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Alyn Oakenfist

How come Rhaegar stationing 3 Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy didn't tip anybody off?

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So the fact that there was a duel at the tower of Joy and that the 3 Kingsguard died then seems to be common knowledge. And yet nobody question why there were 3 of them there. The Kingsguard is supposed to protect the King and his family. Add in the fact that they fought to the death put 2 and 2 together and you get pregnancy. So how come nobody in Westeros noticed this huge hint for R+L=J?

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I guess the common narrative is they were Lyanna’s (overqualified) jailers. Unless you believe Rhaegar was married to Lyanna (and this was allowed and deemed valid) the baby at the ToJ was an unrecognised bastard of the Crown Prince, not exactly a common protectee for the KG, so I doubt a baby is that evident. 

I agree though there should perhaps have been speculation in this regard from the likes of Jaime, Barristan, Varys and perhaps, though less so, in the Robert-side of the Rebellion.  

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(What is commonly known in universe and what we readers known is so vastly different as to make this question pointless.)

The only thing that is commonly known is that 3 KG died and Ned returned the sword. Nothing else. Not where they died and barely how they died.

1) We don't know their White Book entries (probably scarce).

2) We don't know what Barristan thinks or what he knows about where and when they died. (see #1)

3) We don't know what Jaime thinks or what he knows about where and when they died. (see #1)

4) Whatever reason Rhaegar gave to the rest of the KG between his return and the Trident must have been sufficient to deflect inquiry.

At the time, as far as we know, in world, the two people alive that know the phrase 'tower of joy' were Ned and Howland Reed. Who are they going to mention it to?

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The Kingsguard can be tasked with anything. Balon Swan was sent to Dorne to escort a head, Jaime was sent to end war in the Riverlands, Loras is sent to take Dragonstone. So if Rhaegar would ask the KG to protect his basterd, they would do it, if he'd ask them to protect a random person he found in Fleabottom, they'd do it, and if he asked them to keep watch of a prisoner, they'd do it.

What I find weird tho, it why did the KG fought against Ned. I mean, what was that fight about? To me this indicates that they didn't want to protect Lyanna and the possible baby, as that would obviously be the same thing Ned wanted, and even them fighting is not the best way of protecting them, they could've fled. And why didn't them use the tower in the fight? they're three of the best swordsmen in the realm, if they could use the tower's advantage is likely that they would have won.

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25 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

The Kingsguard can be tasked with anything. Balon Swan was sent to Dorne to escort a head, Jaime was sent to end war in the Riverlands, Loras is sent to take Dragonstone. So if Rhaegar would ask the KG to protect his basterd, they would do it, if he'd ask them to protect a random person he found in Fleabottom, they'd do it, and if he asked them to keep watch of a prisoner, they'd do it.

What I find weird tho, it why did the KG fought against Ned. I mean, what was that fight about? To me this indicates that they didn't want to protect Lyanna and the possible baby, as that would obviously be the same thing Ned wanted, and even them fighting is not the best way of protecting them, they could've fled. And why didn't them use the tower in the fight? they're three of the best swordsmen in the realm, if they could use the tower's advantage is likely that they would have won.

That’s inaccurate. Yes, the KG can receive all sorts of commands, so long as these commands are issued by the king. The king can tell a KG to obey the crown prince, I suppose, or a KG can decide to follow a command from someone else, like the crown prince. But that’s not kosher as far as what are their sworn duties.
Mind you, I have no problem whatsoever w/ a KG (or anyone, for that matter) deciding they are not going to blindly follow orders from a nutjob of a king. 

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the reason question is why he didn't leave them with Princess Elia and his children who WERE IN THE HANDS OF FUCKING AERYS who was an INSANE MAD MAN WHO COULD'VE KILLED ALL OF THEM.

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3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

That’s inaccurate. Yes, the KG can receive all sorts of commands, so long as these commands are issued by the king. The king can tell a KG to obey the crown prince, I suppose, or a KG can decide to follow a command from someone else, like the crown prince. But that’s not kosher as far as what are their sworn duties.
Mind you, I have no problem whatsoever w/ a KG (or anyone, for that matter) deciding they are not going to blindly follow orders from a nutjob of a king. 

I mean, if the KG were with Rhaegar and not with Aerys (which makes sense, unless Rhaegar took Lyanna to KL or kept her somewhere and went back to KL to ask for the KG to go with her) then I'd assume everything Rhaegar would ask of them would be a command (unless it contradicted the orders of the king).

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A youtuber I watch who isn't normally a whacko seems to think that the Kingsguard at the TOJ did a reverse suicide by cop honor death thing.  It doesn't make much sense with Ned and his gang essentially on the same side.   Could be Rhaegar told them specifically to kill anyone who came around or any number of things.  It's not like Rhaegar didn't know the Starks were gunning for him because he absolutely could have used his Kingsguard's support during the war raging.  Maybe my youtuber isn't far off in thinking there is some honor/duty directive involved here.  Ned is the only person I've seen give a sword back after a guy is dead.   Unwin grabbed his sword up and there are plenty of examples of VS swords being taken from corpses.  The Daynes like Ned.   Revere Ned even.   It doesn't add up or make a lot of sense.  I just try to keep myself in check because this is a maddening subject, by understanding everything I know about the TOJ came from a very sick man's fever dream.   The story just isn't right, complete, exact or understandable.  

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1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So the fact that there was a duel at the tower of Joy and that the 3 Kingsguard died then seems to be common knowledge.

It does?

Based on what?

I don't think its common knowledge at all. 
I think its well known that Ned went to Starfall to return Dawn, and most of his comrades he was last seen with died. That implies he fought and killed Arthur Dayne. I don't think that is widely known as fact though.
I don't think anyone, hardly, knows about the ToJ fight. Just that Ned rode south with some friends, somewhere along the way encountered Dayne, probably in the same encounter lost a bunch of friends, then turned up at Starfall with Dawn and gave it back to the Daynes.
the Worldbook claims that Arthur Dayne "died nobly with his sworn brothers at the end of Robert's Rebellion, after Lord Eddard Stark was said to have killed him in single combat" but that reads more like a bit of quiet investigation by a Maester who got limited information out of Ned than 'widely known facts'.
Assumptions follow from those datapoints, but I don't see any evidence that more is known.

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

And yet nobody question why there were 3 of them there.

Becasue most people don;t know they were even together, let alone where, doing what.

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

The Kingsguard is supposed to protect the King and his family.

The KG does a bunch of other tasks too - for example after BotBells Darry and Barristan were sent to the west to rally and reform the survivors and Hightower sent to get Rhaegar back.

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Add in the fact that they fought to the death

Why wouldn't they, vs the rebels.
Barristan only 'turned because he was badly wounded and unable to fight and by the time he recovered it was all over. 

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

put 2 and 2 together and you get pregnancy. 

How do you get a pregnancy out of a bunch of KG and rebels? There's no woman mentioned anywhere.
I know what you are saying.
The point is, nobody except Ned and HR have the 2 and the 2. Mst people have a 7 and an X. A few might have a 3 and a Y, even fewer maybe a 2 and a Z. 

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So how come nobody in Westeros noticed this huge hint for R+L=J?

The haven't read the book and seen inside Ned's head.

23 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

The Kingsguard can be tasked with anything. Balon Swan was sent to Dorne to escort a head, Jaime was sent to end war in the Riverlands, Loras is sent to take Dragonstone. So if Rhaegar would ask the KG to protect his basterd, they would do it, if he'd ask them to protect a random person he found in Fleabottom, they'd do it, and if he asked them to keep watch of a prisoner, they'd do it.

Yep. There's even a SSM about that.
Though there are indications that they may only accept 'other' tasks when the King is still actually under their protection (ie a fellow KG is still stationed with him. Or something similar.
See the formal start to the KG meeting Jaime convenes. 

23 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

What I find weird tho, it why did the KG fought against Ned.

Why wouldn't they? He's a rebel general whose just come from the Sack of KL and the murder of Targaryen babies.

23 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I mean, what was that fight about? To me this indicates that they didn't want to protect Lyanna and the possible baby, as that would obviously be the same thing Ned wanted, and even them fighting is not the best way of protecting them, they could've fled.

You know Ned, you've been inside his head, you've seen the love he has for Lyanna, you've witnessed some of what raising Jon cost him.
They haven't.
From their perspective Ned is a more or less unknown quantity (he was a shy 20 something second son nobody from the far north a year ago) who has just participated in the wholesale murder of the entire Targaryen family even down to babies.
Maybe Lyanna being his sister and her child his nephew means something. Maybe his friendship with Robert and the deeds he is associated with have stained his soul. Who knows for sure?
If you are the KG, are you gonna take that risk? Give your charges over to the man who murdered (by proxy, and he was there) Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon?

And that doesn't even address the different further goals that might have even if they both want to save Lyanna and the baby,
Ned hid the child as a bastard and had no intention of allowing the child his birthright. Thats what he actually did. Do you think that is compatible with the KG protecting not just the child's life, but its heritage and birthright as well? 

23 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

And why didn't them use the tower in the fight? they're three of the best swordsmen in the realm, if they could use the tower's advantage is likely that they would have won.

Thats a no-win situation for them. 
If they retreat into the tower then they invite Ned to siege them out. They have no prospect for support, and Ned's support is clearly almost limitless (they know the rebels have won) and who knows how close.
Their best hope is to kill Ned and all his companions, thus perhaps buying them enough time to escape before more support comes.

4 minutes ago, GoldenGail3 said:

the reason question is why he didn't leave them with Princess Elia and his children who WERE IN THE HANDS OF FUCKING AERYS who was an INSANE MAD MAN WHO COULD'VE KILLED ALL OF THEM.

Didn't you just answer your own question?
Rhaegar didn't leave Elia and his children with Aerys. He left them at Dragonstone, well protected (when he first left on his trip, at the start of the year). But Aerys ordered them to KL and they had no choice but to obey.

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4 minutes ago, corbon said:

Didn't you just answer your own question?
Rhaegar didn't leave Elia and his children with Aerys. He left them at Dragonstone, well protected (when he first left on his trip, at the start of the year). But Aerys ordered them to KL and they had no choice but to obey.

He came back to King's Landing in time for the Trident though. He knew they were there and did nothing about it. 

Edited by GoldenGail3

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2 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I mean, if the KG were with Rhaegar and not with Aerys (which makes sense, unless Rhaegar took Lyanna to KL or kept her somewhere and went back to KL to ask for the KG to go with her) then I'd assume everything Rhaegar would ask of them would be a command (unless it contradicted the orders of the king).

All that was going on at the time I would not be surprised to learn the KG were split in their loyalties.   Can't imagine anyone getting behind Aerys that last bit of his reign.   Total nut job. 

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2 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

A youtuber I watch who isn't normally a whacko seems to think that the Kingsguard at the TOJ did a reverse suicide by cop honor death thing.  It doesn't make much sense with Ned and his gang essentially on the same side.   Could be Rhaegar told them specifically to kill anyone who came around or any number of things.  It's not like Rhaegar didn't know the Starks were gunning for him because he absolutely could have used his Kingsguard's support during the war raging.  Maybe my youtuber isn't far off in thinking there is some honor/duty directive involved here.  Ned is the only person I've seen give a sword back after a guy is dead.   Unwin grabbed his sword up and there are plenty of examples of VS swords being taken from corpses.  The Daynes like Ned.   Revere Ned even.   It doesn't add up or make a lot of sense.  I just try to keep myself in check because this is a maddening subject, by understanding everything I know about the TOJ came from a very sick man's fever dream.   The story just isn't right, complete, exact or understandable.  

100% and most of it comes from fever dreams, so it makes it way harder. The TOJ is so fucking confusing to me I'd give more creedence to Varys being a merman than I would most TOJ theories.

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2 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

100% and most of it comes from fever dreams, so it makes it way harder. The TOJ is so fucking confusing to me I'd give more creedence to Varys being a merman than I would most TOJ theories.

Just don't go the distance with that suicide honor thing.   That's just weird.   It's OK, Man, we are supposed to be confused.   Good Job.  

Edited by Curled Finger
spelling

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3 minutes ago, GoldenGail3 said:

He came back to King's Landing in time for the Trident though. He knew they were there and did nothing about it. 

What exactly can he do? The King is still the King. Kings orders are Kings orders.

What he can do is go off and win the war. Then it will all be fine. In fact, then he may even have enough soft power to do something about Aerys. But with the rebellion ongoing, he can't afford to move against Aerys and further split the Loyalist ranks. 

 

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Just now, corbon said:

What exactly can he do? The King is still the King. Kings orders are Kings orders.

What he can do is go off and win the war. Then it will all be fine. In fact, then he may even have enough soft power to do something about Aerys. But with the rebellion ongoing, he can't afford to move against Aerys and further split the Loyalist ranks. 

 

I dunno.. maybe bring back those three king's guard to protect Elia and his children, maybe.

Aerys loves wildfire so much he'd bathe in it according to Jaime. What are the chances of him blowing himself up with them? High, very high.

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13 minutes ago, GoldenGail3 said:

the reason question is why he didn't leave them with Princess Elia and his children who WERE IN THE HANDS OF FUCKING AERYS who was an INSANE MAD MAN WHO COULD'VE KILLED ALL OF THEM.

If you listen to the World Book (or read with your eyes) you can really pick up on the political vibrations at the time of the Tourney at Harrenhal.   I think it was less than 2 years from the tourney to the disastrous end of Targaryen reign.  Aery's suffered an insidious madness and Rhaegar knew he needed to deal with dear old Dad.  Harrenhal was Rhaegar's initial attempt at gauging what support he might have if he attempted to depose the king.  I don't think he could have actually anticipated that his family would be killed in the Red Keep.  What safer place in Westeros is there?   Are we even certain Rhaegar knew where the family was?  

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11 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I mean, if the KG were with Rhaegar and not with Aerys (which makes sense, unless Rhaegar took Lyanna to KL or kept her somewhere and went back to KL to ask for the KG to go with her) then I'd assume everything Rhaegar would ask of them would be a command (unless it contradicted the orders of the king).

Yes, but the point is, it’s not Rhaegar’s place to order the KG around. He is only the crown prince, not the king. Like I said, Aerys can tell the KG, “obey my son Rhaegar no matter what”, and that would be different b/c they’d still be doing what the king told them to do. 

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1 minute ago, Curled Finger said:

If you listen to the World Book (or read with your eyes) you can really pick up on the political vibrations at the time of the Tourney at Harrenhal.   I think it was less than 2 years from the tourney to the disastrous end of Targaryen reign.  Aery's suffered an insidious madness and Rhaegar knew he needed to deal with dear old Dad.  Harrenhal was Rhaegar's initial attempt at gauging what support he might have if he attempted to depose the king.  I don't think he could have actually anticipated that his family would be killed in the Red Keep.  What safer place in Westeros is there?   Are we even certain Rhaegar knew where the family was?  

The world book said that Rhaegar returned to the Red Keep to convince his father to bring back Tywin Lannister as hand before he went to the Trident. I'm not sure when they were brought to the Red Keep but I know it happened because Aerys supposed that Lewyn Martell was betraying him by not bringing all of Dorne's levies to the Trident. I guess he might've kept them hidden from his son's site or else Rhaegar might've thrown a right fit about it, I suppose.

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12 minutes ago, corbon said:

What exactly can he do? The King is still the King. Kings orders are Kings orders.

What he can do is go off and win the war. Then it will all be fine. In fact, then he may even have enough soft power to do something about Aerys. But with the rebellion ongoing, he can't afford to move against Aerys and further split the Loyalist ranks. 

 

What's interesting in this is that we are told in 1 version of Harrenhal where Robert laughed and said Rhaegar only did Lyanna justice in crowing her.   Of course there are statements to the contrary.   The point was everything could have been avoided if Rhaegar had been less demonstrative in big sweeping ways, like crowning another guy's betrothed QoLaB.  If the former is the truth, couldn't Rhaegar have made contact with Robert and the Starks to explain what he was doing.   I know it's sappy, but I still like to think Rhaegar somehow saved Lyanna and put her in protective custody, not just gave everyone the finger.   He seemed like an ordered and committed man.   Protecting Lyanna is all I can come up with as a reasonable explanation.   

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2 minutes ago, GoldenGail3 said:

The world book said that Rhaegar returned to the Red Keep to convince his father to bring back Tywin Lannister as hand before he went to the Trident. I'm not sure when they were brought to the Red Keep but I know it happened because Aerys supposed that Lewyn Martell was betraying him by not bringing all of Dorne's levies to the Trident. I guess he might've kept them hidden from his son's site or else Rhaegar might've thrown a right fit about it, I suppose.

It's true.  There is little hope of our finding out what the real deal was on any of this.  

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