How come Rhaegar stationing 3 Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy didn't tip anybody off?

[CamiloRP]

1 minute ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

My thoughts are, they were ordered by King Aerys 2 to find his idiotic son, determine what he was doing with the Stark girl, and make an end of her.  King Aerys 2 had to have hated the Starks.  I am certain that Brandon was questioned and even a strong man would crack.  The king ordered Eddard killed because he believed the boy was old enough to take responsibility for his family.  Lyanna was not much younger.  It is reasonable to suspect them of having knowledge of the Stark-Baratheon conspiracy against the Targaryens.  Look at his pattern.  He spared Dontos Hollard and the squire because they were not responsible for the crimes of their family and lords.  Naturally, he would do the same for Benjen. 

Aerys would send his guards to put Lyanna to rest below ground.  She was not a squire or an innocent little boy.  There is enough doubt of her innocence.  She was an important part of the future blood alliance between the two rogue houses.  The KGs, at least two of them, were there to take her life.  Otherwise, there was no reason for the fight between the Kingsguards and Ned's thugs. 

Hm... But would Arthur murder Rhaegar's "girlfriend"? Also, why didn't them murder her on the spot instead of waiting for Ned to arrive?

[The Lord of the Crossing]

Just now, CamiloRP said:

Hm... But would Arthur murder Rhaegar's "girlfriend"? Also, why didn't them murder her on the spot instead of waiting for Ned to arrive?

I don't know about Arthur.  Hightower and Whent would.  They were absolutely loyal to Aerys.

[corbon]

39 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I like that option. Maybe they where about to burn Lyanna and the baby to fulfill prophecy?

Note that Dayne and Whent were usually assigned to Rhaegar and considered to be close to him. Whent organising the tourney at Harrenhal is suspected to be on Rhaegar's behalf, for example.

And Rhaegar left on a mysterious journey with 6 of his closest friends and confidants months before the abduction of Lyanna.
It is thought that Dayne and Whent were among the 6 - he would likely have had his usual KG protection with him and they are unmentioned from that time until ToJ.

Hightower joined them later - the app indicates that after Connington's defeat at the BotBells Aerys sent Hightower to find Rhaegar and get him to come back and take command.   
And indeed, Rhaegar came back and took command. And Hightower is no longer seen or heard of until ToJ. So it seems Hightower found Rhaegar and got him to return but Rhaegar in turn got Hightower to stay behind.

So it seems apparent that 2 of the three had been with Rhaegar and then Lyanna for more than a year, and the third for months.
And all that time there is no indication Aerys is aware of Lyanna's location, or her pregnancy or anything.

So its not likely that the three were there to burn her. They been with her for months and Ned shows no indication of any preparations for such a thing, and also holds them in very high esteem, which surely doesn't fit them being there as her murderers.

39 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

That would explain not only why they fought

Which is easily explained by who they are and what they know of Ned...

39 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

but how Ned took down an entire tower by himself! 

Which isn't very hard as its merely an old watchtower, probably from the period where Dorne and the Reach frequently raid each other (so well over 100 years since it was maintained) and he has Howland and a dozen or so horses to help.

[corbon]

40 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Hm... But would Arthur murder Rhaegar's "girlfriend"?

We don;t know really. Though it seems not the sort of thing that would fit the whole "Sword of the Morning" and being worthy of wielding it thing.

More importantly, we know Ned still thought very highly of Dayne. 

40 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Also, why didn't them murder her on the spot instead of waiting for Ned to arrive?

I think this idea fails very badly well before it gets to this point.

31 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

I don't know about Arthur.  Hightower and Whent would.  They were absolutely loyal to Aerys.

Whent appears to have been close to Rhaegar. 
From the Worldbook (though do note, this is speculation, not fact - the point being that the speculation shows it is thought that Whent was Rhaegar's confidante):

Quote

If this tale be believed, 'twas Prince Rhaegar who urged Lord Walter to hold the tourney, using his lordship's brother Ser Oswell as a go between. Rhaegar provided Whent with gold sufficient for splendid prizes in order to bring as many lords and knights to Harrenhal as possible. The prince, it is said, had no interest in the tourney as a tourney; his intent was to gather the great lords of the realm together in what amounted to an informal Great Council, in order to discuss ways and means of dealing with the madness of his father, King Aerys II, possibly by means of a regency or a forced abdication.

If indeed this was the purpose behind the tourney, it was a perilous game that Rhaegar Targaryen was playing. Though few doubted that Aerys had taken leave of his senses, many still had good reason to oppose his removal from the Iron Throne, for certain courtiers and councillors had gained great wealth and power through the king's caprice and knew that they stood to lose all should Prince Rhaegar come to power.

But for any of them, being close to Rhaegar does not require that they be disloyal to Aerys. at least not to this point. 

[kissdbyfire]

Here we go again w/ mind-numbingly boring Stark hate. Yawn.

The mad king didn’t spare Dontos Hollard out of the goodness of his heart. He spared him because ser Barristan asked him to, and the king he had just saved couldn’t refuse. 
 

TWoIaF, Aerys II

“Only Ser Symon’s young nephew, Dontos Hollard, was spared—and only then because Ser Barristan begged that mercy as a boon, and the king he had saved could not refuse him.”

[CamiloRP]

24 minutes ago, corbon said:

Note that Dayne and Whent were usually assigned to Rhaegar and considered to be close to him. Whent organising the tourney at Harrenhal is suspected to be on Rhaegar's behalf, for example.

And Rhaegar left on a mysterious journey with 6 of his closest friends and confidants months before the abduction of Lyanna.
It is thought that Dayne and Whent were among the 6 - he would likely have had his usual KG protection with him and they are unmentioned from that time until ToJ.

Hightower joined them later - the app indicates that after Connington's defeat at the BotBells Aerys sent Hightower to find Rhaegar and get him to come back and take command.   
And indeed, Rhaegar came back and took command. And Hightower is no longer seen or heard of until ToJ. So it seems Hightower found Rhaegar and got him to return but Rhaegar in turn got Hightower to stay behind.

So it seems apparent that 2 of the three had been with Rhaegar and then Lyanna for more than a year, and the third for months.
And all that time there is no indication Aerys is aware of Lyanna's location, or her pregnancy or anything.

So its not likely that the three were there to burn her. They been with her for months and Ned shows no indication of any preparations for such a thing, and also holds them in very high esteem, which surely doesn't fit them being there as her murderers.

The idea was that Rhaegar's plan was to burn them. He's trying to create TPWWP, and when Egg tried the same a bunch of people burn to death.

 

Quote

Which isn't very hard as its merely an old watchtower, probably from the period where Dorne and the Reach frequently raid each other (so well over 100 years since it was maintained) and he has Howland and a dozen or so horses to help.

The text says specifically Ned brought it down, not Ned and Howland. 

[corbon]

1 minute ago, CamiloRP said:

The idea was that Rhaegar's plan was to burn them. He's trying to create TPWWP, and when Egg tried the same a bunch of people burn to death.

There is a lot of speculation in there. We don't know what happened at Summerhall. Whether Egg was to blame, or whether any of it (the fire and blood) was deliberate.

 

Does that fit with how Ned thinks of those men?

Does it fit with how Ned, or Barristan, think of Rhaegar?

Does it fit with Rhaegar's own words? "There must be one more". He's trying to get the three heads, not sacrifice a not-king child.
Does it ft with the other sacrificial thoughts around waking dragons? "Kings blood". Two Kings even - first the father then the son, so both were kings"?

[CamiloRP]

1 minute ago, corbon said:

There is a lot of speculation in there. We don't know what happened at Summerhall. Whether Egg was to blame, or whether any of it (the fire and blood) was deliberate.

We know Egg tried to get a savior and a bunch of people died.

 

Quote

Does that fit with how Ned thinks of those men?

Does it fit with how Ned, or Barristan, think of Rhaegar?

Does it fit with Rhaegar's own words? "There must be one more". He's trying to get the three heads, not sacrifice a not-king child.
Does it ft with the other sacrificial thoughts around waking dragons? "Kings blood". Two Kings even - first the father then the son, so both were kings"?

No, but the whole TOJ thing is weird to say the least and nothing seems to fit exactly right. Ned has a lot of weird holes in his memory. And no one really knows Rhaegar. I'm not claiming this to be true tho, it's just a fun possibility, as I said, we know little about the TOJ and most of it confusing as fuck and based on dreams.

[Bael's Bastard]

6 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So the fact that there was a duel at the tower of Joy and that the 3 Kingsguard died then seems to be common knowledge. And yet nobody question why there were 3 of them there. The Kingsguard is supposed to protect the King and his family. Add in the fact that they fought to the death put 2 and 2 together and you get pregnancy. So how come nobody in Westeros noticed this huge hint for R+L=J?

I wouldn't be surprised if some people turn out to have suspected or known of a pregnancy. The rebel narrative assumes she was raped constantly.

But unless a pregnancy was common knowledge, I doubt most people would have looked beyond Lyanna herself to explain the three KG.

She was a high value hostage/whatever, the betrothed of the man who was leading the rebellion against the royals, and sister of his best friend.

[kissdbyfire]

53 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

We know Egg tried to get a savior and a bunch of people died.

We actually don’t know that. 

[frenin]

8 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

The only thing that is commonly known is that 3 KG died and Ned returned the sword. Nothing else. Not where they died and barely how they died.

It's commonly known where they died. Cairns are rather obvious.

To OP's question, I think that they were not wearing the white cloak all that often. Arys Oakheart had to do it. Nor i think that they stayed very long there anyway before they all died.

[frenin]

4 hours ago, corbon said:

He called for the death of the crown prince. In public. 

Thats not just a reaction. 
 

Because said Crown Prince had kidnappedhis sister.

It seems a reaction for anger.

 

 

4 hours ago, corbon said:

Recall Tanselle Too-Tall? And the puppets?

Tanselle was not the heir of Winterfell, nor Prince Baelor had abducted her baby sister.

Lyonel Baratheon also commited treason, he was not punished for it. And received the King'sown daughter as a future bride for his son and hostage against said King.

 

4 hours ago, corbon said:

Yeah, I do. Although I dont remember anything nasty about it... ...because we don;t actually have any information about what actually happened.

The info we have, actually points out about a nasty kidnapping. Where the sources differ is about the reason of said nasty kidnapping and what said nasty kidnapping developed into.

 

4 hours ago, corbon said:

And as I pointed out, Brandon doesn't seem to have mentioned that. Nor does Rickard. 

Jaime is ommiting a good lot of juicy details, so it's bad faith actually claim that,  Rickard came to ransom his own son and ended up burned for treason. There is a good in between that a drunken Jaime retelling an old story would simply ignore, at the end of the day,Cat, as most of the senior Baratheon, Tully, Arryn,  Stark and Lannister clan,  does know what happened there, what she doesn't know, and i assume that no one but Jaime, Ned, Robert, old Jon and perhaps Tywin and Kevan knew was the manner of their deaths.

 

 

4 hours ago, corbon said:

What he Brandon did was extraordinarily flammable, and with no positive prospective outcome.

Not true, what he did was extraodinary flammable, but any reasonable king would have let it go given the context, or as the most severe judgment, Brandon and co, would have been forced to take the Black, that would not have turned into a mass murder orgy. As if Brandon had gone to Aerys quietly, Aerys would not have seized him and done the very same thing anyway.

I see Brandon's wave of accusations as another way to redirect the blame from Rhaegar and Lyanna. 

 

 

5 hours ago, corbon said:

Rhaegar wasn't even there! 

He believed he was there.

 

 

 

 

[SeanF]

59 minutes ago, frenin said:

Because said Crown Prince had kidnappedhis sister.

It seems a reaction for anger.

 

Tanselle was not the heir of Winterfell, nor Prince Baelor had abducted her baby sister.

Lyonel Baratheon also commited treason, he was not punished for it. And received the King'sown daughter as a future bride for his son and hostage against said King.

 

The info we have, actually points out about a nasty kidnapping. Where the sources differ is about the reason of said nasty kidnapping and what said nasty kidnapping developed into.

 

1. I think in any case, the treatment of Tanselle is presented as being atrocious.

2. I'd be interested for your reasoning on it being a nasty kidnapping.  Do we really have sufficient information?  

[corbon]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

It's commonly known where they died. Cairns are rather obvious.

No, its not. You've just invented that. there is no evidence at all that anyone outside of Ned and Howland know exactly where they died.

The building of a cairn does not instantly make the knowledge of the the cairn's existence, or its purpose, 'widely known'.

Cairns in an isolated place that no one has reason to visit may be entirely unknown, except by the builders.
And if anyone did visit, what do they learn? There are cairns. Not what (or who) they are for.

2 hours ago, frenin said:

To OP's question, I think that they were not wearing the white cloak all that often. Arys Oakheart had to do it. Nor i think that they stayed very long there anyway before they all died.

Ned's dream title refers to them in white cloaks. 
Though that doesn't mean they wore them all the time, agreed.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Because said Crown Prince had kidnappedhis sister.

It seems a reaction for anger.

Yes. Seems.

But its not just a reaction. He had days to formulate his response. 
And he didn't ride into the Red Keep calling for his sister's return.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Tanselle was not the heir of Winterfell,

She also didn't call for the death of the crown prince.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

nor Prince Baelor had abducted her baby sister.

Brandon didn't demand Lyanna's return or release. At least not initially, or that we know of.
Its unlikely anyone in KL even knew of the supposed 'abduction' at that stage. 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Lyonel Baratheon also commited treason, he was not punished for it. And received the King'sown daughter as a future bride for his son and hostage against said King.

There was a whole war and a trial by battle, and a different king. One circumstance is not the other. Just because Lyonel got away with treason (in the long term) doesn't mean every jackass in the seven kingdoms can expect to do so.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

The info we have, actually points out about a nasty kidnapping.

Bullshit. We have virtually no info at all about what actually happened. 

And Robert's commentary on it is about a stupid as Dany's. Its pretty clear that Ned doesn't accept that Robert is remotely close to the truth. He's just mouthing off his hate.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Where the sources differ is about the reason of said nasty kidnapping and what said nasty kidnapping developed into.

The 'sources' don't cover the actual event at all.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Jaime is ommiting a good lot of juicy details, so it's bad faith actually claim that, 

No, its an accurate account of all we know of that event. There is no reason to believe Jaime has or would omit any important details.

The point is, Brandon didn't ride into the Red Keep screaming for Lyanna's return.
Nor did Rickard. 

She may have come up that we haven't heard about yet. My point is that its interesting that she apparently wasn't the key part of either Brandon or Rickard's story.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Rickard came to ransom his own son and ended up burned for treason.

Agreed.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

There is a good in between that a drunken Jaime retelling an old story would simply ignore, at the end of the day,

Sure. But the point remains. Lyanna wasn't the key to either Brandon or Rickard's arrivals to the Red Keep. If she were, thats not the sort of detail one omits.

So the narrative put forward, doesn't fit what we are told. Brandon's reaction is clearly derived from the supposed 'abduction', but its not just a reaction to that. The natural reaction to that would be to demand her release or return. Or even to see her. But thats not what he demanded.

Also telling, is Hoster's reaction, upon hearing what Brandon did.
He raged and called Brandon a gallant fool.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Cat, as most of the senior Baratheon, Tully, Arryn,  Stark and Lannister clan,  does know what happened there,

No, she did not know. Not in any detail. Her summary was that Aerys had Brandon strangled and then murdered Rickard. She didn't know that there were trials (or a sort). She didn't know Rickard demanded trial by combat. She didn't know that Brandon strangled himself trying to rescue his father.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

what she doesn't know, and i assume that no one but Jaime, Ned, Robert, old Jon and perhaps Tywin and Kevan knew was the manner of their deaths.

Why do you get to assume who does and does not know? 
Why would anyone not present know the manner of their deaths? because they were informed.
Maybe those people do, maybe they don't. Why would they be told and not others though?

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Not true,

I don;t see any way that riding into the Red Keep and demanding Rhaegar's death is going to end positively for Brandon. 
If he'd ridden in demanding Lyanna's return, I could see a positive outcome being possible (but probably destroyed by Aerys). But demanding Rhaegar die? Leaves no room.

And with Rhaegar not there, its not even possible that Rhaegar could accept it as a challenge.
So he can't create the death of Rhaegar this way, he can't get back his sister this way, he can't avenge House honour this way. There is literally no possible positive outcome for Brandon in the circumstances.

Now if his approach had been different, then there might be the reasonable expectation of a positive outcome. And then the blame would fall squarely on Aerys' shoulders' rather than Brandon's.

But with what Brandon did, he has to accept as much blame as Aerys for escalating the situation.

Neither of which 'absolve' Rhaegar and Lyanna. But assessing their portion of blame must necessarily wait until we know exactly what they did and did not do.
Unless we are mindless and unreasonable haters. 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

what he did was extraodinary flammable, but any reasonable king would have let it go given the context,

Aerys was already known for paranoia and distrust, not reasonable-ness.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

or as the most severe judgment, Brandon and co, would have been forced to take the Black,

Even under a reasonable king the penalty for treason is death. And this wasn't a reasonable king, but a fearful paranoiac. A reasonable and just king might reduce the sentence or even forgive it due to the circumstances.
Its a bit silly though to judge Brandon's actions only by the standards of what the very best king might do.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

that would not have turned into a mass murder orgy.

Nor did it. 
There were trials (of sorts).  They may not have been (I expect they weren't) fair trials, but describbing it as a mass murder orgy is as over the top as it is silly to give Brandon a complete pass.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

As if Brandon had gone to Aerys quietly, Aerys would not have seized him and done the very same thing anyway.

We'll never know that. 
Brandon shouldn't have gone to him at all. Thats was Rickard's place. 
And if Rickard had gone to Aerys quietly, they may very well have come to an agreement. Neither of them wanted Lyanna and Rhaegar to be together, after all. They actually had common ground over the incident, were largely in agreement about undoing it I think.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

I see Brandon's wave of accusations as another way to redirect the blame from Rhaegar and Lyanna. 

There's blame aplenty all round.
But its not exactly reasonable to apportion blame fully  to parties - at this stage - when we don't know what they did, or didn't, do.

Brandon's actions are know - and his prospective father-in-law called him a fool. 
Aerys' actions are known. And he's called the Mad King for a reason.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

He believed he was there.

He was too stupid to find out, before mouthing off treason in public.
We was the wild wolf, and it led him to an early grave.

[Lord Varys]

10 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yes, but the point is, it’s not Rhaegar’s place to order the KG around. He is only the crown prince, not the king. Like I said, Aerys can tell the KG, “obey my son Rhaegar no matter what”, and that would be different b/c they’d still be doing what the king told them to do. 

That kind of idea went down the toilet a long time ago. Just think how in FaB Larys Strong, a succession of ambitious and scheming regents and Hands, and a half-treacherous Lord Commander of the Kingsguard (Marston Waters) commanded the KG to do all sorts of crazy things.

Those people are just bodyguards. They may swear cool vows and they may view themselves as only beholden to and specially connected with the king ... but in practice they are just goons with swords who do as their are told by the people who are in charge at court.

Of course, one can ask why the hell the KG with Rhaegar - especially after Gerold Hightower, their Lord Commander, joined them - would prefer any orders or missions or requests of Rhaegar's to those of the Mad King ... but that's not that difficult to answer:

Oswell Whent and Arthur Dayne were Rhaegar men to the bone, being with him (most likely) since before the war started (and Whent was even half a traitor to his king, anyway, if he truly helped Rhaegar arrange the Harrenhal tourney with the intention to discuss the possible abdication of the king or putting some limits on his ability to run his government), and Gerold Hightower may also have decided that Rhaegar was a saner Targaryen specimen than his loony father who he would feel honored to serve.

Only if you presuppose those men would have been conflicted is there an actual conflict. The fact that they did not return to KL does implicitly confirm that they did not want to return, regardless whether the king commanded it or not. We don't know why they did not return - because Rhaegar commanded it, because they refused to go, because the king had given Hightower special instructions when he sent him on his mission. There are many possibilities.

But the core point remains that Rhaegar had no way of making them do what they did ... meaning that they cannot have felt it was a higher duty to return to King Aerys II than to do what they did.

13 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So the fact that there was a duel at the tower of Joy and that the 3 Kingsguard died then seems to be common knowledge. And yet nobody question why there were 3 of them there. The Kingsguard is supposed to protect the King and his family. Add in the fact that they fought to the death put 2 and 2 together and you get pregnancy. So how come nobody in Westeros noticed this huge hint for R+L=J?

There is no reason to assume that not everybody and their grandmother knew what those men were protecting there. People may have known that Lyanna Stark was Rhaegar's mistress/wife/hostage. And as such she would have been entitled to any kind of the protection the king and his court and family saw fit.

If there is an official story about the deaths of those knights and the death of Lyanna Stark and her child, then nobody would necessarily connect that child with Jon Snow.

In fact, it is silly to assume Ned went down south to find Lya and then returned to court with a bastard infant for everybody to see. If he had done that, then some people may have gotten suspicious, but it is much more likely he sent the child directly to Winterfell and never actually publicly communicated he had a bastard. Eventually people would have learned that there was a bastard of Ned Stark's at Winterfell, a child he brought back from the war, but this wouldn't be connected to the whole Lyanna affair.

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

We know Egg tried to get a savior and a bunch of people died.

Egg didn't care about a savior. He wanted dragons for political reasons. His son Jaehaerys cared about the prophecy of the promised prince. His obsession with that and his belief in the dwarf woman's additional prophecy caused him to marry his children to each other. Aegon V did not approve of that but allowed his son and heir to have his way in this matter.

Egg himself thought he could hatch the dragon eggs with whatever plan he had. He didn't think there was a need for a future promised prince for that. He thought he could do it himself.

[kissdbyfire]

@Lord Varys, the point was, in theory the KG obey the king. Of course there are known cases where this was chucked out the window. Because people are people, and we can have bad and unworthy kings and bad and unworthy kingsguards.

That's why I always say blind obedience to any vow is stupid and cowardly. Words are wind, it's actions that matter. 

And you're the one who is always banging on and on about how people must stick to their vows no matter what. 

[CamiloRP]

8 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

We actually don’t know that. 

Really? I was effin' sure of it!

[CamiloRP]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Egg didn't care about a savior. He wanted dragons for political reasons. His son Jaehaerys cared about the prophecy of the promised prince. His obsession with that and his belief in the dwarf woman's additional prophecy caused him to marry his children to each other. Aegon V did not approve of that but allowed his son and heir to have his way in this matter.

Egg himself thought he could hatch the dragon eggs with whatever plan he had. He didn't think there was a need for a future promised prince for that. He thought he could do it himself.

Sure, but it was Aemon's and Rhaegar's thought that it produced the PWWP, when Rhaegar tried to make his own PWWP he could've attempted doing the thing that seemed to work the last time.

[kissdbyfire]

13 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Really? I was effin' sure of it!

We don't actually know much at all about what happened at Summerhall. There's a lot of speculation and assumptions, but very few facts. The truth is, we can't even be sure the tragedy there was caused by Egg trying to hatch dragons' eggs. It's entirely possible, of course, but not a fact established in the text at this point. 

7 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Sure, but it was Aemon's and Rhaegar's thought that it produced the PWWP, when Rhaegar tried to make his own PWWP he could've attempted doing the thing that seemed to work the last time.

I'm not sure what you mean here?