s clearly not been told how they’ll get to Westeros.

Also, in Mirri’s view, Dany is the main culprit because her actions are intended to teach Dany a lesson. She didn’t just slip a knife into Drogo, she went out of her way to kill the child and teach Dany a lesson.

Shes very ignorant and stupid to lump the child bride and the baby with the Dothraki Warlord. Oh sorry your honour. I was angry at the bad man so I murdered their child and left his wife with nothing. Then gave her a lecture afterwards. That’s sick and twisted.

Dany does not demand thanks from Mirri. She says I spared you, why would you kill my baby? That’s not the same thing I saved you now worship me. Mirri is trying to make herself out to be a victim and martyr here.

If you assume Dany is going to fail to convince Drogo to find another way. With foreknowledge of Danys later decisions regarding slavery it’s more than reasonable to assume that she would not be a danger to the Lhazarren. Mirri actions prevent this from happening. People die as a result of Mirri. 

If you assume that Mirri has correctly interpreted the prophecy and we have zero reason to assume she has any understanding of insight into these things. No character has successfully read the future. So she’s killing a baby based on poor evidence and faulty judgement.

You seem to believe that Mirri did some public service and changed the world by murdering Khal Drogo and Rhaego. Firstly, Dothraki have been killing and enslaving people for millennia and unless some silver haired Queen tells them to stop that’s not likely to change for a few thousand more. This has nothing to do with making the world a safer place for her people. It’s vanity that a murderer would make claims like that.

So she hasn’t saved anybody. Has gotten a lot more people killed. Has the blood of two innocents on her hands. 

It’s ridiculous to give Miri credit for Danys future actions or the birth of the dragons. Especially when this was not her intent. Dany came to that conclusion herself and any blood would have sufficed. She was already having Dragon dreams and those eggs were going to hatch anyway. All Miri did was provide a convenient source of fuel.

 

[Tyrion1991]

22 minutes ago, SeanF said:

MMD was right to be furious at what happened to her and her people, and she was entitled to strike at Khal Drogo.

She was wrong to strike against Daenerys or her unborn child.  Against Daenerys, because  the latter did not possess command responsibility for the actions which took place at Mirri's town.  14 year old brides do not possess a great deal of agency in this world, especially among the Dothraki. Reponsibility for atrocities rests with those who order them, and those who carry them out.  The extent of Daenerys' "war guilt" was to advocate war in Westeros, as opposed to Drogo favouring war around the Jade Sea (which would have taken him straight through Lhazar in any case). Blaming Daenerys would be like blaming Joanna Lannister for what was done to the Reynes, Lady Frey for the Red Wedding, or Jeyne Westerling for the behaviour of Robb Stark's soldiers.

If you're looking for third parties to blame, who actually planned and organised for war in Westeros, and were directly or indirectly party to negotiations for Daenerys being wed in return for a Khalasar, then Varys, Illyrio, Jon Connington, Harry Strickland, and Viserys are the obvious culprits.  If you want to point to a single individual whose actions converted war from a theoretical possibility to an actual one, then Robert Baratheon is to blame, for his botched murder attempt.

An unborn child is obviously not to blame for the actions of his father, or his father's men.  The fact that a child might grow up to be a threat is not sufficient justification to kill that child in the womb.  This really should not need stating.  What threat could this child be, anyway, if Drogo was in a vegetative state?

That said, I would not expect someone who had suffered, as MMD did,  to make these distinctions.  As far as she was concerned, Daenerys and Rhaego were simply the enemy, as much as Drogo.

 

I’d agree with that. Angry person who lashed out at Khal Drogo. Nothing more, nothing less. Predictable. Boring. 

But a lot of people really idolise this character. There’s  tons of articles elaborating on why she’s a compelling challenge to Danys world view and in the right. Again I think people love the notion of an ordinary person punching up and talking truth to power. It’s so intoxicating that people don’t take issue humouring a child murderer. 

Although i think if a wronged peasant had murdered Jeyne Westerling’s child and Rob Stark people would hold a very different opinion. 

[Shierak Qiya]

16 minutes ago, SeanF said:

MMD was right to be furious at what happened to her and her people, and she was entitled to strike at Khal Drogo.

She was wrong to strike against Daenerys or her unborn child.  Against Daenerys, because  the latter did not possess command responsibility for the actions which took place at Mirri's town.  14 year old brides do not possess a great deal of agency in this world, especially among the Dothraki. Reponsibility for atrocities rests with those who order them, and those who carry them out.  The extent of Daenerys' "war guilt" was to advocate war in Westeros, as opposed to Drogo favouring war around the Jade Sea (which would have taken him straight through Lhazar in any case). Blaming Daenerys would be like blaming Joanna Lannister for what was done to the Reynes, Lady Frey for the Red Wedding, or Jeyne Westerling for the behaviour of Robb Stark's soldiers.

If you're looking for third parties to blame, who actually planned and organised for war in Westeros, and were directly or indirectly party to negotiations for Daenerys being wed in return for a Khalasar, then Varys, Illyrio, Jon Connington, Harry Strickland, and Viserys are the obvious culprits.  If you want to point to a single individual whose actions converted war from a theoretical possibility to an actual one, then Robert Baratheon is to blame, for his botched murder attempt.

An unborn child is obviously not to blame for the actions of his father, or his father's men.  The fact that a child might grow up to be a threat is not sufficient justification to kill that child in the womb.  This really should not need stating.  What threat could this child be, anyway, if Drogo was in a vegetative state?

That said, I would not expect someone who had suffered, as MMD did,  to make these distinctions.  As far as she was concerned, Daenerys and Rhaego were simply the enemy, as much as Drogo.

Tyrion1991 is really working hard to bring out the Dany haters.  That is clearly the intention behind this thread.  It also brings out the Daenerys supporters like me. 

I agree with you for the most part.  Mirri had a right to be angry at Drogo and the Dothraki.  She had no right to take her anger out on Daenerys and Rhaego.  The Dothraki did not just start raiding villages.  This is something they have done for centuries.  The blame for what happened to Mirri's village is on Drogo and the Dothraki.  As well as the men you listed. 

Mirri is an adult with reasonable intelligence.  She should be able to make the distinction between the guilty and the innocent.  So yes, I do condemn her for what she did to Daenerys and Rhaego.  I would have executed her too.

[SeanF]

20 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

I’d agree with that. Angry person who lashed out at Khal Drogo. Nothing more, nothing less. Predictable. Boring. 

But a lot of people really idolise this character. There’s  tons of articles elaborating on why she’s a compelling challenge to Danys world view and in the right. Again I think people love the notion of an ordinary person punching up and talking truth to power. It’s so intoxicating that people don’t take issue humouring a child murderer. 

Although i think if a wronged peasant had murdered Jeyne Westerling’s child and Rob Stark people would hold a very different opinion. 

I think that such a wronged peasant - say, Pretty Pia - would attract zero sympathy, in-universe. They would die horribly.

12 minutes ago, Shierak Qiya said:

Tyrion1991 is really working hard to bring out the Dany haters.  That is clearly the intention behind this thread.  It also brings out the Daenerys supporters like me. 

I agree with you for the most part.  Mirri had a right to be angry at Drogo and the Dothraki.  She had no right to take her anger out on Daenerys and Rhaego.  The Dothraki did not just start raiding villages.  This is something they have done for centuries.  The blame for what happened to Mirri's village is on Drogo and the Dothraki.  As well as the men you listed. 

Mirri is an adult with reasonable intelligence.  She should be able to make the distinction between the guilty and the innocent.  So yes, I do condemn her for what she did to Daenerys and Rhaego.  I would have executed her too.

I would not expect someone who had been on the receiving end of the sort of suffering that MMD received to make that distinction.  But, that does not make her actions right.

[Tyrion1991]

3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I think that such a wronged peasant - say, Pretty Pia - would attract zero sympathy, in-universe. They would die horribly.

I would not expect someone who had been on the receiving end of the sort of suffering that MMD received to make that distinction.  But, that does not make her actions right.

 

I was talking about sympathy from the readers not in universe.

[Shierak Qiya]

Just now, SeanF said:

I would not expect someone who had been on the receiving end of the sort of suffering that MMD received to make that distinction.  But, that does not make her actions right.

An injustice begets more injustice.  Grief can push people over the edge of reason and make them do horrible things to the innocent. 

[Shierak Qiya]

I think most readers would agree that Mirri wronged Dany and Rhaego.  Drogo had it coming but not those two.  It's wrong to murder someone for what you think they might do in the future.  Cersei would have been wrong to murder Tyrion, even if she believed he was a possible valonquar.  He has not done anything to be guilty of.

[CamiloRP]

@Tyrion1991 Dany is directly profiting from war and slavery and she knows it, she's far from innocent.

Tho, did Mirri really betray Dany? She told Drogo to not touch his wound and not to drink alcohol, but he puts mud in it and gets wasted. She told Dany that no one should enter the tent, yet she enters.

I think she was trying to gain Dany's trust by healing Drogo, but it backfired so she started speaking truth to power.

[SeanF]

5 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

@Tyrion1991 Dany is directly profiting from war and slavery and she knows it, she's far from innocent.

Tho, did Mirri really betray Dany? She told Drogo to not touch his wound and not to drink alcohol, but he puts mud in it and gets wasted. She told Dany that no one should enter the tent, yet she enters.

I think she was trying to gain Dany's trust by healing Drogo, but it backfired so she started speaking truth to power.

To a degree, any highborn woman in this story profits from the injustices that the men of her family carry out.  But, such women have much less agency than their husbands/fathers/brothers. They usually have no choice who they marry, and neither divorce, nor separation, nor earning an independent living are options.   None of them are in the position of Carmela Soprano, who had other options, but chose to profit from Tony's crimes.

[Tyrion1991]

Just now, CamiloRP said:

@Tyrion1991 Dany is directly profiting from war and slavery and she knows it, she's far from innocent.

Tho, did Mirri really betray Dany? She told Drogo to not touch his wound and not to drink alcohol, but he puts mud in it and gets wasted. She told Dany that no one should enter the tent, yet she enters.

I think she was trying to gain Dany's trust by healing Drogo, but it backfired so she started speaking truth to power.

 

She didnt plan this and at the first village she protests them doing this. For a 13 year old child bride not privy to her husbands war making until Jorah tells her that’s pretty far removed from the act. 

Yes. I think she knew what was going on and how events would transpire. She doesn’t deny guilt so it was all an elaborate mind game.

When you have the option to claim ignorance?

 

[frenin]

24 minutes ago, SeanF said:

14 year old brides do not possess a great deal of agency in this world, especially among the Dothraki.

They possess the level of agency their husbands decide to give them and Dany started to have more and more as time passed on.

 

26 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Reponsibility for atrocities rests with those who order them, and those who carry them out.

And with those who instigate them.

 

 

28 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The extent of Daenerys' "war guilt" was to advocate war in Westeros, as opposed to Drogo favouring war around the Jade Sea (which would have taken him straight through Lhazar in any case).

Which is indeed enough. The Lhazareen may or may not have been targetted anyway, but when they were indeed targetted was to fund Dany's war.

 

 

31 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Blaming Daenerys would be like blaming Joanna Lannister for what was done to the Reynes, Lady Frey for the Red Wedding, or Jeyne Westerling for the behaviour of Robb Stark's soldiers.

None of them instigated any kind of violent retaliation/war. Dany did. 

 

 

33 minutes ago, SeanF said:

If you're looking for third parties to blame, who actually planned and organised for war in Westeros, and were directly or indirectly party to negotiations for Daenerys being wed in return for a Khalasar, then Varys, Illyrio, Jon Connington, Harry Strickland, and Viserys are the obvious culprits.  If you want to point to a single individual whose actions converted war from a theoretical possibility to an actual one, then Robert Baratheon is to blame, for his botched murder attempt.

Sure, all of them are guilty to a significant higher degree than Dany, that does not mean that she is not.

But it makes little sense trying to blame Varys, Illyrion or JonCon while trying to exonerate Dany when all four were playing the exact same game. Egging Drogo into invading Westeros.

 

 

36 minutes ago, SeanF said:

An unborn child is obviously not to blame for the actions of his father, or his father's men.  The fact that a child might grow up to be a threat is not sufficient justification to kill that child in the womb.  This really should not need stating.  What threat could this child be, anyway, if Drogo was in a vegetative state?

Is not sufficient justification to whom?? 

 

 

16 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

The issue comes in the very first village they encounter. Dany does not close her eyes they’re very open and she disputes this immediately. Most people in that age would not have batted an eyelid.

She closed her eyes to the fact that a village would be targetted to fund her war, she closes her eyes until she can't do it anymore.

 

 

17 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Shes a thirteen year old girl who is trying to sway her war like husband. I doubt she was consulted regarding how the money would be waged and once she found out she was horrified. That’s not complicity. In fact Jorah explains this to her as it begins; so she’s clearly not been told how they’ll get to Westeros.

She is a 13 year old, she isn't stupid however, she very much knows how the Dothraki get the money and Jorah does not have to explain her anything that she doesn't know. In fact, the only thing Jorah tells Dany that she does not know is where are they going to get the best price for their newly acquired products.  She very much understands the rest and it's never made vague anyway.

 

Quote

Across the road, a girl no older than Dany was sobbing in a high thin voice as a rider shoved her over a pile of corpses, facedown, and thrust himself inside her. Other riders dismounted to take their turns. That was the sort of deliverance the Dothraki brought the Lamb Men. I am the blood of the dragon, Daenerys Targaryen reminded herself as she turned her face away. She pressed her lips together and hardened her heart and rode on toward the gate. “Most of Ogo’s riders fled,” Ser Jorah was saying. “Still, there may be as many as ten thousand captives.” Slaves, Dany thought. Khal Drogo would drive them downriver to one of the towns on Slaver’s Bay. She wanted to cry, but she told herself that she must be strong. This is war, this is what it looks like, this is the price of the Iron Throne. “I’ve told the khal he ought to make for Meereen,” Ser Jorah said. “They’ll pay a better price than he’d get from a slaving caravan. Illyrio writes that they had a plague last year, so the brothels are paying double for healthy young girls, and triple for boys under ten. If enough children survive the journey, the gold will buy us all the ships we need, and hire men to sail them.”

 

 

30 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Also, in Mirri’s view, Dany is the main culprit because her actions are intended to teach Dany a lesson. She didn’t just slip a knife into Drogo, she went out of her way to kill the child and teach Dany a lesson.

That's not true, the targets are, if they were ever really targetted in the first place, Drogo and Rhaego,  Dany is simply caught up in the middle, but Mirri simply states that her help was meaningless to her, as she had already lost everything.

 

 

33 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Shes very ignorant and stupid to lump the child bride and the baby with the Dothraki Warlord. Oh sorry your honour. I was angry at the bad man so I murdered their child and left his wife with nothing. Then gave her a lecture afterwards. That’s sick and twisted.

What??

 

33 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Dany does not demand thanks from Mirri. She says I spared you, why would you kill my baby? That’s not the same thing I saved you now worship me. Mirri is trying to make herself out to be a victim and martyr here.

You did not argued that nor did i. Dany does expect gratitude from Mirri and Mirri is saying that she's not grateful for nothing. She's not trying to make herself the victim, she's a victim. 

 

 

36 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

If you assume Dany is going to fail to convince Drogo to find another way. With foreknowledge of Danys later decisions regarding slavery it’s more than reasonable to assume that she would not be a danger to the Lhazarren. Mirri actions prevent this from happening. People die as a result of Mirri. 

I can't follow your reasoning.  

 

1.  Dany's later decisions are not/don't have to be the same if she actually had lived ¿happily ever after? with Drogo.
2. Dany was quite neutral regarding slavery, she had grown up with them in her life anyway, until she sees the horror of Yunkai.

 

The hindsight Dany you're using as argument simply can't exist without Mirri. 

 

40 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

If you assume that Mirri has correctly interpreted the prophecy and we have zero reason to assume she has any understanding of insight into these things. No character has successfully read the future. So she’s killing a baby based on poor evidence and faulty judgement.

A lot of characters have successfully read the future, the most prominent is Daenys Targ. How we have zero reasons to assume her knowledge when she's the one teaching Dany??

 

 

42 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

You seem to believe that Mirri did some public service and changed the world by murdering Khal Drogo and Rhaego. Firstly, Dothraki have been killing and enslaving people for millennia and unless some silver haired Queen tells them to stop that’s not likely to change for a few thousand more. This has nothing to do with making the world a safer place for her people. It’s vanity that a murderer would make claims like that.

No, I don't seem to believe that, i'm just stating that your reasoning cuts both ways.

You're using hindsight to make a point, that's absurd, the silver haired Queen is going to tell them to stop and they might obey because of dragons. Which ties to Mirri.

 

 

44 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

So she hasn’t saved anybody. Has gotten a lot more people killed. Has the blood of two innocents on her hands. 

Drogo was innocent?? Didn't know that.

 

 

45 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

It’s ridiculous to give Miri credit for Danys future actions or the birth of the dragons. Especially when this was not her intent. Dany came to that conclusion herself and any blood would have sufficed. She was already having Dragon dreams and those eggs were going to hatch anyway. All Miri did was provide a convenient source of fuel.

I mean, you directly blame her for possible catastrophic courses of time... Which is simply wishful thinking.

We can however draw a straight line between Drogo's, Rhaego¡s and Mirri's death and the dragons.

[Tyrion1991]

3 minutes ago, frenin said:

They possess the level of agency their husbands decide to give them and Dany started to have more and more as time passed on.

 

And with those who instigate them.

 

 

Which is indeed enough. The Lhazareen may or may not have been targetted anyway, but when they were indeed targetted was to fund Dany's war.

 

 

None of them instigated any kind of violent retaliation/war. Dany did. 

 

 

Sure, all of them are guilty to a significant higher degree than Dany, that does not mean that she is not.

But it makes little sense trying to blame Varys, Illyrion or JonCon while trying to exonerate Dany when all four were playing the exact same game. Egging Drogo into invading Westeros.

 

 

Is not sufficient justification to whom?? 

 

 

She closed her eyes to the fact that a village would be targetted to fund her war, she closes her eyes until she can't do it anymore.

 

 

She is a 13 year old, she isn't stupid however, she very much knows how the Dothraki get the money and Jorah does not have to explain her anything that she doesn't know. In fact, the only thing Jorah tells Dany that she does not know is where are they going to get the best price for their newly acquired products.  She very much understands the rest and it's never made vague anyway.

 

 

 

That's not true, the targets are, if they were ever really targetted in the first place, Drogo and Rhaego,  Dany is simply caught up in the middle, but Mirri simply states that her help was meaningless to her, as she had already lost everything.

 

 

What??

 

You did not argued that nor did i. Dany does expect gratitude from Mirri and Mirri is saying that she's not grateful for nothing. She's not trying to make herself the victim, she's a victim. 

 

 

I can't follow your reasoning.  

 

1.  Dany's later decisions are not/don't have to be the same if she actually had lived ¿happily ever after? with Drogo.
2. Dany was quite neutral regarding slavery, she had grown up with them in her life anyway, until she sees the horror of Yunkai.

 

The hindsight Dany you're using as argument simply can't exist without Mirri. 

 

A lot of characters have successfully read the future, the most prominent is Daenys Targ. How we have zero reasons to assume her knowledge when she's the one teaching Dany??

 

 

No, I don't seem to believe that, i'm just stating that your reasoning cuts both ways.

You're using hindsight to make a point, that's absurd, the silver haired Queen is going to tell them to stop and they might obey because of dragons. Which ties to Mirri.

 

 

Drogo was innocent?? Didn't know that.

 

 

I mean, you directly blame her for possible catastrophic courses of time... Which is simply wishful thinking.

We can however draw a straight line between Drogo's, Rhaego¡s and Mirri's death and the dragons.

 

I never said Drogo was innocent. When his Lhallassar breaks up there’s effectively a civil war. Some of Danys handmaidens and slaves are raped and murdered. The divided Khalassars go on a rampage through the Dothraki Sea. That’s a huge amount of suffering, much of it which will be bourne by slaves and even her own people. They’re in Lhazar, whose lands do you think they’re rampaging through and going to fight over exactly? 

If you’re going to say that she’s done a good thing here then you have to take this into consideration. 

 

[CamiloRP]

7 minutes ago, SeanF said:

To a degree, any highborn woman in this story profits from the injustices that the men of her family carry out.  But, such women have much less agency than their husbands/fathers/brothers. They usually have no choice who they marry, and neither divorce, nor separation, nor earning an independent living are options.   None of them are in the position of Carmela Soprano, who had other options, but chose to profit from Tony's crimes.

Yes, I'm not saying she's a monster, but she's not entirely innocent either, to MMD she's just a kalheesi, why shouldn't shewant to kill her?

[frenin]

Just now, Tyrion1991 said:

I never said Drogo was innocent. When his Lhallassar breaks up there’s effectively a civil war. Some of Danys handmaidens and slaves are raped and murdered. The divided Khalassars go on a rampage through the Dothraki Sea. That’s a huge amount of suffering, much of it which will be bourne by slaves and even her own people. They’re in Lhazar, whose lands do you think they’re rampaging through and going to fight over exactly? 

If you’re going to say that she’s done a good thing here then you have to take this into consideration. 

That people suffered?? Let's put an extreme comparison, Dany's war on slavers bay, should she give up on her quest to end slavery because there is a lot of people dying?? It's a silly exampple, just to point that just because people die does't mean that overall the outcome is bad.

What would have happened if Drogo had not died?? Well, a wholo lot of people's life would have been destroyed.

You said that Mirri had two innocent lives on her hands...

 

[SeanF]

28 minutes ago, frenin said:

They possess the level of agency their husbands decide to give them and Dany started to have more and more as time passed on.

 

And with those who instigate them.

 

 

Which is indeed enough. The Lhazareen may or may not have been targetted anyway, but when they were indeed targetted was to fund Dany's war.

 

 

None of them instigated any kind of violent retaliation/war. Dany did. 

 

 

 

1. Daenerys did not possess a military command role.  That ought to be obvious from the text. 

2. Enough for what?  You'd be laughed out of court if you tried to prosecute Daenerys for war crimes on the evidence that we have in the text.

War was instigated by those who negotiated the trade of Daenerys, in return for a Khalasar, and Drogo himself.  Daenerys was not a part of those negotiations, so far as I am aware.  In fact, the evidence is that she was very unhappy about being made to marry Drogo.

3. It's not Dany's war.  Dany transmitted a claim to the Iron Throne to her and Drogo's unborn son.  Decisions about war and peace rested solely with Khal Drogo.

4. The instigators of war are the adult males who are in charge of the negotiations for war, and the adult males who either fight or command those who fight, not the child bride who must do as she is told.  Daenerys does of course, favour war.  But, that does not make her responsible for  acts committed by others.

I myself might favour a particular war.  That does not make me responsible for each and every act carried out in the course of  such a war.