Why Do People Hate Daeron?

[Alyn Oakenfist]

7 hours ago, GoldenGail3 said:

Because he abandoned the NW to go fucking whores.

Yes, he abandoned such a noble organization. And what a betrayal, to abandon the people he was a forced at swordpoint to join over doing nothing wrong. So awful of him to refuse having his entire life stolen away from him.

[GoldenGail3]

1 minute ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Yes, he abandoned such a noble organization. And what a betrayal, to abandon the people he was a forced at swordpoint to join over doing nothing wrong. So awful of him to refuse having his entire life stolen away from him.

but he actually might've raped that girl though...

[Alyn Oakenfist]

3 minutes ago, GoldenGail3 said:

but he actually might've raped that girl though...

And that's why the Westerosi legal system is great. Nothing beats sending a man to life in basically prison over "might have". Also there wasn't that much incentive to ever lie about it wasn't it? So he probably didn't do it either

[GoldenGail3]

1 minute ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

And that's why the Westerosi legal system is great. Nothing beats sending a man to life in basically prison over "might have". Also there wasn't that much incentive to ever lie about it wasn't it? So he probably didn't do it either

Why are you defending a man that abandoned Samwell Tarly and an innocent mother for a whore and some coin? Who broke his oaths to the Night's Watch by wedding a woman? 

Also, there's no proof that he didn't rape her. Just his word. And we know what a word of a deserter of the Nights Watch is worth.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, GoldenGail3 said:

Also, there's no proof that he didn't rape her. Just his word. And we know what a word of a deserter of the Nights Watch is worth.

Ned Stark called he wants that judgmental attitude back.

Also what you do is circular thinking. You assume he did it in bad faith because he deserted, something you only assume he did in bad faith because you think he raped that girl, something you only think because he broke his vows.

2 minutes ago, GoldenGail3 said:

Why are you defending a man that abandoned Samwell Tarly and an innocent mother for a whore and some coin? Who broke his oaths to the Night's Watch by wedding a woman? 

The oaths are the problem here. Him breaking said oaths seems like a no brainer if he had even a shred of self esteem and he's telling the truth.

Also why wouldn't he tell his brothers the truth. He's there with far worse then rapists. There is not a single shred of evidence saying he isn't truthful and quite a lot that he is. His story makes perfect sense given what we know of Westeros

[Eltharion21]

1 hour ago, GoldenGail3 said:

but he actually might've raped that girl though...

We can't be sure but his story seems plausible:

"Lord Rowan of Goldengrove found him in bed with his daughter. The girl was two years older, and Dareon swears she helped him through her window, but under her father's eye she named it rape, so here he is. When Maester Aemon heard him sing, he said his voice was honey poured over thunder."

Singers are usually considered popular among opposite sex.

Fair-haired and hazel-eyed, the handsome young singer out of Eastwatch looked more like some dark prince than a black brother.

He also seems genuinely angered  by the whole incident:

"I'm a better swordsman and a better rider than any of you," Jon blazed back. "It's not fair."

"Fair?" Dareon sneered. "The girl was waiting for me, naked as the day she was born. She pulled me through the window, and you talk to me of fair?" He walked off.

[Lollygag]

 

Family fortunes are made with marriage alliances. So is war prevented with them. The Game is played largely through marriage alliances. I see the modern perspective here that Daeron didn't deserve what he got and I agree as I have my doubts about it being an actual rape, but in Westeros, lives and a family's survival may be at risk for Daeron's and the daughter's actions. The house is in a a situation where the right choices could greatly expand their standing through their association with the Tyrells. Because of Westeros' structure, what Daeron did was quite serious and he should've known as much.

He also has no sons and three daughters, so we have to wonder if the daughter involved was the heir.

 

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Rowan

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A Storm of Swords

At a meeting of the small council, tracts are awarded to House Rowan.^[18] At the feast after the wedding of Tyrion Lannister to Sansa Stark, Lord Rowan dances with her.^[19] Mathis gives Joffrey a red silk pavilion as a wedding gift.^[20] A man sworn to House Rowan stabs a Dornishman during the royal wedding of Joffrey and Margaery Tyrell.^[21] An archer in Rowan livery tells Ser Jaime Lannister that Sansa Stark killed Joffrey.^[22]

A Feast for Crows

Ser Kevan Lannister names Lord Mathis as a good candidate to fill the vacant position as Hand of the King during his meeting with Queen Cersei; the queen instead revokes Mathis's council seat altogether.^[23] Mathis attends the wedding of King Tommen I and Margaery Tyrell.^[24] Mathis marches with Lord Mace Tyrell to lay siege to Storm's End.^[25]

A Dance with Dragons

Lord Mathis remains in command^[26] of a token force at Storm's End^[27] when Mace returns to King's Landing.^[28]

 

[SeanF]

On 21 September 2020 at 10:54 AM, Eltharion21 said:

Martin probably hates singers very much, considering the fate of Symon Silver Tongue, Marillion, Blue Bard and Dareon, only the guy who wrote Floppy fish is still alive and kicking. 

Funny thing two have names reminiscent of Silmarillion, Dareon was greatest ministrel of the Elves, only Maglor from House of Feanor coming close to his skill, he also ratted out Luthien to his father, so they seem to be slimy in both stories.

If he left Night Watch and helped Sam and others find a ship it would be maybe less reprehensible.

Though Arya with his murder is bit crossing the line from taking vengeance to specific crimes, to exacting her distorted view on justice  by killing a man in secret- punishment for desertion should be public as a deterrent, and also stealing his boots. 

 Mance as it said is considered deserter yet he became King of the Wildlings and has done some good possibly, even Jon tried to desert, some sort o last chance/death-scare would be more fitting in my opinion.

 

 

They do have a reputation for seducing girls and women, like Princess Ghael.

I don't hate Daeron, but dislike the way he ratted on his comrades.

[Bernie Mac]

7 hours ago, GoldenGail3 said:

Why are you defending a man that abandoned Samwell Tarly and an innocent mother for a whore and some coin?

He has no responsibility towards them. He knew Sam for a few months before he was shipped off to Eastwatch by the Sea and does not know Gilly or her child at all.

And he did not abandon them, he was sent out to earn money for them because Sam made a decision to get off the boat.  Dareon was using some of the money he was making to spend on himself.

They had no wine. Dareon had promised to buy some with the coin from his singing. "We'll have wine later," Sam had to say.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"There's no more wood." Dareon had paid the innkeep double for a room with a hearth, but none of them had realized that wood would be so costly here.

Dareon was expected to support these people he was not related to, not really close to all because Sam made the bad decision of taking them off the boat and would not find work for himself.

And Dareon was supporting them, though he was also using some (maybe most) of the money he earned on whores and alcohol. I'd think him a much better person if he did was selfless, but I don't think any worse of him for doing what he did in Braavos.

 

I personally don't think Dareon has any obligation to Sam, Aemon, Gilly or her child. The fact that he was helping them is actually a nice thing he was doing. Sam, confronting him when he was drunk and ordering him to go home, more than likely was the reason he quit. Sam beating the shit out of him is Sam overreacting in this situation. Dareon was the victim in that situation.

Arya murdering him was also out of order. He is not bound by the laws of Westeros in Essos. She has no authority to be handing out punishments to such men. And the irony is her father was murdered legally in Westeros, if any characters should be questioning if the laws of Westeros are fair, it should be people like Arya.

 

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Who broke his oaths to the Night's Watch by wedding a woman? 

Sam and Jon were no better when they had sex with women. Drunk Dareon 'married' a whore who married all her clients. I'm 90% sure these are not official weddings.

Morality wise I don't care that Dareon broke an oath he was made to have at sword point.

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Also, there's no proof that he didn't rape her. Just his word.

True. He may have done. Which would make him an awful man, though there are certainly degrees to rape so degrees to how bad he could be. The fact that Dareon is legally paying for sex in Braavos suggests, though does not prove, that he is not a serial rapist or does not get off on the power aspect.

But I'm not sure what this has to do with your argument? Would your position change if you were told that Dareon was innocent of his crimes? Would you forgive him of breaking his oaths to the Watch and abandoning Sam, Gilly and Aemon?

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And we know what a word of a deserter of the Nights Watch is worth.

We actually do. Had Ned listened to the word of a deserted Night Watch member in the opening chapters of the series the realm would be in a much better position.

 

[corbon]

5 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

We can't be sure but his story seems plausible:

"Lord Rowan of Goldengrove found him in bed with his daughter. The girl was two years older, and Dareon swears she helped him through her window, but under her father's eye she named it rape, so here he is. When Maester Aemon heard him sing, he said his voice was honey poured over thunder."

Singers are usually considered popular among opposite sex.

Fair-haired and hazel-eyed, the handsome young singer out of Eastwatch looked more like some dark prince than a black brother.

He also seems genuinely angered  by the whole incident:

"I'm a better swordsman and a better rider than any of you," Jon blazed back. "It's not fair."

"Fair?" Dareon sneered. "The girl was waiting for me, naked as the day she was born. She pulled me through the window, and you talk to me of fair?" He walked off.

I doubt it was rape. 

But it was a serious offense anyway, and he knew that going in. He took a risk and it worked out badly. He also callously risked destroying the girls life for his own temporary physical pleasure. So no sympathy there from me even if it wasn't rape, and even if he was screwed by the system. 

Dareon it seems is a man who lives only for himself. He has no sense of respect for others. He is not worthy of our respect, and thats instinctively obvious to most people who therefore instinctive lean away from him.

[TheLastWolf]

23 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

You are mistaking the readers' knowledge on the Others, with the characters

He was a member of the Watch. Surely everyone there knows about the Fist of first men Other incident? Only those who dismiss these as snarks and grumpkins like Randyll Tarly are ignorant. Not men of the NW. 

23 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Dude, I love the condescension.

Sorry. Went a bit over the top. 

23 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yes, obviously I have noticed that. Daeron is no longer in Westeros, bound to the laws of that realm. His days as a slave  to the Watch is over.

What an astounding logic. Barristan fought the Blackfyres in the Stepstones. Out of Westeros. If he had turned and killed Aerys (impossible, knowing him, but for argument's sake) , would you be on his side?

23 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

He had a great reason. He was forced to take those vows at swordpoint.

Dareon was an apprentice singer in the Reach, before being caught in bed with a daughter of Lord Mathis Rowan of Goldengrove. Though Dareon maintains that she was waiting for him naked and helped him into her room, under her father's eye she named it rape. For this Dareon was sent to the Wall.

His word against a Lord's. Why would Rowan knowingly tarnish his daughter's name by announcing it a rape?

As far as I've seen in Westeros, highborn rape victims are more stigmatized than highborn ladies having consensual sex with lowborn singers and such. Gatehouse Ami is called a slut while Lollys is called the mother to a child of hundred fathers. 

23 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Cool

Cool too

15 hours ago, GoldenGail3 said:

Because he abandoned the NW to go fucking whores.

Yep. 

[Bernie Mac]

2 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

He was a member of the Watch. Surely everyone there knows about the Fist of first men Other incident? Only those who dismiss these as snarks and grumpkins like Randyll Tarly are ignorant. Not men of the NW. 

They have no idea if this army means the end of the world, like some in this thread suggested (not claiming you did, but others have).

And I'm not sure he was there. He's not a ranger. Only 300 men of the Watch were there and Dareon, being made a Steward, may well have not made the cut. But even if he was, I'm not sure that means he thinks the threat the same as the reader does.

Dareon clearly does not think they mean the end of the world; "No. I'm done with you. I'm done with black." Dareon tore his cloak off his naked bride and tossed it in Sam's face. "Here. Throw that rag on the old man, it may keep him a little warmer. I shan't be needing it. I'll be clad in velvet soon. Next year I'll be wearing furs and eating—"

It is unclear how serious the threat Dareon sees them. The Wildlings may well be the bigger threat in his eyes.

2 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Sorry. Went a bit over the top. 

No worries. I was actually sincere, as I am guilty of that sometimes and it's a relief being in conversations with other blunt people as I worry less about my own words.

Nothing worse than rereading what I said and realizing how dickish I came off.

2 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

What an astounding logic. Barristan fought the Blackfyres in the Stepstones. Out of Westeros. If he had turned and killed Aerys (impossible, knowing him, but for argument's sake) , would you be on his side?

Barristan was not forced to make his vows at swordpoint. He willingly chose them and, as we see, the Kingsguard live a pretty charmed life.

And this is a pretty weak comparison. Dareon has not turned around and killed anyone. If Barristan, in the Stepstones, decided that he was no longer going to serve the Targrayens and abandoned the royal army I would have no problem with that. None whatsover.

And I think you actually agree. Otherwise, why would you have to completely change the scenario, from abandonment to murder?

2 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Dareon was an apprentice singer in the Reach, before being caught in bed with a daughter of Lord Mathis Rowan of Goldengrove. Though Dareon maintains that she was waiting for him naked and helped him into her room, under her father's eye she named it rape. For this Dareon was sent to the Wall.

His word against a Lord's. Why would Rowan knowingly tarnish his daughter's name by announcing it a rape?

There are many reasons. If his daughter was found out to be willingly sleeping with peasants then that is going to look worse for any prospective husbands.

His daughter, by being the victim, escapes with her reputation. Having a bard go around the Reach singing about how he banged Rowan's daughter is not something Rowan would want.

The secret was out, they had been caught in bed with each other. The daughter or Lord Rowan himself, will have wanted to keep her reputation intact.

2 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

As far as I've seen in Westeros, highborn rape victims are more stigmatized than highborn ladies having consensual sex with lowborn singers and such.

I'm not sure that true.

2 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Gatehouse Ami is called a slut while Lollys is called the mother to a child of hundred fathers. 

Again, pretty poor comparison. A massive gang rape which ended up in pregnancy is not the same as what Dareon did. The fact that you need to make these poor comparisons kind of suggests that you know your argument can't stand on its own. 

Ami was caught having sex. She was then made to marry a peasant, likely, because her options were severely restricted, much like the pregnant Lollys. They both appear to have been in the same boat after their scandal.

 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

3 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

As far as I've seen in Westeros, highborn rape victims are more stigmatized than highborn ladies having consensual sex with lowborn singers and such. Gatehouse Ami is called a slut while Lollys is called the mother to a child of hundred fathers. 

I'm not sure but weren't all of Ami's lovers highborn, or at least knights?

[broken one]

People hate Dareon because he could have easily earned amount of cash needed to repair Aemons health a bit and get on a ship from Braavos. He pissed on innocent people who were his company, did not force him to join NW or anything etc., for him they could have died - no probs, and it was not decent at all. If I were him I would have helped and then said farewell. Id rather sing songs and have fun with whores in Braavos than travel all over Westeros searching for suckers and criminals and get murdered by one of them, cannot blame him for desertion.

[Bernie Mac]

3 hours ago, broken one said:

People hate Dareon because he could have easily earned amount of cash needed to repair Aemons health

How do you figure that?

"Instead he had squandered the last of their silver on a healer from the House of the Red Hands, a tall pale man in robes embroidered with swirling stripes of red and white. All that the silver bought him was half a flask of dreamwine. "This may help gentle his passing," the Braavosi had said, not unkindly. When Sam asked if there wasn't any more that he could do, he shook his head. "Ointments I have, potions and infusions, tinctures and venoms and poultices. I might bleed him, purge him, leech him . . . but why? No leech can make him young again. This is an old man, and death is in his lungs. Give him this and let him sleep."

Aemon is a 102 years of age. There is no medicine that can repair his health. It was pretty much a death sentence sending him to travel from the Wall.

Quote

 

a bit and get on a ship from Braavos.

It was Sam who stopped them from doing this. He did not want to travel while Aemon was ill.

Quote

 

He pissed on innocent people who were his company, did not force him to join NW or anything etc., for him they could have died - no probs, and it was not decent at all. If I were him I would have helped and then said farewell.

He was helping. He was earning money for the room and food. The issue is not that he was not helping, but that he was also using the money to enjoy himself.

 

[broken one]

39 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

How do you figure that?

 

 

you omitted "a bit". Dareon disappears for days and nights while they sit in the inn hungry and cold. Ive read the chapters recently and wonder how you figure he paid for anything. 

[TheLastWolf]

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

They have no idea if this army means the end of the world, like some in this thread suggested (not claiming you did, but others have).

And I'm not sure he was there. He's not a ranger. Only 300 men of the Watch were there and Dareon, being made a Steward, may well have not made the cut. But even if he was, I'm not sure that means he thinks the threat the same as the reader does.

Dareon clearly does not think they mean the end of the world; "No. I'm done with you. I'm done with black." Dareon tore his cloak off his naked bride and tossed it in Sam's face. "Here. Throw that rag on the old man, it may keep him a little warmer. I shan't be needing it. I'll be clad in velvet soon. Next year I'll be wearing furs and eating—"

It is unclear how serious the threat Dareon sees them. The Wildlings may well be the bigger threat in his eyes.

No worries. I was actually sincere, as I am guilty of that sometimes and it's a relief being in conversations with other blunt people as I worry less about my own words.

Nothing worse than rereading what I said and realizing how dickish I came off.

Barristan was not forced to make his vows at swordpoint. He willingly chose them and, as we see, the Kingsguard live a pretty charmed life.

And this is a pretty weak comparison. Dareon has not turned around and killed anyone. If Barristan, in the Stepstones, decided that he was no longer going to serve the Targrayens and abandoned the royal army I would have no problem with that. None whatsover.

And I think you actually agree. Otherwise, why would you have to completely change the scenario, from abandonment to murder?

There are many reasons. If his daughter was found out to be willingly sleeping with peasants then that is going to look worse for any prospective husbands.

His daughter, by being the victim, escapes with her reputation. Having a bard go around the Reach singing about how he banged Rowan's daughter is not something Rowan would want.

The secret was out, they had been caught in bed with each other. The daughter or Lord Rowan himself, will have wanted to keep her reputation intact.

I'm not sure that true.

Again, pretty poor comparison. A massive gang rape which ended up in pregnancy is not the same as what Dareon did. The fact that you need to make these poor comparisons kind of suggests that you know your argument can't stand on its own. 

Ami was caught having sex. She was then made to marry a peasant, likely, because her options were severely restricted, much like the pregnant Lollys. They both appear to have been in the same boat after their scandal.

 

Agree to disagree please. Damn, that is the 4th time I've had to ask that over the past couple of days. 

4 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I'm not sure but weren't all of Ami's lovers highborn, or at least knights?

Good thing you weren't sure. 

Ami had to be married off to a hedge night (Ser Pate or somebody) after she had been found with no fewer than 3 stable boys. But she came running back a widow (to the delight of every stableboy) after her husband Ser Pate (or somebody) decided to win fame by challenging Ser Gregor Clegane to a duel.

From the epilogue of ASOS (Merret's regrets) text, but not exact words or accurately or anything, but gets the point across. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

Just now, TheLastWolf said:

Good thing you weren't sure. 

Ami had to be married off to a hedge night (Ser Pate or somebody) after she had been found with no fewer than 3 stable boys. But she came running back a widow (to the delight of every stableboy) after her husband Ser Pate (or somebody) decided to win fame by challenging Ser Gregor Clegane to a duel.

Thanks! Still I do think Lollys gets treated worse then Ami not because one was rape and another consensual, but because Lollys is in King's Landing and that she's a simpleton

[sweetsunray]

On 9/21/2020 at 5:34 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I have been thinking about this for awhile. I get that Daeron is not a pinnacle of virtue. He abandons Sam and Maester Aemon (although I think the Maester was dying either way). However, people on this forum often love Mance Raydar, another black brother who abandoned his post. I am sure Mance is personally responsible for a slew of other Ranger’s deaths. Why is Daeron for wanting freedom where Mance is loved for the same thing. Daeron claims from our earliest introduction to him that he didn’t commit the crime that landed him on the Wall, and...considering the circumstances, seems fairly possible he is telling the truth. So he has been sentenced to a life of servitude for a crime he didn’t commit. Yet, everyone just hates him on this forum. Why? I honestly just don’t get it. So I want to hear your explanations and would also like to hear from those that don’t hate him. 

While initially Dareon's defense story seems plausible and I assumed him innocent of the crime he was sent to the Wall for, his actions and choices at Braavos made me reconsider his potential guilt of his original crime.

I can understand him seeing the trip to Braavos as a way out of the NW. Nevertheless he also took on a responsibility on that voyage, at least until maester Aemon, Sam, Gilly and the baby are on a ship to Oldtown. It doesn't matter whether that's within the NW or as a traveling group. They're companions. Worse, he was deceiving Sam while doing this: promising to return with goods and money. If you're not willing to help anyone out, at least have the effing decency to tell so immediately, rather than promising you will, then go out having fun and let them starve and freeze and have them believe you'll appear. At least then Sam would have the necessary knowledge to act independently, as he did once he knew Dareon was abandoning them and wasn't going to be of any help whatsoever. Dareon is an utterly shitty human being for abandoning maester Aemon and Sam the way he did, all so he could waste his money on peacock plumes.

And then there is his very noted interest in the daughter of the Sailor's Wife, Lanna. So, Dareon wed the Sailor's wife to bed her, but then also shows a lot of sexual interest in the 14 year old Lanna. Even if the wedding to the Sailor's Wife is a sham ceremony, technically it makes Dareon Lanna's stepfather, lusting for a Lolita. Sure, both Lanna and her mother are prostitutes, but I find any adult man lusting after a 14 year old girl disgusting. The existence of child prostitution doesn't make the customers good people. Combine it with the complete abandonment of a sick old man, while he could have helped him, and it reaffirms that Dareon is a shitty man with low morals, no empathy for even people he supposedly bonded with.

Finally, he does know the Others are threatening Westeros. Even if he wants to abandon the NW (innocent or not so innocent), a concerned human being would try to help at least partially, rather than dress like a peacock and go whoring.

So these are three major red flags all by themselves. His interest in Lanna makes me seriously doubt his claim of innocence to the accusation that he raped a nobleman's daughter, and I think we can compare him to the likes of Marillion. I don't care so much about "breaking the NW vows" as I do about a character acting morally and empathically with the people he or she knows and with the knowledge they have.

Arguments can be made that Mance was selfish for desiring the freedom to wear a red lined cloak over a full black one, and for organizing raids and killing men of the NW. He certainly starts out as an enemy, and as a former NW man going over to the enemy and entering in a way of life where he's bound to fight his former brothers is a severe betrayal. However, by the time we actually meet him, he's not just a betrayer of former brothers. His choice actually put him in the thick of the war with the Others, and he took up that gauntlet, uniting the wildlings and taking on the mission to save all the human beings living north of the Wall. Ultimately that makes him a man who initially made a selfish choice but turns out to be a responsible man who cares about people's survival - young, old, weak and strong - even if he doesn't know them personally. That makes him an inherent better man of far more moral character than Dareon. If Dareon is to be compared to someone, it should be Yoren imho. Yoren is a hero. Dareon is just shitty and no loss.

[Hugorfonics]

Why does Aemon get a pass for trying to abandon Sam?