Why Mirri Maz Duur was in the wrong

[Azarial]

11 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Mirri would be wise enough to know that the Dothraki mistrust maegi. It was a great risk revealing herself to be one... and for what? To help the people who destroyed her temple and raped and killed her people?

They already knew, so healing him would have benefited her, as she would know they mistrust those like her. But proving herself as a simple healer is a benefit in terms of her worth later, once they sell her. She wouldn't want to be killed as a maegi, or sold as a slave with no valuable skills.

11 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

You need to figure out whether you want Mirri to be wise and cunning or a wide eyed dumb-dumb who can't see the situation for what it is. If she's as observant as you portray here, then she'd also be smart enough to see that Dany was claiming all the rape victims. She'd be able work out from the exchange between Dany, Qotho, and Drogo that Dany was trying to stop the rapes, and that her power was limited. The difference in between how the Dothraki treat her and how Dany treat her would be clear.

Not at that point. She claimed them. As in made them her personal slaves, nothing more. They are still slaves, and she was riding through claiming them and met with Drogo. She has no idea what Dany intended to do with them. You are applying Dany's thoughts to what Mirri should know. This is a false inference. She knows Dany stopped the rapes to claim them as hers, nothing more.

11 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

There's nothing in the text to suggest the problem was a misunderstanding or a difference in pov. Mirri herself acknowledges Dany's good intentions and treatment ("you do not ask a slave" / “So you have saved me once more.”). But to her it doesn't matter because it was too little too late.

Exactly! She doesn't think Dany saved her, this is my point. She isn't emphasizing good intentions she is making it clear that she is still a slave, Dany's slave, thus she isn't saved. The second quote comes later, and doesn't matter in terms of her initial impression of what was going on. My whole point is her initial thoughts and how she feels later change.

11 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

“Saved me?” The Lhazareen woman spat. “Three riders had taken me, not as a man takes a woman but from behind, as a dog takes a bitch. The fourth was in me when you rode past. How then did you save me? I saw my god’s house burn, where I had healed good men beyond counting. My home they burned as well, and in the street I saw piles of heads. I saw the head of a baker who made my bread. I saw the head of a boy I had saved from deadeye fever, only three moons past. I heard children crying as the riders drove them off with their whips. Tell me again what you saved.”
“Your life.”
Mirri Maz Duur laughed cruelly. “Look to your khal and see what life is worth, when all the rest is gone.”

 

Some plants have antiseptic qualities, sure, but we usually either ingest them or use them topically. Stuffing herbs inside a wound and sewing it in doesn't sound like a good idea to me. Nor does covering wounds with wet leaves. As I mentioned, Dothraki healing methods seemed to work just fine, seeing as Cohollo healed without issues.

I wouldn't have found this suspicious, alone. But given the context...

Maintaining moisture was believed to be important for healing, and not placing it in the wound wouldn't help if the source of the infection was fully in the wound from a dirty weapon. This type of treatment is based on a wet to dry dressing, it exists historically. I didn't even have to try hard to find it. And we don't know enough about all the different healing methods to know for sure if she was healing or not, so both options should be considered. We should not just assume she was trying to harm. Cohollo could have been cut with a clean blade. He could have followed the instructions and not mixed ingredients that could be toxic like Drogo did. There are other options.

11 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

The baby kicking furiously sounded like something was wrong to me, since most babies will calm down right before labor. It's not unheard of, ofc, but it's a less common phenomena that's been highlighted, so I assume we're meant to pay attention it. Again, that alone wouldn't be noteworthy, but it does reinforce the idea that Rhaego was always intended to be a sacrifice, as implied here:

The contractions are significant and Dany may have interpreted that as kicking, if the placenta detaches the baby would kick, stress from the mother can trigger kicking, and there is no doubt she was stressed. There are lots of normal explanations for this. 

11 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

“You warned me that only death could pay for life. I thought you meant the horse.”
“No,” Mirri Maz Duur said. “That was a lie you told yourself. You knew the price.”

Why does my having a different interpretation offend you?

If you think Mirri purposefully killing Drogo and Rhaego makes her a cliche evil villain, that's your problem. I made no such judgement.

We are in Dany's head, we know this was never even hinted at. This could easily be interpreted as her lashing out after the fact.

It doesn't offend me, the fact that you stated things as though there is only one possible way to interpret it is what gave the impression that you were offended. I said from the start I believe not all options were being discussed. big difference. You being dismissive in your tone is what bothered me, not your opinion. You seemed to believe that Mirri not being a monster made the right or wrongness of Dany's actions change. I don't feel this way. I think Dany believed what she believed and acted based on that and that her being right or wrong doesn't reflect on Dany in any way, because she is a 13 year old terrified girl who isn't in Mirri's head. And I think judging Mirri based on wanting Dany to be in the right makes people jump through hoops to ensure that Mirri is evil instead of being objective. Just like I think people who dislike Dany jump through hoops to make Mirri a victim. I don't love or hate Dany, I simply want all options discussed fairly, not to dismissed as BS because it doesn't make Dany out to be unquestionably right or wrong. I don't care what you believe in the end, as long as all options are discussed fairly without bias. Like flippantly disregarding that attempting to heal is an option because you view what she did as comparable to stuffing a chicken. I don't know if wet to dry bandages used leaves, it's not clear, but this is fantasy so there is nothing to say GRRM wouldn't make this viable in his world based on antiseptic pastes made from leaves, and wet dry bandages both existing in the real world historically.

If you'd said I can see that this may be possible, but still believe she did it on purpose I'd have felt that a fair response. Not acknowledging that Mirri gave warnings of things that must not be done, and those were broken every time makes it unclear if she did anything wrong is what bothers me. I think it could go either way, and see no benefit to not discussing all options. 

As for cliche villain, if she tried and failed to murder Drogo, then turned him into a vegetable by killing an unborn baby to get back at Dany for claiming her as a slave, and get back at Drogo for sacking her home that is pretty cliche. Sorry, but evil sorceress uses magic to enact revenge and it backfires is the plot of many Disney movies. I find her trying to heal for real, observing Dany deciding she's misguided not evil and gives her sharp lessons, and lashes out in the end out of desperation more interesting. If you like the evil sorceress seeks revenge and fails plot, so be it. We'll likely never know the truth anyway so we can each believe whatever we want.

[Hodor the Articulate]

8 hours ago, Azarial said:

They already knew, so healing him would have benefited her, as she would know they mistrust those like her. But proving herself as a simple healer is a benefit in terms of her worth later, once they sell her. She wouldn't want to be killed as a maegi, or sold as a slave with no valuable skills.

Nobody knew what she was until she told them. And when did, they wanted to kill her.

“I am named Mirri Maz Duur. I am godswife of this temple.”
“Maegi,” grunted Haggo, fingering his arakh. His look was dark. Dany remembered the word from a terrifying story that Jhiqui had told her one night by the cookfire. A maegi was a woman who lay with demons and practiced the blackest of sorceries, a vile thing, evil and soulless, who came to men in the dark of night and sucked life and strength from their bodies.
“I am a healer,” Mirri Maz Duur said.
“A healer of sheeps,” sneered Qotho. “Blood of my blood, I say kill this maegi and wait for the hairless men.”

The only reason she would think outing herself would help in any way, is if she knew that Dany was not like the other Dothraki and would not hurt her.

Also, she knew she was not going to sold, as Dany had claimed them for herself.

8 hours ago, Azarial said:

Not at that point. She claimed them. As in made them her personal slaves, nothing more. They are still slaves, and she was riding through claiming them and met with Drogo. She has no idea what Dany intended to do with them. You are applying Dany's thoughts to what Mirri should know. This is a false inference. She knows Dany stopped the rapes to claim them as hers, nothing more.

Exactly! She doesn't think Dany saved her, this is my point. She isn't emphasizing good intentions she is making it clear that she is still a slave, Dany's slave, thus she isn't saved. The second quote comes later, and doesn't matter in terms of her initial impression of what was going on. My whole point is her initial thoughts and how she feels later change.

"Each time Dany reined up, sent her khas to make an end to it, and claimed the victim as slave. One of them, a thick-bodied, flat-nosed woman of forty years, blessed Dany haltingly in the Common Tongue"

Even if she were being disingenuous here - which she probably is - this is still yet another instance of recognition that Dany saving them from further rape and brutalising. Mirri rejects the claim that she was "saved", not because she didn't understand Dany's intentions, but because it was too little, too late (“Look to your khal and see what life is worth, when all the rest is gone”). In Mirri's "tell me again what you saved" speech, she lists all the atrocities the Dothraki had inflicted on her people. Nowhere does she say anything about being taken in as Dany's slave.

8 hours ago, Azarial said:

Maintaining moisture was believed to be important for healing, and not placing it in the wound wouldn't help if the source of the infection was fully in the wound from a dirty weapon. This type of treatment is based on a wet to dry dressing, it exists historically. I didn't even have to try hard to find it. And we don't know enough about all the different healing methods to know for sure if she was healing or not, so both options should be considered. We should not just assume she was trying to harm. Cohollo could have been cut with a clean blade. He could have followed the instructions and not mixed ingredients that could be toxic like Drogo did. There are other options.

Wet-to-dry treatment is considered a problematic and archaic method of treating wounds. What you probably mean is wet/moist treatment, but that involves keeping the wound in an sterile environment. A wet leaf isn't doing anything except probably cultivating bacteria. I also find the idea that Drogo drinking wine and opioids somehow bringing on a fever unconvincing. That's not mixing ingredients; he wasn't given medicine.

Cohollo could have been doing a number of things, but if we're not shown them, they're not canon. What is known is he had a huge gash on his shoulder and was successfully treated by the hairless men. They are described as healing with "knife and needle and fire", which sounds pretty reasonable and pretty much what maesters in Westeros do.

Again, I wouldn't assume anything if MMD straight up tell us her motivations and all but admit to being responsible.

8 hours ago, Azarial said:

The contractions are significant and Dany may have interpreted that as kicking, if the placenta detaches the baby would kick, stress from the mother can trigger kicking, and there is no doubt she was stressed. There are lots of normal explanations for this. 

I repeat, most babies will calm down right before labor. It's not unheard of, ofc, but it's a less common phenomena that's been highlighted, so I assume we're meant to pay attention it. Again, that alone wouldn't be noteworthy, but it does reinforce the idea that Rhaego was always intended to be a sacrifice.

8 hours ago, Azarial said:

We are in Dany's head, we know this was never even hinted at. This could easily be interpreted as her lashing out after the fact.

It was very much hinted at.

“It is not a matter of gold or horses. This is bloodmagic, lady. Only death may pay for life.”
“Death?” Dany wrapped her arms around herself protectively, rocked back and forth on her heels. “My death?” She told herself she would die for him, if she must. She was the blood of the dragon, she would not be afraid. Her brother Rhaegar had died for the woman he loved.
“No,” Mirri Maz Duur promised. “Not your death, Khaleesi.”

Dany instinctively knew a human death would be the price, but rationalised it away.

8 hours ago, Azarial said:

It doesn't offend me, the fact that you stated things as though there is only one possible way to interpret it is

But that's exactly what you're doing! Sure, you present yourself as a exploring possibilities, but then you conclude no, option a is right. You wouldn't be here arguing with me if you as open to different interpretations as you claim. You have your own interpretations that you want to think is more accurate than everyone else's, just like everyone in this thread.

8 hours ago, Azarial said:

You seemed to believe that Mirri not being a monster made the right or wrongness of Dany's actions change.

No, that's your judgment that you're projecting onto me. I've not once spoken about the morality of Dany's actions as they're irrelevant.

I was the one said MMD's actions were understandable. I would go as far as to call her vengeance upon Drogo sympathetic. You may not find that interesting enough, but that's not a good argument for what the author was trying to portray. I found Kraznys uninteresting but that doesn't mean he wasn't the almost cartoonishly greedy and vile man that was presented in Dany's POV.

[Springwatch]

The herbwomen used leaves, and a wet, soothing poultice, much wetter than Mirri's.

Just because of the contrast, I think Mirri's pale green ointment might have been mineral based - and she only used a smear.

[Hodor the Articulate]

38 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

The herbwomen used leaves, and a wet, soothing poultice, much wetter than Mirri's.

Just because of the contrast, I think Mirri's pale green ointment might have been mineral based - and she only used a smear.

That's why I said the herbwomen's poultice was rubbish too. Although, clay does have antibacterial properties (if that is what "blue mud" was)... it might have been okay had they used just that without the fig leaves.

[Azarial]

On 9/29/2020 at 7:01 PM, Hodor the Articulate said:

Nobody knew what she was until she told them. And when did, they wanted to kill her.

“I am named Mirri Maz Duur. I am godswife of this temple.”
“Maegi,” grunted Haggo, fingering his arakh. His look was dark. Dany remembered the word from a terrifying story that Jhiqui had told her one night by the cookfire. A maegi was a woman who lay with demons and practiced the blackest of sorceries, a vile thing, evil and soulless, who came to men in the dark of night and sucked life and strength from their bodies.
“I am a healer,” Mirri Maz Duur said.
“A healer of sheeps,” sneered Qotho. “Blood of my blood, I say kill this maegi and wait for the hairless men.”

The only reason she would think outing herself would help in any way, is if she knew that Dany was not like the other Dothraki and would not hurt her.

I thought she was captured in the temple and that the men knew my mistake can't remember every little detail, the books are to big for perfect recall, but regardless, she didn't call herself a Maegi here, she said godswife and healer. Healers have value, and if she wasn't taken by the Dothraki before, why would she assume they would view Godswife, healer as a Maegi? Later she says she's both, but that's hindsight and can't be applied here since she didn't identify herself that way. But, I don't see anything here that would make her assume they would call her a Maegi, or want to kill her as a result of her being a temple healer until after she said she's a Godswife. If someone has never been enslaved and only lived in places where being a Godswife is accepted why would they assume that they would react this way? If you know that healers have more value and are generally treated better as slaves why wouldn't you make your value clear to improve your treatment, if not now later if/when your're sold? She didn't out herself as a maegi, she outed herself as a healer that worked in a temple. Why would she assume they would interpret that as maegi given what Dany herself thinks the word means? Or take it one step farther, when she states that the word means wise woman why would she assume this would be a negative, given that the Dothraki have the equialent of wise woman at their core. Their is no reason to assume this without her knowing their culture intimately, and we have no reason to think she does. Knows of them sure. Knows they steal gods, sell slaves, raid and pillage sure. But why assume they would not accept her as a healer based on outsider knowledge? They use the bald men that aren't of their culture as healers. There is a leap in logic here that I'm not following.

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Also, she knew she was not going to sold, as Dany had claimed them for herself.

"Each time Dany reined up, sent her khas to make an end to it, and claimed the victim as slave. One of them, a thick-bodied, flat-nosed woman of forty years, blessed Dany haltingly in the Common Tongue"

Even if she were being disingenuous here - which she probably is - this is still yet another instance of recognition that Dany saving them from further rape and brutalising. Mirri rejects the claim that she was "saved", not because she didn't understand Dany's intentions, but because it was too little, too late (“Look to your khal and see what life is worth, when all the rest is gone”). In Mirri's "tell me again what you saved" speech, she lists all the atrocities the Dothraki had inflicted on her people. Nowhere does she say anything about being taken in as Dany's slave.

Salves are sold. Dany claiming her as hers only means when/if she's sold it would be by Dany. All the people taken there are either enslaved or killed. No where in the text you post does it say her slaves won't be sold. Just that her slaves won't be raped and killed from that point on. I agree Mirri didn't feel saved, I agree that her thoughts on stopping the rapes and violence were to little to late I've said as much, repeatedly. But that doesn't imply that she must be seeking vengeance. She could be, or she could be trying to improve/make the best of her situation up until that becomes impossible because her attempts were bungled by others not following her instructions. Something being possible isn't proof.

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Wet-to-dry treatment is considered a problematic and archaic method of treating wounds. What you probably mean is wet/moist treatment, but that involves keeping the wound in an sterile environment. A wet leaf isn't doing anything except probably cultivating bacteria. I also find the idea that Drogo drinking wine and opioids somehow bringing on a fever unconvincing. That's not mixing ingredients; he wasn't given medicine.

Yeah, problematic and archaic, so a treatment someone in the medieval times may think is a viable treatment. This whole world is based on archaic times and methods. And if a wet leaf has antibacterial properties it may be viewed in world as a viable treatment.  But, him being told not to do those things was included for a reason. Alcohol dehydrates, opioids can impact bodily functions, these things could impact the treatment. There is stuff in the text saying they will. We have no proof that this isn't true. The treatment could be a bad one, but that still wouldn't prove that there was malicious intent because we can't use modern knowledge of what is and isn't a good idea to prove malicious intent. In archaic times people believed this worked. That is all we need to know to for it to possible that Mirri could have been acting to genuinely heal, not harm.

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Cohollo could have been doing a number of things, but if we're not shown them, they're not canon. What is known is he had a huge gash on his shoulder and was successfully treated by the hairless men. They are described as healing with "knife and needle and fire", which sounds pretty reasonable and pretty much what maesters in Westeros do.

Again, I wouldn't assume anything if MMD straight up tell us her motivations and all but admit to being responsible.

She didn't for this wound though. That was much later, when she was desperate and could have been either lashing out or trying to make a point after her instructions were not followed, twice. If you were doing something to heal someone and said no matter what don't do _______ and they did ________ resulting in your attempts not only not working, but something they did made it worse, twice, are you seriously saying you, knowing full well you're as good as dead, wouldn't lash out or try to say something that will make the person think about what they've done and are planning to keep doing in order to maybe save others from your fate? What do you think an innocent woman would do here? Beg? Cry? Run? What options are there that would let her keep some dignity? Think of what Mirri says, she could be using this last moment as a way to make Dany think about the harm caused by the Dothraki way. She could be trying to lash out. She could be lying out of spite for how things turned out.

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I repeat, most babies will calm down right before labor. It's not unheard of, ofc, but it's a less common phenomena that's been highlighted, so I assume we're meant to pay attention it. Again, that alone wouldn't be noteworthy, but it does reinforce the idea that Rhaego was always intended to be a sacrifice.

We'll have to agree to disagree as I think this quote below shows the placenta detaching. 

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Dany felt a sharp pain in her belly, a wetness on her thighs.

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It was very much hinted at.

“It is not a matter of gold or horses. This is bloodmagic, lady. Only death may pay for life.”
“Death?” Dany wrapped her arms around herself protectively, rocked back and forth on her heels. “My death?” She told herself she would die for him, if she must. She was the blood of the dragon, she would not be afraid. Her brother Rhaegar had died for the woman he loved.
“No,” Mirri Maz Duur promised. “Not your death, Khaleesi.”

Dany instinctively knew a human death would be the price, but rationalised it away.

She worried that her life was needed, but then it was implied it was the horse. It could be more, but it was never made clear. So a hint isn't something Dany knew. And if she wasn't taken into the tent and if the men fighting and the horse was enough (if that was even related and not just because of their own superstitions beliefs causing them to act that way) the baby may have lived. We have no proof either way.

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But that's exactly what you're doing! Sure, you present yourself as a exploring possibilities, but then you conclude no, option a is right. You wouldn't be here arguing with me if you as open to different interpretations as you claim. You have your own interpretations that you want to think is more accurate than everyone else's, just like everyone in this thread.

Saying there is no proof of her intent isn't the same as saying she must be malicious or must be a victim. And I'm arguing strongly because you didn't even fully read my first post, made assumptions that were clearly not true and argued against me using points I made. It pissed me off. I'm human, if I feel disrespected I will fight back. And I don't think the stance of there is no proof and a middle ground is possible is unreasonable. And I don't think pointing out that things aren't as clear as people think is fighting for a side, because arguing that there is more than one possibility based on the text we're given isn't an interpretation. It's pointing out a that there are other options. But I can't prove that there is more than one option without proving that there isn't just one universal option, and that means debating points that other opinions put forward as facts in support of their belief.

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No, that's your judgment that you're projecting onto me. I've not once spoken about the morality of Dany's actions as they're irrelevant.

Fair enough, my belief in this is linked to what I said above. Normally if someone acts that way it's because they are emotionally invested in a character and that bias impacts their view of the text.

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I was the one said MMD's actions were understandable. I would go as far as to call her vengeance upon Drogo sympathetic. You may not find that interesting enough, but that's not a good argument for what the author was trying to portray. I found Kraznys uninteresting but that doesn't mean he wasn't the almost cartoonishly greedy and vile man that was presented in Dany's POV.

I don't remember who said what prior to me posting as I just read the thread up that point quickly because I wasn't around at the start of the thread. I just reacted to how you responded to my initial post. As for the rest I meant this in terms of how this impacts Dany and her arc. Two non POV characters, that are now both dead, interactions aren't what drives future plot points. How Dany views it, and her role in it is. There are lost of characters that seem cartoonish if you don't look at things from their perspective. GRRM shows us this first hand with Jamie for example. The evil guy who killed his king, has sex with his sister, and pushed a kid out of a window.

It's never that simple.

If there is a seemingly cartoonish character/motive I find it likely that there is something deeper going on that the POV character missed, because GRRM made it clear with how he added new POV characters that this is a technique he uses. This may or may not be one of those cases, but I haven't read anything here to make me believe that this is as clear cut as people believe. Just the fact that there are two diametrically apposing interpretations implies that there is more going on.

Dany herself reflects on if she knew or not, and worries about it, this makes it clear that Dany isn't sure what is true. Highlighting the lack of clarity is more of a clue to me than Mirri stating something after the fact, because people lie and her stating that Dany knew something when Dany didn't, she just worried that her life would be sacrificed, and her holding her stomach is natural, as her death would imply the baby needed to be cut out and survive without her, hints that Mirri isn't being honest here. Dany's thoughts are private, so they are genuine. We know she didn't think the baby was the price. That means Mirri was lying in that conversation and is simply playing off of Dany's cloudy thinking and fears, so why shouldn't we question all that she said in that conversation?