How come Rhaegar stationing 3 Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy didn't tip anybody off?

[Ser Leftwich]

7 hours ago, frenin said:

It's commonly known where they died. Cairns are rather obvious.

 

Cite anything in the books about this "obviousness."

There are lots of piles of rocks in mountain passes.

In fact we know it is not obvious and commonly known.

If it was obvious and commonly known, why didn't Lady Dustin send someone to get her husbands bones? Or the Daynes. Or any of them.

No one knows.

[CamiloRP]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

We don't actually know much at all about what happened at Summerhall. There's a lot of speculation and assumptions, but very few facts. The truth is, we can't even be sure the tragedy there was caused by Egg trying to hatch dragons' eggs. It's entirely possible, of course, but not a fact established in the text at this point. 

Yeah I just searched it in the wiki just in case ._. 

Tho I was mistaken that it was a fact, it still seems like a fair assumption, specially if we're already assuming that Lyanna had a baby in the tower, or even that that baby was Jon.

 

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I'm not sure what you mean here?

Aemon and Rhaegar thought that whatever happened at SH produced Rhaegar as a prince who was promised. If then Rhaegar tries to make his children into the prince(s) who was promised, he might try the same thing that Egg thought would work and seemed to (kinda) work.

[Lord Varys]

37 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

@Lord Varys, the point was, in theory the KG obey the king. Of course there are known cases where this was chucked out the window. Because people are people, and we can have bad and unworthy kings and bad and unworthy kingsguards.

It is not just that - the point was about the idea that we can make a case that the KG as an institution is only/mainly beholden to the king in practice. The idea that one can, on the basis of their vows, speculate about who can order them about or whose orders they have a right to question is pretty much moot now.

The KG are just goons with swords. They do as they are told. They don't have the right to double-check whether a command given by this or that courtier contradicts the intentions of the king unless they are already under very specific orders from the king.

The best example for that is when various KG turn against Aegon III in a rather active way, or when Rickard Thorne and Willis Fell agree to abandon their king, Aegon II, in favor of protecting his young children.

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That's why I always say blind obedience to any vow is stupid and cowardly. Words are wind, it's actions that matter.

Yes, men do show their true colors when they break the vows and promises they made. Especially when nobody coerced them to become a bodyguard for life to a raving madman...

Vows are not just words, they are commitments for life when they involve the person joining an order you cannot leave while you live. People who later break such promises just show that they should have never made such commitments in the first place. Because there are people who can keep their promises and vows, even in this shitty world.

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And you're the one who is always banging on and on about how people must stick to their vows no matter what. 

No, I say that people who have the character deficits of not fulfilling a pledge or not keeping a promise do suck in this regard. There are mitigating factors in all those cases, of course, but they do not account to much in the cases where people freely and gladly chose a shitty job/mission for life (like, say, the fools Jon Snow and Jaime Lannister).

[Lord Varys]

26 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Sure, but it was Aemon's and Rhaegar's thought that it produced the PWWP, when Rhaegar tried to make his own PWWP he could've attempted doing the thing that seemed to work the last time.

No, you are mistaken. Aemon and Rhaegar (and most likely Jaehaerys II and Rhaegar's parents) believed that Rhaegar was the promised prince because the original prophecy states he will be born 'amidst smoke and salt' and they interpreted Rhaegar's birth as fulfilling that part - he was born amidst the smoke of the fire that consumed Summerhall and amidst the salty tears of the survivors who mourned the dead.

This belief was possible because the dwarf woman had, in addition, prophesied, that the promised prince would be born from the line of Aerys and Rhaella, meaning that - if that prophecy wasn't nonsense or misinterpreted, of course - only a direct descendant of Rhaella and Aerys II can possibly be the promised prince.

It isn't that surprising that they thought little Rhaegar fit the bill under those circumstances - especially since they would have wanted to make sense of what happened at Summerhall.

The whole fire ritual thing at Summerhall was about hatching dragon eggs. It had nothing to do with the promised prince since - again - Aegon V thought he could do that without waiting for some promised prince.

Rhaegar never even had a dragon egg as far as we know, nor did he ever made any attempts to hatch any dragon eggs.

19 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

We don't actually know much at all about what happened at Summerhall. There's a lot of speculation and assumptions, but very few facts. The truth is, we can't even be sure the tragedy there was caused by Egg trying to hatch dragons' eggs. It's entirely possible, of course, but not a fact established in the text at this point.

That is actually pretty much established. We do know that they wanted to hatch dragon eggs at Summerhall, we know that they played around with wildfire there as part of that ritual, and we do know the castle burned down and a lot of people died.

We don't know what happened in detail. It is possible that the ritual was sabotaged or some third party used the ritual as a smokescreen to burn down the palace ... but even if something like that was the case then Egg's ritual as such still provided the stage for the tragedy. If Aegon V hadn't tried to hatch dragon eggs at Summerhall, then the tragedy of Summerhall wouldn't have happened the way it did.

[kissdbyfire]

11 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Yeah I just searched it in the wiki just in case ._. 

Tho I was mistaken that it was a fact, it still seems like a fair assumption, specially if we're already assuming that Lyanna had a baby in the tower, or even that that baby was Jon.

I don't think it is a fair assumption at all, and especially not comparable to R+L=J. The former is assumptions and leaps based on very little textual support, whereas the latter has solid textual evidence (w/ a fair amount of red herrings thrown in, because that's how Martin rolls). 

11 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Aemon and Rhaegar thought that whatever happened at SH produced Rhaegar as a prince who was promised. If then Rhaegar tries to make his children into the prince(s) who was promised, he might try the same thing that Egg thought would work and seemed to (kinda) work.

Well, again, the whole Summerhall tragedy and the assumptions non-PoV characters made, coupled w/ practically no text based facts is right up Martin's sleeve. I will refrain from reaching conclusions until I get at least a few more facts. 

[kissdbyfire]

double post 

[CamiloRP]

@Lord Varys @kissdbyfire All good!

[Frey family reunion]

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The whole fire ritual thing at Summerhall was about hatching dragon eggs. It had nothing to do with the promised prince since - again - Aegon V thought he could do that without waiting for some promised prince.

That I’m not sure about.  We can make an inference that the prince that was promised is tied to the hatching of dragons, based on Aemon’s conversation with Sam:

Quote

On Braavos, it had seemed possible that Aemon might recover. Xhondo’s talk of dragons had almost seemed to restore the old man to himself. That night he ate every bite Sam put before him. “No one ever looked for a girl,” he said. “It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought … the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King’s Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke.  The dragons prove it.”

 

We don’t know that Rhaegar ever had any dragon eggs, but we know that Summerhall was an attempt to hatch dragons.  So we have a reason to believe that there should be dragon eggs in the custody of the Targaryens at least at the time of Rhaegar’s birth.  And we also know that Rhaegar was obsessed with Summerhall.

[KingStoneheart]

14 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

The Kingsguard can be tasked with anything. Balon Swan was sent to Dorne to escort a head, Jaime was sent to end war in the Riverlands, Loras is sent to take Dragonstone. So if Rhaegar would ask the KG to protect his basterd, they would do it, if he'd ask them to protect a random person he found in Fleabottom, they'd do it, and if he asked them to keep watch of a prisoner, they'd do it.

What I find weird tho, it why did the KG fought against Ned. I mean, what was that fight about? To me this indicates that they didn't want to protect Lyanna and the possible baby, as that would obviously be the same thing Ned wanted, and even them fighting is not the best way of protecting them, they could've fled. And why didn't them use the tower in the fight? they're three of the best swordsmen in the realm, if they could use the tower's advantage is likely that they would have won.

These were three great members of the Kingsguard, not Boros Blount. If Rhaegar tells them to stand guard at the ToJ, they will stand guard. Regardless of what it is exactly that he commanded them to do, they would have obeyed. So what do you imagine they would do when the Usurper's right hand shows up demanding his sister? Regardless of if both parties had the intent to protect her, the Kingsguard would have done their duty to follow orders and be the ones to protect her.

[Frey family reunion]

13 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

A youtuber I watch who isn't normally a whacko seems to think that the Kingsguard at the TOJ did a reverse suicide by cop honor death thing.  It doesn't make much sense with Ned and his gang essentially on the same side.   Could be Rhaegar told them specifically to kill anyone who came around or any number of things.  It's not like Rhaegar didn't know the Starks were gunning for him because he absolutely could have used his Kingsguard's support during the war raging.  Maybe my youtuber isn't far off in thinking there is some honor/duty directive involved here.  Ned is the only person I've seen give a sword back after a guy is dead.   Unwin grabbed his sword up and there are plenty of examples of VS swords being taken from corpses.  The Daynes like Ned.   Revere Ned even.   It doesn't add up or make a lot of sense.  I just try to keep myself in check because this is a maddening subject, by understanding everything I know about the TOJ came from a very sick man's fever dream.   The story just isn't right, complete, exact or understandable.  

I'd be interested in seeing that video.  That's my belief as well. 

My theory is that the Kingsguards were not guarding Lyanna and "heir" at the tower of joy.  But instead the Kingsguards were tasked with fulfilling Rhaegar's and/or Aerys' dream of dragons, which may have involved the sacrifice of one or more children with "kingsblood".  

They swore an oath they felt they had a duty to fulfill, but they took no, err "joy" in the task.  

Which is why I think Eddard maintains such reverence for Ser Arthur.  Arthur chose death over dishonor. 

My guess is Arthur could have killed Eddard if he chose, but Howland's intervention was not a physical one, but instead a verbal one.  They talked out a solution which solved Arthur's dilemna.  

[CamiloRP]

3 minutes ago, KingStoneheart said:

These were three great members of the Kingsguard, not Boros Blount. If Rhaegar tells them to stand guard at the ToJ, they will stand guard. Regardless of what it is exactly that he commanded them to do, they would have obeyed. So what do you imagine they would do when the Usurper's right hand shows up demanding his sister? Regardless of if both parties had the intent to protect her, the Kingsguard would have done their duty to follow orders and be the ones to protect her.

But how is killing her brother protecting her? And what would they do after killing them? keep killing anyone who came? What if after they killed Ned, Tywin showed up, killed them and then killed Lyanna and the baby?

 

4 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Which is why I think Eddard maintains such reverence for Ser Arthur.  Arthur chose death over dishonor. 

My guess is Arthur could have killed Eddard if he chose, but Howland's intervention was not a physical one, but instead a verbal one.  They talked out a solution which solved Arthur's dilemna.  

This... this is just cool

[KingStoneheart]

11 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

But how is killing her brother protecting her? And what would they do after killing them? keep killing anyone who came? What if after they killed Ned, Tywin showed up, killed them and then killed Lyanna and the baby?

They would have kept trying to kill whoever came afterwards yes. They were dutiful Kingsguard prepared to die for their royal family and it would have been dishonor to let Ned take Lyanna away. It's similiar in a way to Jaime becoming the Kingslayer. The dutiful thing of a Kingsguard would have been to obey the Mad King and kill Tywin, but he done what was right and killed the Mad King.

You've also got to remember that they were not only protecting a prisoner but most likely Rhaegar's wife (and trueborn heir, most importantly).

[CamiloRP]

2 minutes ago, KingStoneheart said:

They would have kept trying to kill whoever came afterwards yes. They were dutiful Kingsguard prepared to die for their royal family and it would have been dishonor to let Ned take Lyanna away. It's similiar in a way to Jaime becoming the Kingslayer. The dutiful thing of a Kingsguard would have been to obey the Mad King and kill Tywin, but he done what was right and killed the Mad King.

You've also got to remember that they were not only protecting a prisoner but most likely Rhaegar's wife (and trueborn heir, most importantly).

But my point is that that's not the best way to protect them, they could try to talk it out with Ned, or flee, or use the tower, or use Lyanna as a hostage, but trying to win a seven on three fight isn't the best option. They where Rhaegr's friends, they wouldn't want to get his last heir and "girlfriend" killed just by following his orders to the line instead of doing the best thing to do and the thing he would have likely preferred if he was indeed in love with Lyanna.

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

6 hours ago, corbon said:

No, its an accurate account of all we know of that event. There is no reason to believe Jaime has or would omit any important details.

Jaime is not exactly giving a play by play analysis of everything that happened complete with all dialogue by the parties. All he says is that Brandon rode into the Red Keep demanding Rhaegar come out and die and that Aerys had him arrested for it. He only brings up Rickard after Catelyn says they were killed without trial, which prompts Jaime to correct her by describing the "trial" that took place. There's absolutely no reason to conclude that Rickard said nothing about Lyanna based on that passage. There's not much reason to assume Brandon didn't either, we have one paraphrased line of dialogue from him, I'm sure he said more than that during the event in question (not to mention Lyanna was the obvious motivation for wanting to kill Rhaegar). I find your take on this a bit odd in light of your emphasis on not making assumptions or inferences elsewhere.

 

6 hours ago, corbon said:

Even under a reasonable king the penalty for treason is death.

I find it hard to believe that death would even be considered for Brandon under a reasonable king. If he was a common schmuck, sure. But high lords and their heirs get a lot more leeway than some common schmuck, particularly given the circumstances of him being told Rhaegar had kidnapped his sister. In real life it wasn't at all unheard of in the Middle Ages for lords who actually committed treason through participating in full-on rebellions against the king to be let go with a ransom or some other punishment. Brandon was a fucking idiot, but the idea that he absolutely had to die for that one line is based on a pretty caricatured version of medieval justice. And equating his responsibility for the Rebellion with that of Aerys is absurd.

Regarding the debate about "nasty kidnapping" - it's true we don't know the details, but I think too much emphasis is put on the importance of whether or not Lyanna went willingly, in terms of how that would affect how people would see it in-universe. In their society, her opinion doesn't really matter in this situation. A lord's already-betrothed daughter running off with a married man is just not acceptable. For a man to do that without her father's permission is still essentially kidnapping in their eyes. Even in our world it'd be considered kidnapping due to Lyanna's age invalidating her consent. And while it is true of course that Westeros doesn't follow our norms about age and consent, that's more than made up for by the patriarchal norms restricting the freedom of unmarried noble women and girls to run off with whoever they want.

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

The extent to which the details of this situation are publicly known (or believed to be known) is somewhat ambiguous. We know that soldiers at Winterfell started spreading rumors about Ned killing Arthur Dayne in single combat. Cersei also accused Ned of killing Arthur when she brought up Ashara. Ned told Bran that Arthur Dayne would have killed him if not for Howland Reed. So does this mean the overall story of Ned and his companions fighting the KG trio is widely known? Do people know where it took place, or why? Do they know that they fought outside a tower where Lyanna was inside? Presumably Ned gave some story to the families of his companions who died at the ToJ. How much did he tell them? Do they know their loved ones were killed by the KG?

We also don't fully know how well-known the ToJ was or exactly how isolated it was. It's described as being on the north end of the Prince's Pass, but what exactly does that mean? Is it hidden from the main road travelers would take? The tower would presumably have servants, and at the very least people would have to come to bring supplies for the inhabitants. According to the wiki, the semi-canon "A World of Ice and Fire" app says that Lyanna was found inside the tower by Ned. Setting aside the debate about canon status of the app, I'm not familiar with it so can anyone explain if the app is meant to be from an in-universe perspective like how TWOIAF is written by a maester? Would this mean that (according to the app) the name of the tower and Ned finding her there was public knowledge? And speaking of Lyanna, there is the question of how her death was explained. How do people in Westeros believe she died? Ned tells Robert that he was with her when she died, so at the very least we know he didn't give Robert a story about how she was already dead when he found her. Did he tell him where he found her? Did he tell him that he fought the KG there? Did he need to say that?

I know there's a lot of questions in this post, and I don't have the answers to them or else they wouldn't be needed. It's tough to make a full judgement on this without knowing exactly what the public (or at least prominent nobility) knows or believes. If it is widely known that the KG were stationed with Lyanna at a tower in Dorne and fought Ned and his crew to the death right before she died (for whatever reason), it should be a little suspicious that Ned came home with a bastard son after the war. But we don't necessarily know how well-known those details are.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

That I’m not sure about.  We can make an inference that the prince that was promised is tied to the hatching of dragons, based on Aemon’s conversation with Sam:

We don’t know that Rhaegar ever had any dragon eggs, but we know that Summerhall was an attempt to hatch dragons.  So we have a reason to believe that there should be dragon eggs in the custody of the Targaryens at least at the time of Rhaegar’s birth.  And we also know that Rhaegar was obsessed with Summerhall.

Of course. But Aegon V believed he could do it without the promised prince. He played with the idea of his egg being the one who hatched even back in TMK but by the time of Summerhall he was not caring about old prophecies or new prophecies (i.e. neither the original promised prince thing which certainly never fit him and his life, nor the additional prophecy of the dwarf woman his heir believed in - he did not even want Aerys and Rhaella to marry and apparently just indulged his heir there) but instead about the magical knowledge he had been acquiring prior to Summerhall ... and most of all, most likely, he believed in the prophetic power of his own dreams. Which showed him dragons flying once more above Westeros, most likely Dany's dragons.

At the time of Rhaegar's birth the Targaryens still had seven dragon eggs - those used at Summerhall. One imagines that they were destroyed there since neither Rhaegar nor Viserys are ever mentioned to have had dragon eggs of their own in their cradles ... Aerys and Rhaella may have gotten some. If they did, they would have been among the seven eggs at Summerhall.

The Mad King later found some petrified eggs back on Dragonstone when he tried to hatch dragons after Duskendale, but those were eggs they rediscovered/found after a search on the island. Whether those were still around during the Rebellion is unclear. Could be some of them are Dany's eggs ... if they aren't Elissa Farman's.

[Curled Finger]

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I'd be interested in seeing that video.  That's my belief as well. 

My theory is that the Kingsguards were not guarding Lyanna and "heir" at the tower of joy.  But instead the Kingsguards were tasked with fulfilling Rhaegar's and/or Aerys' dream of dragons, which may have involved the sacrifice of one or more children with "kingsblood".  

They swore an oath they felt they had a duty to fulfill, but they took no, err "joy" in the task.  

Which is why I think Eddard maintains such reverence for Ser Arthur.  Arthur chose death over dishonor. 

My guess is Arthur could have killed Eddard if he chose, but Howland's intervention was not a physical one, but instead a verbal one.  They talked out a solution which solved Arthur's dilemna.  

Robert at In Deep Geek has a whole playlist on the events at the Tower of Joy.   He's not normally way out there so perhaps I misconstrued what he said, but give it a go if you like.  

Does you idea go to perhaps sacrificing the new baby of Lyanna?  Crazy as it sounds, maybe there is something to it.   This topic makes the lack of information and vivid imaginations of the readers abundantly clear.  I won't spoil the video series for you.   Let's just leave it at you may have a kindred spirit on Youtube.  Enjoy!  

[Ivan Tsarevich]

18 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Hightower though was fighting, he was at the BotB.

I'd be interested in source/s hinting or confirming Hightower's presence and/or actions in the BotB and about.

[kissdbyfire]

7 minutes ago, TsarGrey said:

I'd be interested in source/s hinting or confirming Hightower's presence and/or actions in the BotB and about.

The app, under Rhaegar Targaryen, so semi canon. To me it makes sense that Hightower wasn’t w/ Rhaegar from the start, though. And by “start” I mean when he went back to the Riverlands w/ a few friends, as per the quote below.

TWoIaF, The Year of the False Spring
 

“Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides.”

 

[Ivan Tsarevich]

29 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

The app, under Rhaegar Targaryen, so semi canon.

I don't have that, so would you care to tell what it says in the relevant part? Anything else than just listing him present or something of the sort?

Not disputing the rest. Not in the mood and too little info for that.