The Meereense blot

[mushroomshirt]

1 hour ago, Dracul's Daughter said:

@mushroomshirt you can read the whole essay here.

https://towerofthehand.com/blog/2015/02/01-laboratory-of-politics-part-vi/noscript.html#wages

 

Thank you!  That's super helpful.  I think it's a great article too and I would say that the key point in it is this:

"At the end of the day, here is where I come down on the question of peace: regardless of whether peace was possible, one thing that is indisputable is that no peace with justice was possible."

So in this way Steven and Adams essays can coexist, because they are not actually making the same point.  Adam is arguing that peace is possible.  Steven is arguing that peace with justice is not possible.  

@SeanF sorry I will read your posts more carefully.  Thank you for sharing your opinions on this. 

[SeanF]

22 minutes ago, mushroomshirt said:

Thank you!  That's super helpful.  I think it's a great article too and I would say that the key point in it is this:

"At the end of the day, here is where I come down on the question of peace: regardless of whether peace was possible, one thing that is indisputable is that no peace with justice was possible."

So in this way Steven and Adams essays can coexist, because they are not actually making the same point.  Adam is arguing that peace is possible.  Steven is arguing that peace with justice is not possible.  

@SeanF sorry I will read your posts more carefully.  Thank you for sharing your opinions on this. 

That’s a good summary.

My view is that Feldman is great on characterisation and themes, but weak on plot.

His dismissal of the Volentenes is a rotten plank in his argument, in my view.

[Dracul's Daughter]

24 minutes ago, mushroomshirt said:

Thank you!  That's super helpful.  I think it's a great article too and I would say that the key point in it is this:

"At the end of the day, here is where I come down on the question of peace: regardless of whether peace was possible, one thing that is indisputable is that no peace with justice was possible."

So in this way Steven and Adams essays can coexist, because they are not actually making the same point.  Adam is arguing that peace is possible.  Steven is arguing that peace with justice is not possible.  

@SeanF sorry I will read your posts more carefully.  Thank you for sharing your opinions on this. 

You're welcome!

I also want you to ask : given the fact that Volantis declared war on Daenerys,whose side do you think the Wise and the Great Masters will be?

[mushroomshirt]

@SeanF & @Dracul's Daughter,

My own personal opinion is that the Volantenes are a wild card.  In a "Feldmaninan" scenario where we imagine that a fragile peace was secured between Dany, the Wise Masters and the Great Masters, the arrival of the Volantenes would be a crisis.  It seems to me likely that they would alter the balance of power and give the Great and Wise masters the power to force Dany into additional concessions to secure peace.  Perhaps these additional concessions would finally push Dany to the breaking point and war would result.

But I would argue that we also don't know all the details about what will happen with the Volantenes.  There are the red priests who we know are working to undermine the Volantenes.  It's certainly possible that the Volantene slaves in the fleet will revolt at the urging of the Red Temple.  There is also Victarion to consider.  His fleet is smaller but would apparently come in on Dany's side.  So even if Dany was able to account for the Volantenes, it's possible that forces nominally allied to her (Greyjoys and Red Temple) would nullify them.

I don't believe that Dany knew about the Volantene fleet before she went away with Drogon, so I don't think we could expect that they would enter into her calculations.  But as SeanF points out she could have known this or heard rumors about it.  It seems like it could not be more substantive than rumor based on Barristan's reaction when the Shavepate tells him about the Volantenes in "The Queensguard" chapter.  Skahaz presents this information as news and Barristan reacts to it as if he never has considered this possibility before.   

So I don't think we can hold Dany's failure to anticipate the Volantenes against her.  I also think that there is a real chance that any "Feldmanian" peace would survive the Volantenes (despite Dany's lack of planning for them) because there are significant new actors on the scene who will counterbalance the Volantenes.

Of course interested to hear different opinions or where I might be off-base.

[SeanF]

34 minutes ago, mushroomshirt said:

@SeanF & @Dracul's Daughter,

My own personal opinion is that the Volantenes are a wild card.  In a "Feldmaninan" scenario where we imagine that a fragile peace was secured between Dany, the Wise Masters and the Great Masters, the arrival of the Volantenes would be a crisis.  It seems to me likely that they would alter the balance of power and give the Great and Wise masters the power to force Dany into additional concessions to secure peace.  Perhaps these additional concessions would finally push Dany to the breaking point and war would result.

But I would argue that we also don't know all the details about what will happen with the Volantenes.  There are the red priests who we know are working to undermine the Volantenes.  It's certainly possible that the Volantene slaves in the fleet will revolt at the urging of the Red Temple.  There is also Victarion to consider.  His fleet is smaller but would apparently come in on Dany's side.  So even if Dany was able to account for the Volantenes, it's possible that forces nominally allied to her (Greyjoys and Red Temple) would nullify them.

I don't believe that Dany knew about the Volantene fleet before she went away with Drogon, so I don't think we could expect that they would enter into her calculations.  But as SeanF points out she could have known this or heard rumors about it.  It seems like it could not be more substantive than rumor based on Barristan's reaction when the Shavepate tells him about the Volantenes in "The Queensguard" chapter.  Skahaz presents this information as news and Barristan reacts to it as if he never has considered this possibility before.   

So I don't think we can hold Dany's failure to anticipate the Volantenes against her.  I also think that there is a real chance that any "Feldmanian" peace would survive the Volantenes (despite Dany's lack of planning for them) because there are significant new actors on the scene who will counterbalance the Volantenes.

Of course interested to hear different opinions or where I might be off-base.

It’s more that the Yunkish summoned Volantene aid.  The Volantenes are coming to re-enslave the population, and publicly torture Daenerys to death, to show their own slaves the folly of resistance. There is no deal to be done. The Great/Wise Masters won’t side with free Meereen.

[Dracul's Daughter]

1 hour ago, mushroomshirt said:

@SeanF & @Dracul's Daughter,

My own personal opinion is that the Volantenes are a wild card.  In a "Feldmaninan" scenario where we imagine that a fragile peace was secured between Dany, the Wise Masters and the Great Masters, the arrival of the Volantenes would be a crisis.  It seems to me likely that they would alter the balance of power and give the Great and Wise masters the power to force Dany into additional concessions to secure peace.  Perhaps these additional concessions would finally push Dany to the breaking point and war would result.

But I would argue that we also don't know all the details about what will happen with the Volantenes.  There are the red priests who we know are working to undermine the Volantenes.  It's certainly possible that the Volantene slaves in the fleet will revolt at the urging of the Red Temple.  There is also Victarion to consider.  His fleet is smaller but would apparently come in on Dany's side.  So even if Dany was able to account for the Volantenes, it's possible that forces nominally allied to her (Greyjoys and Red Temple) would nullify them.

I don't believe that Dany knew about the Volantene fleet before she went away with Drogon, so I don't think we could expect that they would enter into her calculations.  But as SeanF points out she could have known this or heard rumors about it.  It seems like it could not be more substantive than rumor based on Barristan's reaction when the Shavepate tells him about the Volantenes in "The Queensguard" chapter.  Skahaz presents this information as news and Barristan reacts to it as if he never has considered this possibility before.   

So I don't think we can hold Dany's failure to anticipate the Volantenes against her.  I also think that there is a real chance that any "Feldmanian" peace would survive the Volantenes (despite Dany's lack of planning for them) because there are significant new actors on the scene who will counterbalance the Volantenes.

Of course interested to hear different opinions or where I might be off-base.

As you might read from my comments,I don't think peace was ment to endure.I find it hard to believe that powerful people,so comfortable in a society like Slaver's Bay,would give up their high status just because Daenerys wants so.It's normal that they would fight back to keep their lives as they were before Dany showed up.She just turned their world upside down.Now,their slaves will start a revolution due to her.

[mushroomshirt]

1 hour ago, Dracul's Daughter said:

As you might read from my comments,I don't think peace was ment to endure.I find it hard to believe that powerful people,so comfortable in a society like Slaver's Bay,would give up their high status just because Daenerys wants so.It's normal that they would fight back to keep their lives as they were before Dany showed up.She just turned their world upside down.Now,their slaves will start a revolution due to her.

This certainly makes sense to me.  And I agree with you, assuming the Harpy's Sons and their allies are convinced that they can take back Meereen with little cost to themselves.  With the Volantene fleet they may believe this is true, but I'm not convinced it is.  Tyrion and Brown Ben Plumm are not convinced either, even though they know just about everything (except about Victarion who is on Dany's side).  So I would argue that it is not clear that war is the right strategy for the Great Masters even with the Volantenes.

They certainly wouldn't give up their high status just because Dany wants them too.  The only reason they would do that is because they are afraid of her or because she accommodates them.  I would argue that before Daznak's pit she has struck a good balance between fear and accommodation to maintain a stable peace.  After Drogon, that balance has been altered and the Yunkai become bolder.  If Daznak's pit doesn't happen then the arrival of the Volantene fleet (in response to the summons of the Yunkai as @SeanF points out) might do the same thing in spite of Dany's presence.  Surely it would shift the balance of power and force Dany to accommodate the Great Masters more if she wants to preserve the peace.  It could also lead to war if Dany is not willing to give in to their additional demands.

If we assume that Daznak's pit doesn't happen, Barristan does not depose Hizdar, Quentyn does not release the dragons, and the Volantene fleet arrives, this may cause the Yunkai to demand more concessions from Dany the same way they are demanding more concessions in the actual books (e.g. killing the dragons).  She would surely resist this and would either start negotiations or just attack

Spoiler

as Barristan does (hope this is not too spoilery - is it OK to post about WoW sample chapters?). 

If she chooses to negotiate, then in the mean-time maybe the Volantene slaves revolt and Victarion arrives and Dany is the one who starts asking for concessions from the slavers.  To me this seems also plausible in a non-Daznak universe.

I surely would agree that the peace is fragile and difficult to maintain, and could fail.  But I don't think it is doomed if Dany does not fly away with Drogon.  Going back to the points of Steven's essays, in the US Civil War analogy, peace was possible with the Confederate slavers because the Union side accommodated the slavers too much.  (hence peace without justice)  Dany could surely have adopted the same approach if she chose.

 

[Rose of Red Lake]

14 hours ago, SeanF said:

If Westeros had a role like Dux Bellorum, then she'd be ideal. 

It's true enough in real life that very few leaders can combine the skillset of military leader and effective politician.  Julius Caesar was one such, but I'd say his political skills deserted him towards the end. 

The best you can hope for in Martin's world is to have a successful military leader, who delegates civil matters to others, like Aegon I, or a successful politician who has a loyal commander, like Daeron the Good.

I think Dany did quite well when she focused on limited goals in post-conquest in Meereen. She could excel at both, but I think the key is staying in Essos, not leaving, and resisting the lure of absolute power through dragons.

5 hours ago, Targaryen Restoration said:

He has even said that he would have dressed up and fought against the Nazis.  The Ghiscari slavers are worse than nazis.

Here he actually talks about Dany and specifically says what he is doing with her character:

"what effect great power has upon a person"

"...controls what is in effect the only three nuclear weapons in the entire world"

[Dracul's Daughter]

1 hour ago, mushroomshirt said:

This certainly makes sense to me.  And I agree with you, assuming the Harpy's Sons and their allies are convinced that they can take back Meereen with little cost to themselves.  With the Volantene fleet they may believe this is true, but I'm not convinced it is.  Tyrion and Brown Ben Plumm are not convinced either, even though they know just about everything (except about Victarion who is on Dany's side).  So I would argue that it is not clear that war is the right strategy for the Great Masters even with the Volantenes.

They certainly wouldn't give up their high status just because Dany wants them too.  The only reason they would do that is because they are afraid of her or because she accommodates them.  I would argue that before Daznak's pit she has struck a good balance between fear and accommodation to maintain a stable peace.  After Drogon, that balance has been altered and the Yunkai become bolder.  If Daznak's pit doesn't happen then the arrival of the Volantene fleet (in response to the summons of the Yunkai as @SeanF points out) might do the same thing in spite of Dany's presence.  Surely it would shift the balance of power and force Dany to accommodate the Great Masters more if she wants to preserve the peace.  It could also lead to war if Dany is not willing to give in to their additional demands.

If we assume that Daznak's pit doesn't happen, Barristan does not depose Hizdar, Quentyn does not release the dragons, and the Volantene fleet arrives, this may cause the Yunkai to demand more concessions from Dany the same way they are demanding more concessions in the actual books (e.g. killing the dragons).  She would surely resist this and would either start negotiations or just attack

  Reveal hidden contents

as Barristan does (hope this is not too spoilery - is it OK to post about WoW sample chapters?). 

If she chooses to negotiate, then in the mean-time maybe the Volantene slaves revolt and Victarion arrives and Dany is the one who starts asking for concessions from the slavers.  To me this seems also plausible in a non-Daznak universe.

I surely would agree that the peace is fragile and difficult to maintain, and could fail.  But I don't think it is doomed if Dany does not fly away with Drogon.  Going back to the points of Steven's essays, in the US Civil War analogy, peace was possible with the Confederate slavers because the Union side accommodated the slavers too much.  (hence peace without justice)  Dany could surely have adopted the same approach if she chose.

 

No worries for spoilers.I don't mind them.I agree that the Masters became bolder when Dany locked her dragons and when she flew away with Drogon,hoping she would be dead.I would be pissed if Day would make more concessions to the Masters.As Martin said in one of his books,"Fevre Dream" : "You can't just go...usin' another kind of people,like they wasn't people at all.Know what I mean?Got to end,sooner or later.Better if it ends peaceful,but it's got to end even if it has to be with fire and blood,you see?"

[Hodor the Articulate]

18 hours ago, mushroomshirt said:

I don't think this is a fair characterization of Adam's essay.  There is nothing inexplicable about turning to fire and blood once Drogon shows up again.  Drogon is part of her, both her own person and her Targaryen heritage.  In a sense Drogon is an extension of Dany.   Drogon is not an inexplixable external actor!

I think they were just using Drogon's return to reference at what point Feldman thinks Dany turned to fire and blood; not to say that Drogon caused it.

16 hours ago, mushroomshirt said:

Thank you!  That's super helpful.  I think it's a great article too and I would say that the key point in it is this:

"At the end of the day, here is where I come down on the question of peace: regardless of whether peace was possible, one thing that is indisputable is that no peace with justice was possible."

So in this way Steven and Adams essays can coexist, because they are not actually making the same point.  Adam is arguing that peace is possible.  Steven is arguing that peace with justice is not possible. 

But Attewell also goes on to quote Ta-Nehisi Coates, who describes the enslavement of African-Americans as "perpetual existential violence". He concludes that peace without justice is not peace, regardless of whether or not Yunkai were going to honor Hizdahr's agreement and not attack Meereen. Feldman, meanwhile, considers the lack of war and attacks from the Sons, real peace, despite Yunkai reinstating slavery. In this way, I think the essays are fundamentally at odds.

 

[Dracul's Daughter]

14 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Here he actually talks about Dany and specifically says what he is doing with her character:

"what effect great power has upon a person"

"...controls what is in effect the only three nuclear weapons in the entire world"

You also seem to ignore the fact that he said he won't pretend that he has the answer.He wants us to think : "Is Dany right to destroy the Masters' "culture"?" and I would say "Yes,they have to go one way or another.".If you expect him presenting her like Hitler,like they did in the abomination show,I believe you will have a surprise.Like I said before,I think Dany is supposed to learn how to use this dragons and yes,it would be an easy temptation to make use of them at each and every turn and that's the obstacle she needs to overcome.She is supposed to find out that their real purpose is to fight the Others.Plus,she won't be able to control all three of them.She will need another two people for that.

[SeanF]

42 minutes ago, Dracul's Daughter said:

You also seem to ignore the fact that he said he won't pretend that he has the answer.He wants us to think : "Is Dany right to destroy the Masters' "culture"?" and I would say "Yes,they have to go one way or another.".If you expect him presenting her like Hitler,like they did in the abomination show,I believe you will have a surprise.Like I said before,I think Dany is supposed to learn how to use this dragons and yes,it would be an easy temptation to make use of them at each and every turn and that's the obstacle she needs to overcome.She is supposed to find out that their real purpose is to fight the Others.Plus,she won't be able to control all three of them.She will need another two people for that.

Nor will he give us a definitive answer, I think.

Like Tolkien, he gives us various perspectives on war.  There are those who see war as glorious, those who are entirely pragmatic about violence, those who see it as a necessary evil, and the pacifists.

[Rose of Red Lake]

2 hours ago, Dracul's Daughter said:

You also seem to ignore the fact that he said he won't pretend that he has the answer.He wants us to think : "Is Dany right to destroy the Masters' "culture"?" and I would say "Yes,they have to go one way or another."

I wouldn't mind debating that, but usually when people take the stance that Dany shouldn't be nuking these cities, they get accused of slavery apologism.

The wording about what effect "great power" has upon a person evokes two classic themes: 1) with great power comes great responsibility and 2) absolute power corrupting absolutely. I think as #2 becomes more prominent, #1 slides further and further away.

 I just don't see how he can maintain a choice in the destruction of cities as morally relevant at all points. There should be a limit to that because not every instance of mass murder has "two sides, both equally valid :)" 

Quote

If you expect him presenting her like Hitler,like they did in the abomination show,I believe you will have a surprise.Like I said before,I think Dany is supposed to learn how to use this dragons and yes,it would be an easy temptation to make use of them at each and every turn and that's the obstacle she needs to overcome.She is supposed to find out that their real purpose is to fight the Others.Plus,she won't be able to control all three of them.She will need another two people for that.

If the author has explicitly said dragons are an analogy for nukes, I just dont see the author looking favorably on that... He's put out statements about how they are a humanity-level threat and how that kind of power cannot reform, improve, or build. 

And as for Dany becoming Hitler; not exactly "Hitler" but the seeds are there for her to become a mix of tyrants. In every book she is motivated by dragons, punishment and winning. 

[Dracul's Daughter]

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I wouldn't mind debating that, but usually when people take the stance that Dany shouldn't be nuking these cities, they get accused of slavery apologism.

The wording about what effect "great power" has upon a person evokes two classic themes: 1) with great power comes great responsibility and 2) absolute power corrupting absolutely. I think as #2 becomes more prominent, #1 slides further and further away.

 I just don't see how he can maintain a choice in the destruction of cities as morally relevant at all points. There should be a limit to that because not every instance of mass murder has "two sides, both equally valid :)" 

If the author has explicitly said dragons are an analogy for nukes, I just dont see the author looking favorably on that... He's put out statements about how they are a humanity-level threat and how that kind of power cannot reform, improve, or build. 

And as for Dany becoming Hitler; not exactly "Hitler" but the seeds are there for her to become a mix of tyrants. In every book she is motivated by dragons, punishment and winning. 

Your statement is based mostly on assumptions.We clearly need "The Winds of Winter" to see in which situations Dany will be put and how she will respond.As for the Masters,I don't know how you can debate that: slavery HAS to end.Or are you saying it's better to continue this way?Anyway,the slaves are ready for a revolution.

Yes,dragons are used for war,not peace but you seem to forget the main theme of the novel : the pitty squabbling over a piece of metal when a higher treat is coming from the north.That's what I think it will open Dany's eyes to realise her meaning and the meaning of her "nukes": they are very useful to protect the living.Wouldn't it be stupid if she would have these three dragons to fight against the Others but she wouldn't know how??

[SeanF]

30 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I wouldn't mind debating that, but usually when people take the stance that Dany shouldn't be nuking these cities, they get accused of slavery apologism.

The wording about what effect "great power" has upon a person evokes two classic themes: 1) with great power comes great responsibility and 2) absolute power corrupting absolutely. I think as #2 becomes more prominent, #1 slides further and further away.

 I just don't see how he can maintain a choice in the destruction of cities as morally relevant at all points. There should be a limit to that because not every instance of mass murder has "two sides, both equally valid :)" 

If the author has explicitly said dragons are an analogy for nukes, I just dont see the author looking favorably on that... He's put out statements about how they are a humanity-level threat and how that kind of power cannot reform, improve, or build. 

And as for Dany becoming Hitler; not exactly "Hitler" but the seeds are there for her to become a mix of tyrants. In every book she is motivated by dragons, punishment and winning. 

Yet, Martin has repeatedly stated that WWII was worth fighting, and that he would have taken part. During the course of that war, we razed plenty of cities to the ground.  Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not even the most brutal aerial attacks in that war.

 I'm just starting a book on the War in the Pacific, where the accepted means of flushing the IJA out of underground bunkers was to pump in millions of gallons of seawater laced with oil and petrol and then set light to it.

Burning cities is not some unimaginable atrocity from a distant past.  It's what even the most liberal democracies do, when the stakes are high enough.

Why would one expect differently in the world that Martin has created?  He has after all, described it as "our world."  Sure, if Daenerys just burns cities for shit and giggles, that will be wicked.  But, if there is a military rationale for it, that's a different issue.  She would be doing what we do.

[Dracul's Daughter]

@Rose of Red Lake this is the same Martin talking about slavery,in "Fevre Dream" : "You can't just go...usin' another kind of people,like they wasn't people at all.Know what I mean?Got to end,sooner or later.Better if it ends peaceful,but it's got to end even if it has to be with fire and blood,you see?"

Also,here is some interesting quote about power from Robert A. Caro : "But although the cliche says that power always corrupts, what is seldom said ... is that power always reveals. When a man is climbing, trying to persuade others to give him power, concealment is necessary. ... But as a man obtains more power, camouflage becomes less necessary."

[Rose of Red Lake]

1 hour ago, Dracul's Daughter said:

Your statement is based mostly on assumptions.We clearly need "The Winds of Winter" to see in which situations Dany will be put and how she will respond.As for the Masters,I don't know how you can debate that: slavery HAS to end.Or are you saying it's better to continue this way?Anyway,the slaves are ready for a revolution.

Debating whether Dany's strategy can be effective for ending slavery or not, is fair game. The argument is that nuking cities is pointless because one can't improve, reform, or build with nukes. It's not "deFenDiNg sLaVErY!!" I am skeptical of 1 person riding around on a nuke, burning shit, then flying off to conquer Westeros - as capable of solving a deeply rooted societal problem. 

Quote

Yes,dragons are used for war,not peace but you seem to forget the main theme of the novel : the pitty squabbling over a piece of metal when a higher treat is coming from the north.That's what I think it will open Dany's eyes to realise her meaning and the meaning of her "nukes": they are very useful to protect the living.Wouldn't it be stupid if she would have these three dragons to fight against the Others but she wouldn't know how??

Sure, nukes can be useful in certain situations. I just dont think that "nukes are great problem solvers!!" is going to be maintained across all situations. Corruption/using power responsibly is still a theme I think he's working with.

[Dracul's Daughter]

21 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Debating whether Dany's strategy can be effective for ending slavery or not, is fair game. The argument is that nuking cities is pointless because one can't improve, reform, or build with nukes. It's not "deFenDiNg sLaVErY!!" I am skeptical of 1 person riding around on a nuke, burning shit, then flying off to conquer Westeros - as capable of solving a deeply rooted societal problem. 

Sure, nukes can be useful in certain situations. I just dont think that "nukes are great problem solvers!!" is going to be maintained across all situations. Corruption/using power responsibly is still a theme I think he's working with.

I understand your point and I agree that using "nukes" is not the response for evey problem and I never said otherwise but giving the fact that Volantis declared war and they won't give up,I don't think she has much of a choice.As I said,we'll have to wait for "The Winds of Winter" to see what Daenerys will find at her return to Meereen and how she will solve those problems.If her only solution will be "burn them all and leave" without any idea or base for a society free of slaves to exist,I will find her very shallow.

[Rose of Red Lake]

4 minutes ago, Dracul's Daughter said:

I understand your point and I agree that using "nukes" is not the response for evey problem and I never said that but giving the fact that Volantis declared war and they won't give up,I don't think she has much of a choice.As I said,we'll have to wait for "The Winds of Winter" to see what Daenerys will find at her return to Meereen and how she will solve those problems.If her only solution will be "burn them all and leave" without any idea or base for a society free of slaves to exist,I will find her very shallow.

Thanks for staying so civil - I can see your POV and I would love to see Dany trying to rebuild. I enjoyed reading about her trying to figure out how to solve problems in ADWD with her wits, instead of with her dragon-brain. I think she is very capable if she put her mind to it. However I do think the idea that "dragons plant no trees" is ominous because I think planting trees = rebuilding. 

[Dracul's Daughter]

4 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Thanks for staying so civil - I can see your POV and I would love to see Dany trying to rebuild. I enjoyed reading about her trying to figure out how to solve problems in ADWD with her wits, instead of with her dragon-brain. I think she is very capable if she put her mind to it. However I do think the idea that "dragons plant no trees" is ominous because I think planting trees = rebuilding. 

You don't have to thank me.It's always great to have a civil conversation and see other points of view.Yes,it would have been great to see her built a new society without war but I will repeat myself: I find that at least almost impossible.People don't give up their way of life just like that,without a war.Plus,Martin had to get her to Westeros.