Who Was Big Walder's Accomplice?

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

You said thtat they wanted to cheat him, not me.

 

If it was about the argument, why wouldn't BW win? He's the smartest. No, this seems to be a theme: BW is the better horseman, but LW wins at jousting bc he's bigger. BW is more fit for ruling and older, yet LW is ahead of him in the order of succession. BW is smarter, and therefore he should win a game about tricking your opponent more frequently, yet the game also involves pushing (I assume that after you say "mayhaps" you can try and take the castle, but the opponent has a right to defend it, and that's when the shoving starts) and LW is way more fit for shoving than BW, so again, BW seems to be better at the game, yet he loses.

 

Ramsay won't go on the battle, Manderlys and Freys will go. Neither Ramsay, nor Roose seriously consider Stannis winning, so he's just spending his enemies forces. Like Roose did in TWOT5K.

 

It's not that big a risk, since Ramsay has a way with people, and Ramsay has done similar things before. He went hunting with no company other than Reek in a forest where people where waring against him.

 

It seems like a ridiculous motion to have a not particularly smart kid with close to no experience beat a bunch of grown men with experience, why would GRRM write that, LW is the brute, not the brain, BW is the brain, if he had pulled this off it would make sense, but what you claim goes against logic and characterization. 

 

It has happened enough time that LW's blood has frozen. Ramsay could have cleaned himself while BW was occupied hiding the body, tho while he was hiding it he got caught by Hosteen and claimed to be uncovering it. Otherwise, why is he the only one caked with blood? Hosteen is the one carrying the corpse.

 

No need to be rude.

 

The crypts are inside Winterfell. The entrance to the crypts is inside Winterfell. It's likely the same entrance.

 

You claimed that it was a plan to have the Manderlys kill the Freys while the other northerners kill the Boltons. This plan could only make sense if the Manderlys are a part of it, so why frame themselves instead of framing an enemy?

 

It would be even better to have Stannis, Bolton and Freys kill eachother. As all are people that the members of the proposed conspiracy have no reason to like.

 

He's not weakening himself in the fight with Stannis tho, if that where the case, Roose wouldn't have sent his forces outside, everyone believes that they'll win. Also Ramsay really wants the Dreadfort, as he keeps claiming to be it's heir over and over.

 

Any army that Roose leaves him would still pale in comparison to the rest of the northerner armies, unless he has the whole army of the Dreadfort, which seems to be about as big as the other northerner armies combined. And since no one in The North likes him, they will kill him with ease.

 

Ramsay can't be sure of that. After all, it would be hard to kill anyone if he's in Winterfell and they're in the Dreadfort.

 

But Luton is a bastard boy. Bastard's boys are absolute dicks, why would he care about the fighting? why would he risk his life for people he cares little about? Also, we only hear of nine death's in the conflict: Six White Harbor men, two Freys and Luton, he's the only one who dies who wasn't a part of the conflict. Isn't that suspicious?

 

Again, no need to be rude, but also I presented a lot of evidence for this case, not only based on the actions but based on how the text is written, you are welcome to read again. If you don't find the evidence convincing then, fine by me, do as you will, but don't claim I haven't any, because that is simply not true. 

 

 

Your logic is now completely circular. LW is a dolt, he can't outsmart BW, but he wins at a silly kids game because he's a dolt and can't outsmart BW.

According to Theon I, Ramsay takes part in the battle of ice, along with his men. Yes, Ramsay has men of his own. At the fight between the Freys and Manderlys, Roose suddenly grows very concerned that his own side is killing each other, giving Stannis a tactical advantage -- which is why he sends them after Stannis now, keeping his own men with him at Winterfell, a tactical error but he has no choice now. So sorry friend, but what you are saying is simply not factual.

Ramsay does not have a way with people. Everybody loathes him, including BW. There is simply no way he is going to sign on to this plot to destroy his own kin and leave him at the mercy of this cold-blooded killer, especially since he has just seen him cold-bloodedly killing his own cousin and closest companion.

You don't need to be particularly smart to cheat at dice, particularly when your marks doesn't view you as a challenge. And since LW probably learned from Ramsay's men, he probably knows more than most all about cheating. But none of this has anything to do with the murder because, as I said, the primary suspect at this point is the Hooded Man.

What would Hosteen be doing wandering around the broken tower? Why would BW take it as his responsibility to hide the body? Why would Hosteen not immediately suspect BW as the murderer given that he's just stumbled on this scene where his is covered in blood and trying to hide the body? Sorry, but the more you try to explain this the more preposterous it sounds.

The secret entrance to the crypts is outside the castle. This is why Lady D put on that little show about looking for Ned's bones: to unblock the door to the crypt and leave a trail of footprints to cover those of whoever gained access to the castle from outside. It was right after this that the murders began and Theon encounters the Hooded Man. This is all part of a larger theory, of course, but I doubt you'd buy into it.

The plan, if there is one, would be to divide the forces loyal to the Boltons. Whether that resulted in fighting inside the castle or outside, the result is still the same: Stannis gains an advantage. So we can be pretty sure that since the spearwives did the first murders, this was done in coordination with the northern lords inside the castle. LW, though, is different, so it may or may not be part of this original plan. We'll see. Again, though, no matter how it all shakes out, Stannis benefits, so it simply makes logical sense to conclude that he is behind it rather than invent a convoluted plot based on absolutely zero evidence that Ramsay, Roose, BW and who knows who else are purposely weakening themselves at the exact time they should be preparing to fight a battle for their lives.

You keep saying that Ramsay wants the Dreadfort. I can't find that, at least not after he becomes lord of Winterfell. I'll take your word for it because it is irrelevant. Ramsay has years to undermine and/or murder Roose's other sons. But since the Dreadfort is small potatoes compared to Winterfell, this will be an afterthought. So the whole motivation for this plan is batty.

Roose is not going to go through all this trouble to put Ramsay in Winterfell and then simply abandon him to the mercy of the northern lords. And once Stannis is done they will have no one else to rally around anyway. Ramsay will be perfectly safe in Winterfell with Roose at the Dreadfort ready to march to his aid. And if things got really serious, they could bring up the Freys, both at the Twins and Riverrun, as well as the Lannisters and the full might of the Iron Throne if needed. In order to form a cogent theory it must make rational sense, and sorry but this one doesn't.

The next Bolton heir is not even born yet. Ramsay literally has years to work this out, and he could dispatch him/them just as easily as a offed Domeric.

Sorry, no, Luton's death is not suspicious at all. The Dreadfort men are breaking up the fight because Roose and Ramsay are calling for an end to it. Luton got gutted in the fight. It happens.

What evidence? Where is the evidence that LW is a moron. He is a cruel, crafty acolyte of Ramsay. BW is the one who doesn't trust Ramsay, nor is there any reason why he should if he has just witnessed him killing his cousin. Also, no evidence that the story about dicing with Manderlys is a lie. No evidence that Luton was involved in any of this. No evidence that Ramsay went off to clean himself up leaving BW to hide the body. No evidence that Hosteen just happened by in this remote, deserted part of the castle and then doesn't suspect for one moment that the boy covered with blood and hiding the body is guilty of the murder. No evidence that Ramsay is even thinking of lining up his forces to take the Dreadfort, and no rational reason as to why he should. Sorry, but I don't see any evidence for any of this, just a lot of willful disregard for the abundance of evidence that disproves this.

 

 

[CamiloRP]

19 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Your logic is now completely circular. LW is a dolt, he can't outsmart BW, but he wins at a silly kids game because he's a dolt and can't outsmart BW.

Nope, that's not my logic. The text presents BW as the smart one and tho not explicitly said, LW is presented as the brute and kinda dumb. What I said is that him winning the game doesn't require him to be smart, as the game seems to be decided based on pushing, and he's much larger and stronger than BW, same reason why he wins at jousting despite being a worse horseman, and it's thematically similar to him being higher in the order of succession than BW, despite him being smarter and older, it's one of the first things BW says in the story. 

 

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According to Theon I, Ramsay takes part in the battle of ice, along with his men.

Except Ramsay only joins the battle because "he wants his bride back, he wants his Reek."  He wouldn't have gone if they hadn't escaped, so that's not a part of his original plan (if what I say is true) he forced Roose into sendings the Freys and Manderlys out, but then discovered Theon and Jeyne where missing and went out himself to find them, he couldn't have known they would escape.

 

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Yes, Ramsay has men of his own.

But Roose is still the one choosing who goes out. Ramsay has little men, only some bastard's boys and the likely treacherous Hornwoods.

 

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Ramsay does not have a way with people. Everybody loathes him, including BW. There is simply no way he is going to sign on to this plot to destroy his own kin and leave him at the mercy of this cold-blooded killer, especially since he has just seen him cold-bloodedly killing his own cousin and closest companion.

It was a joke, I was talking about him threatening people into doing his bidding, like he did with Theon in Moat Cailin. 

We've seen BW react to Frey death with complete disinterest (with Stevron and the White Harbor Freys) and the Freys are said to "only trust full blooded siblings, and them not very much". So he'll likely care little about LW's death, he might even be slightly happy about moving up the order of succession. He also spent a lot of time with Ramsay, and knows what he's capable of, he knows what he did to Theon, and likely knows he hunts and raped women for sport, he should b terrified of him, so if Ramsay would threaten him he would likely piss his pants and do what he asks of him, specially if he just saw him butcher his cousin.

 

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You don't need to be particularly smart to cheat at dice, particularly when your marks doesn't view you as a challenge. And since LW probably learned from Ramsay's men, he probably knows more than most all about cheating.

You need to be particularly smart to cheat at anything if you are a little boy playing against men, specially if those men are trying to cheat you themselves. And again, even if possible, would go against LW's characterization, he's not cunning, he's never represented in that way, and why would GRRM subtextually include a scene that requires for a character to do something against his characterization when he has right next to him a character who would absolutely do that (BW).

 

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But none of this has anything to do with the murder because, as I said, the primary suspect at this point is the Hooded Man.

Why would he be the prime suspect? we know absolutely nothing of him!

 

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What would Hosteen be doing wandering around the broken tower?

Why wouldn't he? He might have seen BW from afar or he might have been looking for his nephew, or maybe someone else found BW hiding LW so he had to pretend.

 

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Why would BW take it as his responsibility to hide the body?

Ramsay made him.

 

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Why would Hosteen not immediately suspect BW as the murderer given that he's just stumbled on this scene where his is covered in blood and trying to hide the body?

Hosteen is not very clever, but the scen you describe is likely what happened even if Ramsay ddin't kill LW. BW find the corpse, and is covered in blood, yet you don't suspect him, why would Hosteen?

 

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The secret entrance to the crypts is outside the castle. This is why Lady D put on that little show about looking for Ned's bones: to unblock the door to the crypt and leave a trail of footprints to cover those of whoever gained access to the castle from outside. It was right after this that the murders began and Theon encounters the Hooded Man. This is all part of a larger theory, of course, but I doubt you'd buy into it.

This is a whole bunch of assumption. The wiki says:

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Layout

The crypt's ironwood door, which is located in the oldest section of Winterfell near the First Keep^[4] and the lichyard,^[5] is old and heavy.^[6] The chilly and dark crypt is accessible by narrow and winding spiral stone steps which lead to multiple levels. One floor contains a long line of granite pillars, two by two, between which are entombed the dead of House Stark. It has a vaulted ceiling.^[1]

So there's only one door that we know off. Also, BD wasn't looking for Ned's bones in the crypts, she knows they aren't there, in my opinion she was either looking to visit Brandon or searching for proof of Manderly's story about Rickon hiding in the crypts (she notes the missing swords).

Also, she wouldn't need a hidden pass to have someone inside the castle, as we see twice with Mance, she could've just brought anyone with her as a musician or whatever.

Also, while I buy a lot of the GNC I do belive BD's dislike of the Starks and Roose does seem to trust her in a big way, so I don't think she's a part of it.

 

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The plan, if there is one, would be to divide the forces loyal to the Boltons. Whether that resulted in fighting inside the castle or outside, the result is still the same: Stannis gains an advantage. So we can be pretty sure that since the spearwives did the first murders, this was done in coordination with the northern lords inside the castle. LW, though, is different, so it may or may not be part of this original plan. We'll see. Again, though, no matter how it all shakes out, Stannis benefits, so it simply makes logical sense to conclude that he is behind it

If the northerners are killing the Boltons and Freys by themselves, what do they need Stannis for? They have no reason to like him, it would make much more sense for the northern lords to kill say, Walda, and fram Ramsay for it, have the Boltons, the Freys and Stannis killed themselves while they are safe inside WF. How is framing yourself a good plan? Also, it wouldn't have required all this planning, the Manderlys could have just started a fight against the Freys and be both sent out, there's no need for all the scheming and the Manderlys would be in a better position since they lost three times as many men as the Freys in the fight of the Great Hall, which points at them not being prepared.

 

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rather than invent a convoluted plot based on absolutely zero evidence that Ramsay, Roose, BW and who knows who else are purposely weakening themselves at the exact time they should be preparing to fight a battle for their lives.

Roose's hand is forced, after what happened in the Great Hall he has no choice but to send the Freys and the Manderlys outside, and that's what he does, yet he fully expects to win, as Stannis has a small army that's probably starved and half frozen, he's weakening himself because he's spending the Frey force, which are his biggest allies in The North. Ramsay tho, is not weakening himself, as neither the Manderlys nor the Freys are his allies, and he too is quite sure of his victory. But even if Stannis wins, his army would be thoroughly spent, so Roose would then send the other armies (but not the Boltons) to finish him of, like he did in TWOT5K, shrinking his possible enemies's army, and making himself more powerful. 

If his hand wasn't forced, Roose would've never sent the Freys, as they're the most loyal to him in the whole North.

 

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You keep saying that Ramsay wants the Dreadfort. I can't find that, at least not after he becomes lord of Winterfell. I'll take your word for it because it is irrelevant. Ramsay has years to undermine and/or murder Roose's other sons. But since the Dreadfort is small potatoes compared to Winterfell, this will be an afterthought. So the whole motivation for this plan is batty.

Ramsay claims to be the heir of the Dreadfort in his wedding, while he's getting WF and already has the Hornwood lands.

Ramsay doesn't have years to do any of those things, as as soon as the war is over, Roose will go back to the Dreadfort and Ramsay will stay in WF.

Also, Ramsay seems to not want WF, he burns it and then complains about getting a ruin, and tho it represents more power than the Dreadfort, the Dreadfort represents him not being a bastard (a thing he really cares about), is a more secure title (as Sansa, Rickon and Bran are still alive, and Ramsay knows it) and has a more powerful army.

 

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Roose is not going to go through all this trouble to put Ramsay in Winterfell and then simply abandon him to the mercy of the northern lords. And once Stannis is done they will have no one else to rally around anyway. Ramsay will be perfectly safe in Winterfell with Roose at the Dreadfort ready to march to his aid. And if things got really serious, they could bring up the Freys, both at the Twins and Riverrun, as well as the Lannisters and the full might of the Iron Throne if needed. In order to form a cogent theory it must make rational sense, and sorry but this one doesn't.

That's not what I claimed. When Roose dies, Ramsay looses all allies, the whole North hates him, including the Dustins and the Risewells, who seem to be big Bolton supporters, and Walda's children have no reason to back him, so Ramsay would be alone against The North holding a title that he has little claim to and grants him a tiny army. The North has people to rally around: Bran, Rickon and maybe even Sansa or Jon, but they don't need to, as Ramsay's position as LOWF would have less precedent that almost any northern lord, as he's a bolton and a bastard, the Karstarks would be a better choice than Ramsay, or the Rysewells or Dustins, that were likely the KITN before the Starks, or the Umbers, Mormonts or just about any other house that's not led by a bastard (except for the Manderlys, as they follow the Seven) and it's likely that House Bolton is the northern house with the least Stark blood, if they have any. 

So after Roose dies Ramsay's lordship would be easy to take and the other lords have every reason to do so, if not for his blood and legitimacy, for how much of a monster he is and how everyone hates him.

 

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Sorry, no, Luton's death is not suspicious at all. The Dreadfort men are breaking up the fight because Roose and Ramsay are calling for an end to it. Luton got gutted in the fight. It happens.

It is suspicious tho, he's the only non Manderly, non Frey to die. Dreadfort men where breaking up the fight because Roose was calling for an end to it, Ramsay wasn't, and Luton is Ramsay's man, and Baastard's boy, meaning he's likely an asshole with no care for human life, so why would he risk his life by trying to stop people he cares not for?

 

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What evidence? Where is the evidence that LW is a moron. He is a cruel, crafty acolyte of Ramsay. BW is the one who doesn't trust Ramsay, nor is there any reason why he should if he has just witnessed him killing his cousin.

This I have explained in this very comment.

 

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Also, no evidence that the story about dicing with Manderlys is a lie.

This I have explained in this thread, but here it goes again: there's no reason for the Manderlys and the Freys to be hanging out after the red wedding (your example was before the red wedding). It's unlikely that a nine year old boy who's not particularly smart would win in a game against several grown men, the hesitation before the second line makes it sound suspicious, as if he's lying. If he believed the Manderlys to be the culprits, why would he doubt about accusing them? 

 

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No evidence that Luton was involved in any of this.

Apart from the stuff I already said the line "Lord Ramsay silenced him" points to it, as GRRM loves to put lines in the books with more than one meaning.

 

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No evidence that Ramsay went off to clean himself up leaving BW to hide the body.

Unless the culprit is BW, whoever killed LW cleaned himself up, as the boy was butchered and no one else is caked in blood. Also Ramsay had enough time to clean himself up, as the LW lay dead for enough time that his blood froze.

 

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No evidence that Hosteen just happened by in this remote, deserted part of the castle and then doesn't suspect for one moment that the boy covered with blood and hiding the body is guilty of the murder.

You don't need evidence for him being in a part of the castle. It's like claiming the Hooded Man couldn't have done it because you have no evidence of him being near the tower, it makes no sense.

Also, wether BW was involved or not, he seems to have uncovered LW and then, caked in blood he went to Hosteen to report on it, so it's the same situation, and if Hosteen doesn't suspect BW in one scenario, he shouldn't suspect him in the other. 

 

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No evidence that Ramsay is even thinking of lining up his forces to take the Dreadfort, and no rational reason as to why he should. 

I gave ample evidence and reason for both.

Ramsay's claim for the Dreadfort is stronger than his claim for Winterfell, since he's a bastard and has likely no Stark blood while Sansa, Bran, Rickon and even Jon are still alive, also a lot of the other houses have more stark blood than him, specially the Karstarks. The Boltons also have no history of ruling the North, while either the Rysewells or the Dustins (or both) probably do, and everyone in The North hates him and no one wants him as lord.

The Dreadfort forces likely have a chance against the rest of The North, but when you add the Freys it's harder for him to keep ruling. But it's even harder if he doesn't have the full Dreadfort forces, and he won't, as he'll be ruling from WF, and while Roose will likely give him forces, he won't give him all his forces.

He also has an emotional reason to want the Dreadfort and seems to think little of WF.

 

And there's extra evidence, including the fact that Ramsay seems to threaten BW before he speaks, the fact that Ramsay and Roose are arguing while Walda looks scared, but later she doesn't react about her brother being dead, only to react when the fight starts, she doesn't react about her brother dying but she shrieks about Wyman Manderly being attacked? Also, Roose seems to be faking concern, as he speaks in an uncharacteristic matter.

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Nope, that's not my logic. The text presents BW as the smart one and tho not explicitly said, LW is presented as the brute and kinda dumb. What I said is that him winning the game doesn't require him to be smart, as the game seems to be decided based on pushing, and he's much larger and stronger than BW, same reason why he wins at jousting despite being a worse horseman, and it's thematically similar to him being higher in the order of succession than BW, despite him being smarter and older, it's one of the first things BW says in the story. 

 

Except Ramsay only joins the battle because "he wants his bride back, he wants his Reek."  He wouldn't have gone if they hadn't escaped, so that's not a part of his original plan (if what I say is true) he forced Roose into sendings the Freys and Manderlys out, but then discovered Theon and Jeyne where missing and went out himself to find them, he couldn't have known they would escape.

 

But Roose is still the one choosing who goes out. Ramsay has little men, only some bastard's boys and the likely treacherous Hornwoods.

 

It was a joke, I was talking about him threatening people into doing his bidding, like he did with Theon in Moat Cailin. 

We've seen BW react to Frey death with complete disinterest (with Stevron and the White Harbor Freys) and the Freys are said to "only trust full blooded siblings, and them not very much". So he'll likely care little about LW's death, he might even be slightly happy about moving up the order of succession. He also spent a lot of time with Ramsay, and knows what he's capable of, he knows what he did to Theon, and likely knows he hunts and raped women for sport, he should b terrified of him, so if Ramsay would threaten him he would likely piss his pants and do what he asks of him, specially if he just saw him butcher his cousin.

 

You need to be particularly smart to cheat at anything if you are a little boy playing against men, specially if those men are trying to cheat you themselves. And again, even if possible, would go against LW's characterization, he's not cunning, he's never represented in that way, and why would GRRM subtextually include a scene that requires for a character to do something against his characterization when he has right next to him a character who would absolutely do that (BW).

 

Why would he be the prime suspect? we know absolutely nothing of him!

 

Why wouldn't he? He might have seen BW from afar or he might have been looking for his nephew, or maybe someone else found BW hiding LW so he had to pretend.

 

Ramsay made him.

 

Hosteen is not very clever, but the scen you describe is likely what happened even if Ramsay ddin't kill LW. BW find the corpse, and is covered in blood, yet you don't suspect him, why would Hosteen?

 

This is a whole bunch of assumption. The wiki says:

So there's only one door that we know off. Also, BD wasn't looking for Ned's bones in the crypts, she knows they aren't there, in my opinion she was either looking to visit Brandon or searching for proof of Manderly's story about Rickon hiding in the crypts (she notes the missing swords).

Also, she wouldn't need a hidden pass to have someone inside the castle, as we see twice with Mance, she could've just brought anyone with her as a musician or whatever.

Also, while I buy a lot of the GNC I do belive BD's dislike of the Starks and Roose does seem to trust her in a big way, so I don't think she's a part of it.

 

If the northerners are killing the Boltons and Freys by themselves, what do they need Stannis for? They have no reason to like him, it would make much more sense for the northern lords to kill say, Walda, and fram Ramsay for it, have the Boltons, the Freys and Stannis killed themselves while they are safe inside WF. How is framing yourself a good plan? Also, it wouldn't have required all this planning, the Manderlys could have just started a fight against the Freys and be both sent out, there's no need for all the scheming and the Manderlys would be in a better position since they lost three times as many men as the Freys in the fight of the Great Hall, which points at them not being prepared.

 

Roose's hand is forced, after what happened in the Great Hall he has no choice but to send the Freys and the Manderlys outside, and that's what he does, yet he fully expects to win, as Stannis has a small army that's probably starved and half frozen, he's weakening himself because he's spending the Frey force, which are his biggest allies in The North. Ramsay tho, is not weakening himself, as neither the Manderlys nor the Freys are his allies, and he too is quite sure of his victory. But even if Stannis wins, his army would be thoroughly spent, so Roose would then send the other armies (but not the Boltons) to finish him of, like he did in TWOT5K, shrinking his possible enemies's army, and making himself more powerful. 

If his hand wasn't forced, Roose would've never sent the Freys, as they're the most loyal to him in the whole North.

 

Ramsay claims to be the heir of the Dreadfort in his wedding, while he's getting WF and already has the Hornwood lands.

Ramsay doesn't have years to do any of those things, as as soon as the war is over, Roose will go back to the Dreadfort and Ramsay will stay in WF.

Also, Ramsay seems to not want WF, he burns it and then complains about getting a ruin, and tho it represents more power than the Dreadfort, the Dreadfort represents him not being a bastard (a thing he really cares about), is a more secure title (as Sansa, Rickon and Bran are still alive, and Ramsay knows it) and has a more powerful army.

 

That's not what I claimed. When Roose dies, Ramsay looses all allies, the whole North hates him, including the Dustins and the Risewells, who seem to be big Bolton supporters, and Walda's children have no reason to back him, so Ramsay would be alone against The North holding a title that he has little claim to and grants him a tiny army. The North has people to rally around: Bran, Rickon and maybe even Sansa or Jon, but they don't need to, as Ramsay's position as LOWF would have less precedent that almost any northern lord, as he's a bolton and a bastard, the Karstarks would be a better choice than Ramsay, or the Rysewells or Dustins, that were likely the KITN before the Starks, or the Umbers, Mormonts or just about any other house that's not led by a bastard (except for the Manderlys, as they follow the Seven) and it's likely that House Bolton is the northern house with the least Stark blood, if they have any. 

So after Roose dies Ramsay's lordship would be easy to take and the other lords have every reason to do so, if not for his blood and legitimacy, for how much of a monster he is and how everyone hates him.

 

It is suspicious tho, he's the only non Manderly, non Frey to die. Dreadfort men where breaking up the fight because Roose was calling for an end to it, Ramsay wasn't, and Luton is Ramsay's man, and Baastard's boy, meaning he's likely an asshole with no care for human life, so why would he risk his life by trying to stop people he cares not for?

 

This I have explained in this very comment.

 

This I have explained in this thread, but here it goes again: there's no reason for the Manderlys and the Freys to be hanging out after the red wedding (your example was before the red wedding). It's unlikely that a nine year old boy who's not particularly smart would win in a game against several grown men, the hesitation before the second line makes it sound suspicious, as if he's lying. If he believed the Manderlys to be the culprits, why would he doubt about accusing them? 

 

Apart from the stuff I already said the line "Lord Ramsay silenced him" points to it, as GRRM loves to put lines in the books with more than one meaning.

 

Unless the culprit is BW, whoever killed LW cleaned himself up, as the boy was butchered and no one else is caked in blood. Also Ramsay had enough time to clean himself up, as the LW lay dead for enough time that his blood froze.

 

You don't need evidence for him being in a part of the castle. It's like claiming the Hooded Man couldn't have done it because you have no evidence of him being near the tower, it makes no sense.

Also, wether BW was involved or not, he seems to have uncovered LW and then, caked in blood he went to Hosteen to report on it, so it's the same situation, and if Hosteen doesn't suspect BW in one scenario, he shouldn't suspect him in the other. 

 

I gave ample evidence and reason for both.

Ramsay's claim for the Dreadfort is stronger than his claim for Winterfell, since he's a bastard and has likely no Stark blood while Sansa, Bran, Rickon and even Jon are still alive, also a lot of the other houses have more stark blood than him, specially the Karstarks. The Boltons also have no history of ruling the North, while either the Rysewells or the Dustins (or both) probably do, and everyone in The North hates him and no one wants him as lord.

The Dreadfort forces likely have a chance against the rest of The North, but when you add the Freys it's harder for him to keep ruling. But it's even harder if he doesn't have the full Dreadfort forces, and he won't, as he'll be ruling from WF, and while Roose will likely give him forces, he won't give him all his forces.

He also has an emotional reason to want the Dreadfort and seems to think little of WF.

 

And there's extra evidence, including the fact that Ramsay seems to threaten BW before he speaks, the fact that Ramsay and Roose are arguing while Walda looks scared, but later she doesn't react about her brother being dead, only to react when the fight starts, she doesn't react about her brother dying but she shrieks about Wyman Manderly being attacked? Also, Roose seems to be faking concern, as he speaks in an uncharacteristic matter.

Well, we're just circling now. I'll just post all of this in the DOA file and bid you a fond adieu. Happy Reading.

[CamiloRP]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Well, we're just circling now. I'll just post all of this in the DOA file and bid you a fond adieu. Happy Reading.

nice talking to you! also whats the DOA file?

[John Suburbs]

20 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

nice talking to you! also whats the DOA file?

Lol, Dead on Arrival

[CamiloRP]

Hi @John Suburbs, not to be annoying, but I'm reading The Winterfell Huis Clos for the first time and there's a whole chapter on this theory, it brings up many of my points and then some more, I thought it may interest you.

http://branvras.free.fr/HuisClos/Murder.html