Jump to content
Killjoybear

US Politics: Ruthless ambition

Recommended Posts

54 minutes ago, Chataya de Fleury said:

100% agreed, and my focus on getting undecideds whom I know to vote blue for president and US Senate. New polling in GA shows that these races are too close to call.

Yup.  Georgia, Texas and Florida are three big states that we will definitely know who won on election night (unless they're within 20k votes or less).  Biden wins even one of those and he's probably got it. 

I don't know why but somehow the idea of Trump winning Florida only to lose Georgia is very appealing to me.  Florida has just screwed Democrats so many times. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Ormond said:

Which is precisely why people like Chataya should give them some clues.

They’ve been getting clues their whole lives and still can’t form a thoughtful opinion. There’s a reason why the plurality of the eligible vote in this country is not to participate, and it’s in large part because we have a dumb citizenry.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since I know how much the topic of Bloomberg is lived here, I just heard on CNBC that he has raised $16 M  to pay off fines of Florida felons. That amount will allow 30,000 to vote.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

Good for him. He's the Soviet Union in the fight against Nazi Germany, a necessarily evil to beat back the jackbooted goosesteppers.

I think he might be America.  We're the Soviet Union getting bloody. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

They’ve been getting clues their whole lives and still can’t form a thoughtful opinion. There’s a reason why the plurality of the eligible vote in this country is not to participate, and it’s in large part because we have a dumb citizenry.  

My mom started voting Dem in her 50s.  My grandma started in her 80s.  I know plenty of college educated people who don't vote.  It's not about being dumb, it's about being skeptical of the value of voting, voting on one or two issues, or the idea that special interests and the MIC actually run things.  

Who can blame them when one or two states decide the election, Wyoming gets the same senatorial representation as NY, and corporations are people?  Telling people they are dumb and misinformed is a shitty and way to get them to do what you want, and condescending as hell.

If they are so dumb it should be easy to get them to do what you want.

If you have as large of a nonvoting population as we do you'd think that some candidate out there could figure out a way to get them to vote.  Maybe actually talk about what you're going to do to make their lives better instead of berating them about their lack of participation in a super-flawed system with lame platitudes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, great - more prophets of doom - just what we need at this time. Seriously, all these doomsday scenarios about USA turning into Orban's Hungary or worse, Hitler's Germany are laughable to anyone who knows anything about the latter two.

Hungary, for example, is not a two-party system like the US - yet Orban's party alone holds two thirds of the parliament. It's a also country with virtually no left-wing opposition - most popular lefty party got miserable 12% of votes in the last elections (seriously, Orban's most popular opposition is another far-right party). It's a country with pretty young and not fully developed democratic institutions - not unexpected given how it's been de facto independent for only last 30 years or so. It's a country where president managed to establish effective mechanism to control the courts (no, not just Supreme Court, but all the judges and courts). It's a country which suffered for almost half a century under what is basically communist dictatorship, causing pendulum to violently swing back in opposite direction (i.e. Orban's far right). Take all of this into account, and more - and ask yourself if any of this is applicable to US today. Fortunately, the answer is no - and the comparisons to Nazi Germany are even less applicable.

So, what will happen if Trump wins another 4 years? Not much. Nobody here will emigrate in panic. Gates to Hell will not open.  Four Riders of Apocalpyse will stay put. True, America will suffer four more years of deranged and ridiculously incompetent president, but it will hardly be the first country to do so. There will still be strong opposition in form of media, citizens' organizations and House of Representatives, occasionally managing to block some of his most dangerous ideas. And after 4 years, his mandate will be over, whether he likes it or not. In few more decades he won't be remembered at all, except as one of biggest blunders in a history of democratic world. Ffs, America has survived two world wars, several horrific economic depressions, Cold war and nuclear crisis - have some faith it will survive one charlatanic demagague.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

Oh, great - more prophets of doom - just what we need at this time. Seriously, all these doomsday scenarios about USA turning into Orban's Hungary or worse, Hitler's Germany are laughable to anyone who knows anything about the latter two.

Hungary, for example, is not a two-party system like the US - yet Orban's party alone holds two thirds of the parliament. It's a also country with virtually no left-wing opposition - most popular lefty party got miserable 12% of votes in the last elections (seriously, Orban's most popular opposition is another far-right party). It's a country with pretty young and not fully developed democratic institutions - not unexpected given how it's been de facto independent for only last 30 years or so. It's a country where president managed to establish effective mechanism to control the courts (no, not just Supreme Court, but all the judges and courts). It's a country which suffered for almost half a century under what is basically communist dictatorship, causing pendulum to violently swing back in opposite direction (i.e. Orban's far right). Take all of this into account, and more - and ask yourself if any of this is applicable to US today. Fortunately, the answer is no - and the comparisons to Nazi Germany are even less applicable.

So, what will happen if Trump wins another 4 years? Not much. Nobody here will emigrate in panic. Gates to Hell will not open.  Four Riders of Apocalpyse will stay put. True, America will suffer four more years of deranged and ridiculously incompetent president, but it will hardly be the first country to do so. There will still be strong opposition in form of media, citizens' organizations and House of Representatives, occasionally managing to block some of his most dangerous ideas. And after 4 years, his mandate will be over, whether he likes it or not. In few more decades he won't be remembered at all, except as one of biggest blunders in a history of democratic world. Ffs, America has survived two world wars, several horrific economic depressions, Cold war and nuclear crisis - have some faith it will survive one charlatanic demagague.

Re: bolded

1.  Trumps appointments to federal courts are arguably more dangerous than what he's done to the supreme court 

2.  Where have you been the last 4 years?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

I've made analogies to Nazi Germany before; not here on the board but in regular society, and most people just laugh or shrug it off. But the similarities are absolutely there with mid-1930s Germany, not just in the tendencies of the Administration itself but also with the way the populace is reacting to steady erosion of liberties. The 40% of people who have cult like devotion to the leader is also reminiscent of that period, especially in the way they appear to have neutered the remaining 60%.

I do think there are some critical differences as well, but things could get much worse here for sure (will just take a different form).

I think its more like like 20% in the cult, 30% against the cult, 50% too ignorant or exhausted to care.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

My mom started voting Dem in her 50s.  My grandma started in her 80s.  I know plenty of college educated people who don't vote.  It's not about being dumb, it's about being skeptical of the value of voting, voting on one or two issues, or the idea that special interests and the MIC actually run things.  

Who can blame them when one or two states decide the election, Wyoming gets the same senatorial representation as NY, and corporations are people?  Telling people they are dumb and misinformed is a shitty and way to get them to do what you want, and condescending as hell.

If they are so dumb it should be easy to get them to do what you want.

If you have as large of a nonvoting population as we do you'd think that some candidate out there could figure out a way to get them to vote.  Maybe actually talk about what you're going to do to make their lives better instead of berating them about their lack of participation in a super-flawed system with lame platitudes.

You’re conflating two different things here. You can both believe, accurately, that the average American isn’t very informed, and craft a strategy without throwing it in their face.

Hell, why do you think all these elected Ivy League lawyers talk like junior high students?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

Re: bolded

1.  Trumps appointments to federal courts are arguably more dangerous than what he's done to the supreme court 

2.  Where have you been the last 4 years?

And where have you been for the last 4 years? 

Honestly, I cannot see how anyone can disagree with the second statement you bolded, because it includes the word "occasionally". If it wasn't possible to occasionally block some of Trump's ideas, Obamacare would have been repealed back in 2017. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Ormond said:

And where have you been for the last 4 years? 

Honestly, I cannot see how anyone can disagree with the second statement you bolded, because it includes the word "occasionally". If it wasn't possible to occasionally block some of Trump's ideas, Obamacare would have been repealed back in 2017. 

Not that I'm disagreeing with your argument, but I think @larrytheimp's incredulity is at least partially based in what we are currently experiencing, which is that if your goal is only to break things and not actually govern, having control of the HoR is a pretty small consolation prize. Yes, it keeps the worst excesses at bay, but it's still all going downhill.

Now, I don't think that a dystopia is baked-in yet, but a Trump victory even with a Democratic House will be bad for almost everyone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course a second Trump term wont look like Nazi Germany, but in just the past few months we've seen talk of patriotic indoctrination in schools, actual declaration of parts of the US as lawless zones, alleged forced hysterectomies, jackbooted thugs spiriting off protestors and many other examples. All this is before an election; think of how much further he'll go with no political consequences. No, its going to get much worse. In light of all that, a few demonstrations and news articles are essentially toothless (having the House less so, but there is only so much it can do)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

You’re conflating two different things here. You can both believe, accurately, that the average American isn’t very informed, and craft a strategy without throwing it in their face.

Hell, why do you think all these elected Ivy League lawyers talk like junior high students?

Yup, my strategy is to go for what appeals to the uninformed voter.

For one of my female friends, it’s going to be about a fair workplace environment...and also pandemic mishandling.

For another, it’s going to be about the economy. His business is suffering because of the mishandling of the pandemic. And the government hasn’t stepped in with CARES Round 2 because Trump is too focused on catering to the evangelicals for his Supreme Court nomination.

That’s how I lay it out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

Romney and Gardner will vote on a nominee, so whichever huckster (I beg your pardon, originalist/textualist) Trump wants to put up will probably go through. Its time to expand the court in 2021.

Fucking Romney... "Earlier this year I voted to remove this President from office, but now I'm going to approve his pick for a lifetime appointment to the Supreme Court."

Makes perfect sense. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

His statement is really trying to dress up "I'm going to do this because it's in my interest, no more no less". Not quite as honourable as he's making out

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, Ormond said:

And where have you been for the last 4 years? 

Honestly, I cannot see how anyone can disagree with the second statement you bolded, because it includes the word "occasionally". If it wasn't possible to occasionally block some of Trump's ideas, Obamacare would have been repealed back in 2017. 

"Occasionally" doing a lot of heavy lifting in this situation.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...