The Meereense blot

[Dracul's Daughter]

@SeanF P:S. : could you send me the link to the thread?Thx!

[Aline de Gavrillac]

On 9/21/2020 at 10:24 PM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

A theory can be admired for the work it took and for the clarity with which it was presented, and still be wrong.  I read that essay.  It is rather long.  I do not believe the Ghiscari upper class (former slave owners) were serious about the peace.  They were waiting for Hizdahr to gain power and sure enough, they tried to assassinate Daenerys Targaryen.  Ghiscari and the Harpies wanted to do this in public by poisoning the locust.  I believe that essay even goes on to say that Barristan messed up when he arrested Hizdahr.  I do not hold it against people to spin a theory.  That is part of the past time and the entertainment outside of reading the novels.  But just because a lot of work went into it does not mean it is right.  Just look at how hard some of the fans on this forum try to smear Daenerys Targaryen and it always fails to gain much ground.  They put a lot of effort into it but then it fails.  A long, multi-page essay is not necessarily right.  If it takes that many words to build and support . . it is most likely incorrect. 

[Dracul's Daughter]

On 9/22/2020 at 4:03 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Just my take but, I think he favors non-violent resistance and peace as the default with war as a last resort to end tyrannical rule. War that enhances a warlord's standing and power to make it easy for them to make more war is not just. Nor can the hard struggle of justice be entrusted to one person riding around on a nuclear warhead. I think he will have Dany fail in order to make these points--that nukes cause more problems than they solve, that absolute power corrupts, that the struggle for justice is long and slow, and that people can be easily fooled when hope is politicized. What can look like liberation can simply be someone on a power trip.

Sorry for the late response.I see your point.Indeed power can corrupt but as far we know,Daenerys cares for her people and she is aware of how dangerous dragons are and their limitations.Don't get me wrong,I don't hope Martin will turn her in ,to paraphrase Tyrion, "Jesus the Saviour with teats" .She will definitely have struggles but I find hard to imagine her ending "drunk with power" and having to put her down like a rabid dog.We still haven't see the rest of the story and much is being speculating and to have some backup I have this quotes () :
                                       

" But a dragon could not feed a hungry child nor help a dying woman’s pain. And who would ever dare to love a dragon?"
                                                                                                                     A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys II

"Mother of dragons, Daenerys thought. Mother of monsters. What have I unleashed upon the world? A queen I am, but my throne is made of burned bones, and it rests on quicksand. Without dragons, how could she hope to hold Meereen, much less win back Westeros? I am the blood of the dragon, she thought. If they are monsters, so am I."
                            A Dance with Dragons, Chapter 11, Daenerys II.

"A queen must listen to all. The highborn and the low, the strong and the weak, the noble and the venal. One voice may speak you false, but in many there is always truth to be found."
        A Storm of Swords, Chapter 8, Daenerys I.

"Why do the gods make kings and queens, if not to protect the ones who can't protect themselves?"
                    A Storm of Swords, Chapter 27, Daenerys III.

[Hodor the Articulate]

9 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Not just the nobles, there's other people in Mereen than just Nobles and slaves, there's everyday workers, and even beggars, and their culture is Meerenese. Dany shouldn't care about the slavers (in fact I argued in the past that she should've taken all of them as hostages and give their wealth to the former slaves) but she should care about the non-slaver Meerenese, she should respect their culture and the freedmen culture, a problem that wasn't there in the Haitian revolution.

Does "Meerenese culture" mean the same thing to a poor lowborn as it does to a slaver? Other then their enjoyment of blood sports and probably their religion, we don't know. That's what I meant by story structure seemingly equating Meerenese culture with GM culture.

And as I said, the Meerenese are mostly freedmen, who are of various cultures. Some of the Meerenese practices that Dany was adopting, like wearing a tokar, would have been disrespectful to the that group.

[Dracul's Daughter]

7 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Does "Meerenese culture" mean the same thing to a poor lowborn as it does to a slaver? Other then their enjoyment of blood sports and probably their religion, we don't know. That's what I meant by story structure seemingly equating Meerenese culture with GM culture.

And as I said, the Meerenese are mostly freedmen, who are of various cultures. Some of the Meerenese practices that Dany was adopting, like wearing a tokar, would have been disrespectful to the that group.

I can't find the quote but I remember common people of Volantis not being so happy with Daenerys freeing the slaves because they were the only ones who weren't above them.Even the beggars were regarded higher.

[CamiloRP]

8 hours ago, SeanF said:

Probably, most of the free poor to comfortably off are freedmen, rather than freeborn.  A lot of "middle class" jobs (healers, singers, scribes, goldsmiths) were done by slaves.

There are some that weren't slaves, as Dany gets complaints from some workers who claim that freedmen do their jobs for much less money, so no one wants to pay them. Also Dany hears beggars dislike the ending of slavery as they used to be at least better than slaves.

 

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The only big cultural divide between Dany and free poor, and ex-slaves, that I can think of, is over the fighting pits, which everyone loves, except Dany, Barristan, and Missandei.  Fighting pits aside, there are likely a myriad different cultures, reflecting the origins of the slaves.  The religion of the Graces, for example, likely means nothing to a Dothraki or Lhazarren slave.

You are right, and the different cultures of the slaves should be respected, but there's still a portion of the population that's part of Meerenese culture and Dany isn't part of any of these cultures. She wasn't a slave and she doesn't come from any of the places the slaves come, but she isn't Meerenese either.

[CamiloRP]

26 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

And as I said, the Meerenese are mostly freedmen, who are of various cultures. Some of the Meerenese practices that Dany was adopting, like wearing a tokar, would have been disrespectful to the that group.

Absolutely. I was just arguing that the situation in Meeren was way too different to the Haitian Revolution.

[SeanF]

33 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Does "Meerenese culture" mean the same thing to a poor lowborn as it does to a slaver? Other then their enjoyment of blood sports and probably their religion, we don't know. That's what I meant by story structure seemingly equating Meerenese culture with GM culture.

And as I said, the Meerenese are mostly freedmen, who are of various cultures. Some of the Meerenese practices that Dany was adopting, like wearing a tokar, would have been disrespectful to the that group.

What is problematic about the GM culture is that so much of it revolves around symbols of subjugation (the Tokar, the Harpy, and indeed, the fighting pits).

I don't think Daenerys has any shortage of popularity among the ex-slaves, at any point. 

[Dracul's Daughter]

40 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

She wasn't a slave and she doesn't come from any of the places the slaves come, but she isn't Meerenese either.

                 "Do you know what it is like to be sold, squire? I do. My brother sold me to Khal Drogo for the promise of a golden crown. Well, Drogo crowned him in gold, though not as he had wished, and I... my sun-and-stars made a queen of me, but if he had been a different man, it might have been much otherwise. Do you think I have forgotten how it felt to be afraid?"
                                       A Storm of Swords, Chapter 23, Daenerys II

While I do agree that is not the exactly same situation,I find that the core of it is the same.That's why she sympathizes with them.

[CamiloRP]

12 minutes ago, Oana Becherescu said:

                 "Do you know what it is like to be sold, squire? I do. My brother sold me to Khal Drogo for the promise of a golden crown. Well, Drogo crowned him in gold, though not as he had wished, and I... my sun-and-stars made a queen of me, but if he had been a different man, it might have been much otherwise. Do you think I have forgotten how it felt to be afraid?"
                                       A Storm of Swords, Chapter 23, Daenerys II

While I do agree that is not the exactly same situation,I find that the core of it is the same.That's why she sympathizes with them.

She can maybe get the fear, and how it feels to be sold, but she doesn't get the experience of being a slave, she shares little of that with them and none of their culture.

[Dracul's Daughter]

7 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

She can maybe get the fear, and how it feels to be sold, but she doesn't get the experience of being a slave, she shares little of that with them and none of their culture.

Maybe Martin will expand more on this in the next book.

[Moiraine Sedai]

12 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Not just the nobles, there's other people in Mereen than just Nobles and slaves, there's everyday workers, and even beggars, and their culture is Meerenese. Dany shouldn't care about the slavers (in fact I argued in the past that she should've taken all of them as hostages and give their wealth to the former slaves) but she should care about the non-slaver Meerenese, she should respect their culture and the freedmen culture, a problem that wasn't there in the Haitian revolution.

There is a problem with that.  Even the ones who didn't own slaves supported the bloodsports.  They were involved, profiting, working, and supporting slavery.  Anybody who didn't support slavery where either slaves or just passing through.  The everyday workers are slaves. A free man asking to be paid for an honest day's work will have a difficult time finding employment. Slavery is destructive in that way.  It leaves little room for honest, compensated work. Masters are owners.  They are not employers.  The prosperity of Slaver's Bay was an illusion.  All the wealth and products of the economy go to them.  The slaves are only tools.  The culture had to go.  At least watered down and diluted.  

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Absolutely. I was just arguing that the situation in Meeren was way too different to the Haitian Revolution.

No analogy is ever precise, (especially in view of Martin's words).  What I said was that the revolt in Slavers Bay had more in common with the revolutions that broke out at the turn of the 19th century than with more modern conflicts.

The group who are seeking foreign intervention in order to reinstate their peculiar institution are the Wise Masters of Yunkai.  

[CamiloRP]

22 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

There is a problem with that.  Even the ones who didn't own slaves supported the bloodsports.  They were involved, profiting, working, and supporting slavery.  Anybody who didn't support slavery where either slaves or just passing through. 

Sure, but that doesn't mean their culture has no worth, Dany also supported slavery when she was Drogo's Khaleesi, and she suported it more than just by working in a city that has slaves.

 

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The everyday workers are slaves. A free man asking to be paid for an honest day's work will have a difficult time finding employment.

Nope, there where freemen workers, they are the ones asking Dany to do something so that the slaves don't do the same work they do for less.

 

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Slavery is destructive in that way.  It leaves little room for honest, compensated work. Masters are owners.  They are not employers.  The prosperity of Slaver's Bay was an illusion.  All the wealth and products of the economy go to them.  The slaves are only tools. 

With this I absolutely agree, I'm not arguing against Dany, I was just arguing about it being similar to the Haitian Revolution. If anything, Dany was too easy on the slavers, she should've taken all of them hostage and give their wealth to the slaves.

 

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The culture had to go.  At least watered down and diluted.  

Some part of the culture, yes, but why the religion? or the non violent traditions? And I'm not arguing that Dany should have embraced Meeren's culture more than the culture of the former slaves, I'm just saying that the Haitian Revolution didn't have that problem.

[CamiloRP]

12 minutes ago, SeanF said:

No analogy is ever precise, (especially in view of Martin's words).  What I said was that the revolt in Slavers Bay had more in common with the revolutions that broke out at the turn of the 19th century than with more modern conflicts.

The group who are seeking foreign intervention in order to reinstate their peculiar institution are the Wise Masters of Yunkai.  

I still think that the revolution coming from the slaves or from an outside agent is such a big difference to disregard it entirely. If Meeren was being ruled by slaves there would be no masters, I assure you of that.

But yes, given GRRM's words I no longer think it was purposely an Iraq parallel. 

Thanks for that <3

[SeanF]

10 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I still think that the revolution coming from the slaves or from an outside agent is such a big difference to disregard it entirely. If Meeren was being ruled by slaves there would be no masters, I assure you of that.

But yes, given GRRM's words I no longer think it was purposely an Iraq parallel. 

Thanks for that <3

I agree.  Slave revolts must be horrific for the families of the masters. although I cannot blame the slaves for that.  It's marvellous that some humans can forgive cruel wrongs, or at least ensure that those who have committed cruel wrongs receive due process, but most people will just repay cruelty in kind.

Here, I think you can see the limitations of Daenerys' thinking.  She can't (yet) envisage a world without nobles.

Re, revolts, in the case of Spanish America, there was plenty of outside intervention.

 

[CamiloRP]

26 minutes ago, SeanF said:

t's marvellous that some humans can forgive cruel wrongs, or at least ensure that those who have committed cruel wrongs receive due process, but most people will just repay cruelty in kind.

There goes far beyond that. I love comparing Chile and Argentina in this. Both countries had brutal dictatorships in the 70s as a result of the US's "plan condor". But the after dictatorships reactions from both countries varied a lot.

Argentina imprisoned most of the human rights abusers (after about 30 years tho) and started several government plans to heal the wounds done by them. Even the main dictator was given life in jail, and he died there. Because of this, the civilian defenders of the dictatorship accused the government of being violent guerrilla fighters out for revenge. 

In Chile close to nothing was done to the members of the dictatorship. Even Pinochet (their leader) was given a permanent bench in their senate. 

Because of this, Argentina is far more advanced in social rights than Chile, but Argentina's right still views Chile as a preferable out come as it was "peaceful".

 

Another great example is Mandela. The South African right wing hates him, and accuse him of being a violent criminal (which he kind of was, but it was justified as he was fighting a fraudulent government). 

But the world's right wing still recognizes Mandela as a sort of Hero, even tho he was a communist and a friend of Fidel Castro. Why? Because his results are so undeniably good that the only people who can allow themselves to criticize him are the ones who had the media brainwashing them against him before he was an undeniable hero.

 

[Riela]

59 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Argentina imprisoned most of the human rights abusers (after about 30 years tho) and started several government plans to heal the wounds done by them. Even the main dictator was given life in jail, and he died there. Because of this, the civilian defenders of the dictatorship accused the government of being violent guerrilla fighters out for revenge. 

In Chile close to nothing was done to the members of the dictatorship. Even Pinochet (their leader) was given a permanent bench in their senate. 

Because of this, Argentina is far more advanced in social rights than Chile, but Argentina's right still views Chile as a preferable out come as it was "peaceful".

Just to clarify this point; Chile's response post dictatorship wasn't 'peaceful' because the people didn't wish to get back at the ex-dictator, commander's of all branches of the military and the obviously right wing upperclass. It was because a Dictator had changed the CONSTITUTION and declared HIMSELF senator for life (eliminating any legal recourse to depose), and having the financial power afforded by right wing upperclass business owner to keep a majority of the countries middle and lower class population to ransom in a country that had almost nonexistent social security.

Also, having the financial backing and protection of US government enabled him to act with relative impunity. Chile still hasn't been able to have a full accounting of all the people murdered, tortured and 'disappeared'. 

Sorry, had to butt in there...I will carry on with my mostly quiet lurking...

[CamiloRP]

3 minutes ago, Riela said:

Just to clarify this point; Chile's response post dictatorship wasn't 'peaceful' because the people didn't wish to get back at the ex-dictator, commander's of all branches of the military and the obviously right wing upperclass. It was because a Dictator had changed the CONSTITUTION and declared HIMSELF senator for life (eliminating any legal recourse to depose), and having the financial power afforded by right wing upperclass business owner to keep a majority of the countries middle and lower class population to ransom in a country that had almost nonexistent social security.

Also, having the financial backing and protection of US government enabled him to act with relative impunity. Chile still hasn't been able to have a full accounting of all the people murdered, tortured and 'disappeared'. 

Sorry, had to butt in there...I will carry on with my mostly quiet lurking...

Yes! I hope it didn't come out as if I was blaming the chilean people bc what you said is exactly right

[Dracul's Daughter]

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Dany also supported slavery when she was Drogo's Khaleesi, and she suported it more than just by working in a city that has slaves.

I think that the moment she saw the dothrakis unleashed in Lahazareen and the way the slaves were treated in Astapor and how the Unsullied were created,she could not look away

 

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

If anything, Dany was too easy on the slavers, she should've taken all of them hostage and give their wealth to the slaves.

Hazea let a huge mark that made her lock away the dragons.I saw some people debating if it wasn't some trick to make her feel guilty.I remember that in the book were some suspicions but for her it didn't matter because she saw what her children can do.