Jump to content
Lord of Raventree Hall

Why Do People Hate Daeron?

Recommended Posts

I have been thinking about this for awhile. I get that Daeron is not a pinnacle of virtue. He abandons Sam and Maester Aemon (although I think the Maester was dying either way). However, people on this forum often love Mance Raydar, another black brother who abandoned his post. I am sure Mance is personally responsible for a slew of other Ranger’s deaths. Why is Daeron for wanting freedom where Mance is loved for the same thing. Daeron claims from our earliest introduction to him that he didn’t commit the crime that landed him on the Wall, and...considering the circumstances, seems fairly possible he is telling the truth. So he has been sentenced to a life of servitude for a crime he didn’t commit. Yet, everyone just hates him on this forum. Why? I honestly just don’t get it. So I want to hear your explanations and would also like to hear from those that don’t hate him. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Abandoning Maester Aemon while dying makes him worse, not more excusable.

Mance devoted himself to saving people and working against the Others which is actually the main purpose the NW. It can be argued that Mance is one of the few NW actually keeping his oath, or at least the oldest and most important part of it. Daeron was whoring.

Given singers in this series are rather questionable and highly associated with liars though some are better than others (Mance is also a singer and a trickster figure) and we see Daeron go to whoring at the first chance, this clues us in that Daeron probably did what he was accused of and apparently learned nothing from it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Why is Daeron for wanting freedom where Mance is loved for the same thing.

He wanted to whore around while the world is going to end. Armageddon. Apocalypse. Others. Invasion. A time when he was needed the most. 

Mance left for a more philosophical reason. And he's fighting against the Others. 

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Daeron claims from our earliest introduction to him that he didn’t commit the crime that landed him on the Wall, and...considering the circumstances, seems fairly possible he is telling the truth. So he has been sentenced to a life of servitude for a crime he didn’t commit.

Your opinion, not mine. Just because he denies it a million times doesn't make him innocent. And what circumstances did you consider to judge him innocent? 

 

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Yet, everyone just hates him on this forum. Why? I honestly just don’t get it

If you still continue like this, you won't. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Abandoning Maester Aemon while dying makes him worse, not more excusable.

Mance devoted himself to saving people and working against the Others which is actually the main purpose the NW. It can be argued that Mance is one of the few NW actually keeping his oath, or at least the oldest and most important part of it. Daeron was whoring.

Given singers in this series are rather questionable and highly associated with liars though some are better than others (Mance is also a singer and a trickster figure) and we see Daeron go to whoring at the first chance, this clues us in that Daeron probably did what he was accused of and apparently learned nothing from it.

 

I really don't see how him going whoring right away supports the idea that he raped a lord's daughter. If anything it supports his own story more, he thinks with his dick and didn't think of the consequences of bedding the daughter of a powerful lord not that it's a particularly strong bit of evidence either way since he's been trapped in a celibate penal colony so it's not really surprising he wants to go out and have a good time. 

Personally I think he's telling the truth, who the fuck's gonna infiltrate the castle of one of the most powerful lords in the Reach to rape his daughter and then hang around long enough to get caught and then continue to protest your innocence when you've been sent to a penal colony for the rest of your life with no chance of being set free. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Trigger Warning said:

 

I really don't see how him going whoring right away supports the idea that he raped a lord's daughter. If anything it supports his own story more, he thinks with his dick and didn't think of the consequences of bedding the daughter of a powerful lord not that it's a particularly strong bit of evidence either way since he's been trapped in a celibate penal colony so it's not really surprising he wants to go out and have a good time. 

Personally I think he's telling the truth, who the fuck's gonna infiltrate the castle of one of the most powerful lords in the Reach to rape his daughter and then hang around long enough to get caught and then continue to protest your innocence when you've been sent to a penal colony for the rest of your life with no chance of being set free. 

 

Bold: Marillion tried just that with LF's daughter. Then there's Bael the Bard.  Singers are invited to castles as entertainers and often stay extended periods of time. No infiltrating.

Daeron's anger comes off as sincere. My read is the daughter fell for the singer (like how Sansa seems enamored of them and how Marillion seems to expect her to react to his advances), but they were caught and the daughter cried rape or the father claimed rape to cover it up.

 

Edited by Lollygag

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Bold: Marillion tried just that with LF's daughter. Then there's Bael the Bard.  Singers are invited to castles as entertainers and often stay extended periods of time. No infiltrating.

Daeron's anger comes off as sincere. My read is the daughter fell for the singer (like how Sansa seems enamored of them and how Marillion seems to expect her to react to his advances), but they were caught and the daughter cried rape or the father claimed rape to cover it up.

 

 

Granted I didn't mean him scaling the walls, simply sneaking through a guarded castle to her room which he says she helped him into and at least with Marillion he enjoys the favour of Lysa and believes Sansa to be Littlefinger's bastard daughter, as awful as it is that confidence stems from the power he believes he holds over her within that castle. I don't think Daeron would have enjoyed that privilege at Goldengrove. 

I read it the exact same way, it was consensual and then she claimed rape or Mathis did to cover it up. So I can't really blame him for taking the first opportunity to escape a life of servitude that has been forced on him, it is of course selfish but should he risk missing the opportunity for freedom to continue escorting a man that's going to die on the journey anyway. 

His oaths were basically taken at sword point and his entire life consigned to servitude simply because he was foolish enough to get on the bad side of a powerful man. 

Edited by Trigger Warning

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Martin probably hates singers very much, considering the fate of Symon Silver Tongue, Marillion, Blue Bard and Dareon, only the guy who wrote Floppy fish is still alive and kicking. 

Funny thing two have names reminiscent of Silmarillion, Dareon was greatest ministrel of the Elves, only Maglor from House of Feanor coming close to his skill, he also ratted out Luthien to his father, so they seem to be slimy in both stories.

If he left Night Watch and helped Sam and others find a ship it would be maybe less reprehensible.

Though Arya with his murder is bit crossing the line from taking vengeance to specific crimes, to exacting her distorted view on justice  by killing a man in secret- punishment for desertion should be public as a deterrent, and also stealing his boots. 

 Mance as it said is considered deserter yet he became King of the Wildlings and has done some good possibly, even Jon tried to desert, some sort o last chance/death-scare would be more fitting in my opinion.

 

 

Edited by Eltharion21

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Trigger Warning said:

 

Granted I didn't mean him scaling the walls, simply sneaking through a guarded castle to her room which he says she helped him into and at least with Marillion he enjoys the favour of Lysa and believes Sansa to be Littlefinger's bastard daughter, as awful as it is that confidence stems from the power he believes he holds over her within that castle. I don't think Daeron would have enjoyed that privilege at Goldengrove. 

I read it the exact same way, it was consensual and then she claimed rape to cover it up. So I can't really blame him for taking the first opportunity to escape a life of servitude that has been forced on him, it is of course selfish but should he risk missing the opportunity for freedom to continue escorting a man that's going to die on the journey anyway. 

His oaths were basically taken at sword point and his entire life consigned to servitude simply because he was foolish enough to get on the bad side of a powerful man. 

I'm sympathetic to that situation but I don't have any for his arrogance and stupidity. He's still guilty of presumably deflowering and disgracing a Lord's daughter which is a big deal in Westeros (Lysa) and potentially interfered or destroyed a potential alliance if she was already engaged and ruined her prospects as it may benefit the family. He knew how it would go if they were caught and did it anyways. If he took advantage of someone naive like Sansa, throw the book at him, but if it was more like a fling with someone more worldly like Marg and they were on more equal footing then whatever, but I don't recall that we have that information.

If the Others hadn't been threatening, he'd had a reason for wanting his freedom beyond whoring, and he'd shown some humanity towards a nice dying old man, the fumbling Sam and Gilly, then I could have some sympathy for his escape. As such, I don't.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, TheLastWolf said:

He wanted to whore around while the world is going to end. Armageddon. Apocalypse. Others. Invasion. A time when he was needed the most. 

 

Needed for what? Jon wanted him to act as a recruiter, send more young men to serve the rest of their lives on the Wall. Why would he want to do that?

And does Dareon even see it as an Armageddon event? Dareon was sent to Eastwatch and I'm not sure how clued in the rank and file are on about the situation with the Others. Nothing Dareon says suggests he was aware that an Apocalypse was coming.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

If he left Night Watch and helped Sam and others find a ship it would be maybe less reprehensible

Sam was the one stopping them from finding another ship as Aemon was too sick to travel.

Dareon was expected to sing and earn them money to survive in Braavos. He was doing that, but also spending the money he earnt on whores.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I'm sympathetic to that situation but I don't have any for his arrogance and stupidity. He's still guilty of presumably deflowering and disgracing a Lord's daughter which is a big deal in Westeros (Lysa) and potentially interfered or destroyed a potential alliance if she was already engaged and ruined her prospects as it may benefit the family. He knew how it would go if they were caught and did it anyways. If he took advantage of someone naive like Sansa, throw the book at him, but if it was more like a fling with someone more worldly like Marg and they were on more equal footing then whatever, but I don't recall that we have that information.

If the Others hadn't been threatening, he'd had a reason for wanting his freedom beyond whoring, and he'd shown some humanity towards a nice dying old man, the fumbling Sam and Gilly, then I could have some sympathy for his escape. As such, I don't.

 

I don't really care about him potentially ruining a marriage alliance, if it was consensual then he doesn't deserve what happened to him, why would I want the book thrown at him. Even is she was naive why should he have the book thrown at him for raping her if it was consensual, he had no power over her, she as a noble was the one in a position of privilege. Naivety doesn't make a rape, he was sent to the wall for raping someone and if he didn't rape her it is an injustice, whether it was foolish or not to tangle with his lords and masters doesn't matter since we're discussing the morality of his actions. 

It's foolish to resist arrest in America but I still sympathise with people when they get unnecessarily gunned down because it is injustice, the reality of the power imbalance in his society doesn't change that. 

Sure he was an arrogant dick and it's fine to not sympathise with him but many people in the fanbase actively celebrate his brutal murder and that's what the OP is talking about. 

Also what does "wanting his freedom beyond whoring" mean, does he need to pursue some higher purpose to not live a life of what is basically slavery for a crime he didn't commit? And looking after Sam, Aemon and Gilly falls in line with that. Was it selfish? Sure. But being saddled with them was part of the life he was trying to escape, a life he was forced into. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ive got nothing but love for Westeros bards. Nothin but love. I also see the brothers of the wall as the tragic slaves they are, destined to serve a weeping wall.

Any man who seeks his own destiny, fights the fate that his oppressive government demands, is cool by my definition. And if hes got bars, gods bless 

Whatd he do? Allow a dying man to die? (Who wanted to serve Dany btw, mad illegal for a crow) I felt bad for Sam and the other two, but not enough to vilify Daeron. I truly thought his death was one of the great tragedies of asoiaf, but im glad it happend. Any and every step Arya takes to the dark side is a blessing :devil:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Men in Black are first line of defense against possible alien invasion and so by leaving his duties as a member of NW Dareon made that possible invasion easier. Or his desertion endangered lives of all people who are protected by NW.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't hate him, but his actions at the end make him unlikable. For me it's the how more than anything. He told Sam he would get money, for food, to settle their debt for the room that he used too etc. then never came back. If he'd told them I'm leaving, I was sent to the wall for a crime I didn't commit, I'm no soldier, I'm never going back to that awful place. Letting Sam know that he had to find another way to get money and a ship, I'd not respect him but I could understand. But he told a terrified woman with a sick infant, a dying man and the guy that couldn't leave because he was caring for them all that he'd take care of the debt he helped run up, and get them food. Then left them to starve.

That is vile.

A decent human being would tell Sam the truth. Or give them the first round of money then state that there will be no more. It's how he thought only of himself, and was willing to risk a baby dying so he could be a singing Bravo that I don't like. He is enacting the husband goes out for a pack of cigarettes and never returns because being a dad is to hard trope. None of them wanted that life, none of them were happy with how things were going with Aemon and the baby being sick. Who would? But that doesn't change the fact that he abandoned people who's lives depended on him without even having the human decency to let them know he was leaving. It's not like they could stop him. He had no reason to think Sam would execute him for desertion. So he had no reason not to be upfront about his intentions. Why he was sent to the wall is irrelevant. Why he chose to leave is irrelevant. The how is despicable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well first there's a huge difference between the reasons Mance and Dareon deserted. Still, I have no problem with Dareon deserting the Night's Watch. It's a band of criminal conscripts he was forced against his will to join. I do have a serious problem with him abandoning Aemon to die like he did. So screw him.

That doesn't justify Arya murdering him regardless.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Needed for what? Jon wanted him to act as a recruiter, send more young men to serve the rest of their lives on the Wall

If the Others breach the Wall, those lives would be very short. 

20 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Why would he want to do that?

This is a feudal setup. You have to do as your Lord Commander says. Or haven't you noticed that? 

20 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

And does Dareon even see it as an Armageddon event? Dareon was sent to Eastwatch and I'm not sure how clued in the rank and file are on about the situation with the Others. Nothing Dareon says suggests he was aware that an Apocalypse was coming.

Ignorance is not an excuse. He broke his vows without any meaningful reason. 

No use arguing further. We differ in our opinions and neither of us will convince the other. Peace 

Edited by TheLastWolf
Peace

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

If the Others breach the Wall, those lives would be very short. 

We don't know that, and Dareon sure as shit does not know that.

You are mistaking the readers' knowledge on the Others, with the characters. It seems bizarre to me that readers constantly do this.

7 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

This is a feudal setup. You have to do as your Lord Commander says. Or haven't you noticed that? 

Dude, I love the condescension.

Yes, obviously I have noticed that. Daeron is no longer in Westeros, bound to the laws of that realm. His days as a slave  to the Watch is over.

Do you believe that people should be slaves to the Watch because that are the laws of the land?

 

7 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

Ignorance is not an excuse. He broke his vows without any meaningful reason. 

He had a great reason. He was forced to take those vows at swordpoint.

7 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

No use arguing further. We differ in our opinions and neither of us will convince the other. Peace 

Cool.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure Dareon is hated by many people.

Might be that people do not like him much to feel better about Arya killing him, but I definitely sympathize with him. He was forced to take the black against his will, meaning he is under no moral obligation to return to Westeros when he finally realizes that he has a chance for a different, better life.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No idea why. I always saw him as a tragic victim of a system working against him and Arya being a judgmental homicidal sociopath acting as judge jury and executioner.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...