What other marriage options were there for Lyanna Stark?

[Alyn Oakenfist]

3 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Brandon Stark + Lyanna Stark = Jon Snow

Nah mate the evidence clearly shows R+L=J (meaning Rickard+Lyanna=Jon)

[The Commentator]

9 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I imagine that she could be married off to a Frey, if it’s the heir. When Tytos arranged the marriage for Genna, one of her complaints was that it wasn’t the heir. And nobody felt that Robb marrying a Frey girl was a mesalliance, even though Walder forced his hand. Of course, there are several better options.

That is actually not such a bad match but the way the over proud nobles looked down on the Freys might present a problem with Rickard and Brandon.  

[Alyn Oakenfist]

Just now, Widowmaker 811 said:

That is actually not such a bad match but the way the over proud nobles looked down on the Freys might present a problem with Rickard and Brandon.  

On the other hand it would completely secure the Riverlands for the Starks with both the Tullys and the Freys allied to them.

[Lee-Sensei]

16 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

That is actually not such a bad match but the way the over proud nobles looked down on the Freys might present a problem with Rickard and Brandon.  

To the heir? I’m not sure about that. Genna was married to a second son and the Frey that courted Rhaenyra was a younger son. I think that there’s a reason that George keeps on making these Frey marriage options down the line of succession. There are better options for Lyanna of course, but I don’t think that marrying her off to someone in the direct line for the Twins would be out of the question.

[TheLastWolf]

13 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Brandon Stark + Lyanna Stark = Jon Snow

 

19 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

please no more gross incest. Targs are more than enough 

 

[TheLastWolf]

13 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Nah mate the evidence clearly shows R+L=J (meaning Rickard+Lyanna=Jon)

[Alyn Oakenfist]

9 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

13 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Nah mate the evidence clearly shows R+L=J (meaning Rickard+Lyanna=Jon)

[Wall Flower]

15 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

To the heir? I’m not sure about that. Genna was married to a second son and the Frey that courted Rhaenyra was a younger son. I think that there’s a reason that George keeps on making these Frey marriage options down the line of succession. There are better options for Lyanna of course, but I don’t think that marrying her off to someone in the direct line for the Twins would be out of the question.

Lyanna would have run off even earlier if they'd betrothed to a Frey.

Based on the little we know of her, a northern vassal would have been the best personal match for her and had some advantages for House Stark, given that Brandon was marrying a Tully.

[Alex13]

2 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

Based on the little we know of her, a northern vassal would have been the best personal match for her and had some advantages for House Stark, given that Brandon was marrying a Tully.

I wonder if Rickard contemplated a marriage between Lyanna and Roose Bolton, provided that he wasn't married. Or if he was wary of giving the Bolton's a marriage with the Stark's. 

He could have kept Lyanna in the North and tied the Stark's to their one of their most powerful bannerman through marriage. Of course, that could have also opened up potential schemes from Roose, to sit his child by Lyanna in Winterfell and himself as regent. 

[Lee-Sensei]

7 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

Lyanna would have run off even earlier if they'd betrothed to a Frey.

Based on the little we know of her, a northern vassal would have been the best personal match for her and had some advantages for House Stark, given that Brandon was marrying a Tully.

Probably. I’m not talking about what she’d want though. I’m only talking about her potential political matches.

[Curled Finger]

Seems to me Lyanna was an age to be set up with some of our main characters, Jamie, Robert, a whole bunch of knights, Victarion Greyjoy or Oberyn Martell, even Rhaegar if Rickard had been more foresighted.   I'm not so sure Jon Arryn was the mastermind behind overthrowing the targs.  Seems to me if that's what the point of fostering your kids and marrying them off you would do a whole lot better with Tywin Lannister on your side.   Roberts' rebellion would have gone much differently had Tywin been in from the get go.  So there was more.  Lyanna was not the heir, so there was no real harm in selling that cow to that foreign farmer over yonder.  Daughters weren't worth as much as sons, but the Baratheon match was pretty well made, personalities not withstanding.  Brandon would have been married off to the Riverlands and Ned would have likely been married to a vassal.   Thank the Old gods and New that poor Ned didn't end up with bitter Barbary.  Shudder. 

Ned held the men he kept company with in high esteem.  Locally, Lyanna would have been worth much more.   Too bad Jorah went for that southern Hightower strange instead of homegrown.  Lyanna and by extension Cersei, Cat & Lysa--any of the women available at the time could have been matched far better than what Rickard and Hoster designed.   None of the dad designed power couples turned out that great for anyone.   

[Arthur Peres]

On 9/24/2020 at 1:46 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Nah mate the evidence clearly shows R+L=J (meaning Rickard+Lyanna=Jon)

CK2 nightmare intensifies...Saw that in one game and burned my eyes.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

10 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Saw that in one game and burned my eyes.

Yeah, fanfics have nothing on the wild shit ck2 occasionally pulls

[Angel Eyes]

13 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Seems to me Lyanna was an age to be set up with some of our main characters, Jamie, Robert, a whole bunch of knights, Victarion Greyjoy or Oberyn Martell, even Rhaegar if Rickard had been more foresighted.   I'm not so sure Jon Arryn was the mastermind behind overthrowing the targs.  Seems to me if that's what the point of fostering your kids and marrying them off you would do a whole lot better with Tywin Lannister on your side.   Roberts' rebellion would have gone much differently had Tywin been in from the get go.  So there was more.  Lyanna was not the heir, so there was no real harm in selling that cow to that foreign farmer over yonder.  Daughters weren't worth as much as sons, but the Baratheon match was pretty well made, personalities not withstanding.  Brandon would have been married off to the Riverlands and Ned would have likely been married to a vassal.   Thank the Old gods and New that poor Ned didn't end up with bitter Barbary.  Shudder. 

Ned held the men he kept company with in high esteem.  Locally, Lyanna would have been worth much more.   Too bad Jorah went for that southern Hightower strange instead of homegrown.  Lyanna and by extension Cersei, Cat & Lysa--any of the women available at the time could have been matched far better than what Rickard and Hoster designed.   None of the dad designed power couples turned out that great for anyone.   

Well, Jorah had originally married into the North but his wife died. 

[Angel Eyes]

16 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Seems to me Lyanna was an age to be set up with some of our main characters, Jamie, Robert, a whole bunch of knights, Victarion Greyjoy or Oberyn Martell, even Rhaegar if Rickard had been more foresighted.   I'm not so sure Jon Arryn was the mastermind behind overthrowing the targs.  Seems to me if that's what the point of fostering your kids and marrying them off you would do a whole lot better with Tywin Lannister on your side.   Roberts' rebellion would have gone much differently had Tywin been in from the get go.  So there was more.  Lyanna was not the heir, so there was no real harm in selling that cow to that foreign farmer over yonder.  Daughters weren't worth as much as sons, but the Baratheon match was pretty well made, personalities not withstanding.  Brandon would have been married off to the Riverlands and Ned would have likely been married to a vassal.   Thank the Old gods and New that poor Ned didn't end up with bitter Barbary.  Shudder. 

Ned held the men he kept company with in high esteem.  Locally, Lyanna would have been worth much more.   Too bad Jorah went for that southern Hightower strange instead of homegrown.  Lyanna and by extension Cersei, Cat & Lysa--any of the women available at the time could have been matched far better than what Rickard and Hoster designed.   None of the dad designed power couples turned out that great for anyone.   

So why did they make them? From what we know of Lyanna's personality and how Cersei turned out, Lyanna's marriage to Robert would have likely gone very poorly. Same with Brandon and Catelyn.

[frenin]

51 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

So why did they make them? From what we know of Lyanna's personality and how Cersei turned out, Lyanna's marriage to Robert would have likely gone very poorly. Same with Brandon and Catelyn.

The only things those three have in common is that they are women and that they are highborn and that they are willfull. And that's about it.

 

[Curled Finger]

@Angel Eyes, It's true that Jorah was previously married in the North, maybe twice before he married Lynesse.  Still wanting Lyness was reaching far above his station.   I get it that he was a rare knight in the north and that could have been attractive in some novel way, but I don't get why the marriage was allowed.   The story does not sound equitable to me unless it is as it was and she was a plant of some political sort.  I don't know, Lyanna was the promising age right around the time he married Lynesse, or is my math off?  Could be.  Point only being that if Jorah strove to do better, reach higher, why not approach the most powerful man in your own region instead of the Hightowers?  We know Lynesse becomes a shady sort of connection between her family and the man she serves.   Was she always an intelligence officer?  It's a hard concept to swallow that Jorah longs for Lynesse after all he's lost for her.  That would be creepy bad.  On the other hand, Jorah is conflicted in many ways.  Maybe I am looking for too much in this connection.  

Why did the dads make the connections?  I think Tywin, as a single father, sole proprietor of immense influence and power, may have made an unfavorable impression in the North?  We know he shopped the Tullys and at least saw Johanna's conversation with Melario Martell what? finished? honored? The only other alliance shopping he did was offer a man who was once a dear friend and comrade in arms an oath of brothers, perhaps not so different from Robert's much latter.  Imagine what that did to his incredible ego, to have this treasure of a beautiful daughter and all the power, strength and money she has backing her.  If there was a child bred for success it was Cersei Lannister.  Tywin believed that his king and friend would place the same value on her.  Wow.  I wonder if the mighty Tywin didn't feel tricked and cheated and wrong done by a man he was so loyal to.  A man whose job he did capably?  Surely Aerys knew this.  Maybe Tywin's eyes weren't open to real madness in the king he served so ably or the intrigues at play for decisions made that didn't serve Hoster Tully or Jon Arryn or Rickard Stark.  Roose says he wants a peaceful land, a quiet people, but I think that's what Tywin thought he was doing.   I'm sure it was bad as it came to light in Tywin's reckoning.  Is there anything worse than to bow to a man who mocks you?  I think the fathers had to become involved because Tywin was involved solo, with no one to check him.   If you knew your assets you would protect them.  Hoster was a single parent, too.  Maybe this made them get involved mano y mano, seeing opportunity to grow?  If it has any real power you would run the negotiations yourself to check what's really in it in either direction.  We never hear that Brandon wouldn't marry Catelyn or wouldn't have wanted to.  She is said to have been a beauty.  For the life of me I cannot see much that the Riverlands can do for the North or vice versa.  Odd arrangement both ways.  

I don't think any of the matches were great, but the world changed because of the agreements between fathers and children thinking they have a say in the matter.  Ned is so good, it's not hard to imagine his sense of honor and dignity in his brothers and sister.  I doubt Rickard was a foolish man.   The Stark men aren't drawn that way.  Supposing Lyanna had to be hidden the duration because she was both a threat and threatened.   I don't think Robert would have dug finding that link in the chain between a man he loves more than his brothers.  I don't know what he might have done knowing the truth from beginning to end.   He would have either done decisive, impulsive action or only had the child killed and banished her to the North?   Supposing Rhaegar's gone and all that.  I don't think he would have killed her because of Ned.  Can't see him wanting her knowing she scorned him?  Hoster seems to have entertained the idea of sort of marrying beyond the borders to seal new alliances, but I've never been clear why exactly?   I get some of it, but not all.   Of course, he could have had the best sources for news and intelligence that he could use to arrange a consortium--a union?--that would challenge the king's power.   I have read about countries actually doing that and it doesn't always end well.  But this seems to have been a new thing, marrying afield.  

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

The only things those three have in common is that they are women and that they are highborn and that they are willfull. And that's about it.

 

And Lyanna already didn’t like Robert because of his whoring. Cersei at least came into the marriage with some desire considering she wanted to be Queen, but that got squashed when Robert said “Lyanna” on their wedding night. It then took only three-four years of Robert drinking and whoring around for Cersei to decide to sleep with Jaime and that’s how we get Joffrey.

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

@Angel Eyes, It's true that Jorah was previously married in the North, maybe twice before he married Lynesse.  Still wanting Lyness was reaching far above his station.   I get it that he was a rare knight in the north and that could have been attractive in some novel way, but I don't get why the marriage was allowed.   The story does not sound equitable to me unless it is as it was and she was a plant of some political sort.  I don't know, Lyanna was the promising age right around the time he married Lynesse, or is my math off?  Could be.  Point only being that if Jorah strove to do better, reach higher, why not approach the most powerful man in your own region instead of the Hightowers?  We know Lynesse becomes a shady sort of connection between her family and the man she serves.   Was she always an intelligence officer?  It's a hard concept to swallow that Jorah longs for Lynesse after all he's lost for her.  That would be creepy bad.  On the other hand, Jorah is conflicted in many ways.  Maybe I am looking for too much in this connection.  

Why did the dads make the connections?  I think Tywin, as a single father, sole proprietor of immense influence and power, may have made an unfavorable impression in the North?  We know he shopped the Tullys and at least saw Johanna's conversation with Melario Martell what? finished? honored? The only other alliance shopping he did was offer a man who was once a dear friend and comrade in arms an oath of brothers, perhaps not so different from Robert's much latter.  Imagine what that did to his incredible ego, to have this treasure of a beautiful daughter and all the power, strength and money she has backing her.  If there was a child bred for success it was Cersei Lannister.  Tywin believed that his king and friend would place the same value on her.  Wow.  I wonder if the mighty Tywin didn't feel tricked and cheated and wrong done by a man he was so loyal to.  A man whose job he did capably?  Surely Aerys knew this.  Maybe Tywin's eyes weren't open to real madness in the king he served so ably or the intrigues at play for decisions made that didn't serve Hoster Tully or Jon Arryn or Rickard Stark.  Roose says he wants a peaceful land, a quiet people, but I think that's what Tywin thought he was doing.   I'm sure it was bad as it came to light in Tywin's reckoning.  Is there anything worse than to bow to a man who mocks you?  I think the fathers had to become involved because Tywin was involved solo, with no one to check him.   If you knew your assets you would protect them.  Hoster was a single parent, too.  Maybe this made them get involved mano y mano, seeing opportunity to grow?  If it has any real power you would run the negotiations yourself to check what's really in it in either direction.  We never hear that Brandon wouldn't marry Catelyn or wouldn't have wanted to.  She is said to have been a beauty.  For the life of me I cannot see much that the Riverlands can do for the North or vice versa.  Odd arrangement both ways.  

I don't think any of the matches were great, but the world changed because of the agreements between fathers and children thinking they have a say in the matter.  Ned is so good, it's not hard to imagine his sense of honor and dignity in his brothers and sister.  I doubt Rickard was a foolish man.   The Stark men aren't drawn that way.  Supposing Lyanna had to be hidden the duration because she was both a threat and threatened.   I don't think Robert would have dug finding that link in the chain between a man he loves more than his brothers.  I don't know what he might have done knowing the truth from beginning to end.   He would have either done decisive, impulsive action or only had the child killed and banished her to the North?   Supposing Rhaegar's gone and all that.  I don't think he would have killed her because of Ned.  Can't see him wanting her knowing she scorned him?  Hoster seems to have entertained the idea of sort of marrying beyond the borders to seal new alliances, but I've never been clear why exactly?   I get some of it, but not all.   Of course, he could have had the best sources for news and intelligence that he could use to arrange a consortium--a union?--that would challenge the king's power.   I have read about countries actually doing that and it doesn't always end well.  But this seems to have been a new thing, marrying afield.  

Lyanna was already dead by the time Lynesse married Jorah; Lynesse was in her late teens when she met Jorah at the Tourney at Lannisport, who was already in his mid-thirties. But you’re right that it does look fishy that Lord Leyton would allow his daughter to marry the lord of a poor, minor Northman like Jorah. Still more malleable than Hoster Tully.

For Tywin, he didn’t seem to have given much thought to the alliance between his family and the Martells. Probably didn’t take it seriously.

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Lyanna was already dead by the time Lynesse married Jorah; Lynesse was in her late teens when she met Jorah at the Tourney at Lannisport, who was already in his mid-thirties. But you’re right that it does look fishy that Lord Leyton would allow his daughter to marry the lord of a poor, minor Northman like Jorah. Still more malleable than Hoster Tully.

For Tywin, he didn’t seem to have given much thought to the alliance between his family and the Martells. Probably didn’t take it seriously.

Agreed all the way around.  But I thought it was curious that Tywin continued to honor Johanna's offer to have Elia and Oberyn stay for a while.  Talk about epic bad timing.  Maybe he thought it would be good for the kids to have company?  Next thing I know, Elia is hitched to Rhaegar, what if she hadn't been available!   I dunno, there were a lot of boys and girls just ripe for the matching then.  At least Cat and Ned seemed to have a good thing together.  It's something, anyway.