NBA Playoffs 2020: Mamba Out

[Red Tiger]

8 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

LA beats the Celtics in five, if they come back. Miami takes LA in six, if they win tonight. 

Sig-bet, winner decides what the loser rocks for a month.

If LA wins, I decide. If Miami wins, you decide.

Just take the bet, don't give me your thoughts or a breakdown, because I don't care.

@RelicIs free to join this bet.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

33 minutes ago, Red Tiger said:

Sig-bet, winner decides what the loser rocks for a month.

If LA wins, I decide. If Miami wins, you decide.

Just take the bet, don't give me your thoughts or a breakdown, because I don't care.

@RelicIs free to join this bet.

Well that's not very diplomatic. We'll see if the Heat win tonight. 

[Relic]

3 hours ago, Red Tiger said:

 

@RelicIs free to join this bet.

Nah. Gun to my head I'd pick the Lakers. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

 

[Proudfeet]

6 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Do they? It's just Walker and Smart. 

In this 3 point spacing and multi position era, it's Tatum, Brown and Hayward too. Its just whether the players can double up to do the other role. I'd count LeBron towards the back court depth as well from how he plays despite his stated position too. And can you really call Danny Green a back court player despite being a nominal SG? Anyway, its about the weakest link they field there. Boston can rotate their players around without going deep into their bench.

It's just that their front court is a disaster where there is a gaping hole at center. Maybe they should do a Houston and put Hayward or Tatum there. Its moot now anyway. Boston are done. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

31 minutes ago, Proudfeet said:

In this 3 point spacing and multi position era, it's Tatum, Brown and Hayward too. Its just whether the players can double up to do the other role.

Those are all wing front court players.....

[Proudfeet]

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Those are all wing front court players.....

Brown is nominally a guard still. And who covers for Smart and Walker when they rest? And where do they play? 

Besides, just look at Danny Green and LeBron. Listed position doesn't mean much nowadays.

[Red Tiger]

Okay, now to finish it off and get Vanessa Bryant and her babies the trophy.

[Calibandar]

Hayward playing like absolute dead weight didnt help the Celtics one bit. Looking awful.

And in the end the Celtics just came up short. Every single game was close, the teams were well matched, but at the same time its also clear the Heat are just a bit better. Tatum remains inconsistent, for all his talent and all the accolades he receives, he does miss many shots most games, I feel sometimes this is glossed over because of his potential to be a superstar. He's certainly not the next Durant yet.

You cant argue with the 2 teams that made the finals here, clearly the best in each conference. Still surprised Milwaukee was dismantled so easily, but that speaks to both to their own flaws but also to the strength of this Heat squad.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

8 hours ago, Proudfeet said:

Brown is nominally a guard still. And who covers for Smart and Walker when they rest? And where do they play? 

Besides, just look at Danny Green and LeBron. Listed position doesn't mean much nowadays.

They haven't for a while, but it's worth noting Brown often plays like a four. He's really versatile of the defensive side. 

[BigFatCoward]

I'm conflicted on lebron. His play at his age is absurd, but if he loses again..... 3 from 10 is a terrible legacy for someone aspiring to be considered the greatest. 

[Proudfeet]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

They haven't for a while, but it's worth noting Brown often plays like a four. He's really versatile of the defensive side. 

Exactly. As much as it is a testament to his ability, it exposes their lack of depth there and emphasises their depth in the back court. They basically only try Wanamaker to see if it works and sit him if it doesn't. Its only Walker's defense which is worrying.

4 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

I'm conflicted on lebron. His play at his age is absurd, but if he loses again..... 3 from 10 is a terrible legacy for someone aspiring to be considered the greatest. 

Never got that argument. Making it there 10 times should be heralded. It's basically an argument that 2nd place is worse than 3rd to 30th. Aside from Dallas series which one should he have won anyway? The first GS series? I think it evens out with the second. The East being weak is not as viable now that he has made it in the West.

[Maithanet]

47 minutes ago, Proudfeet said:

Never got that argument. Making it there 10 times should be heralded. It's basically an argument that 2nd place is worse than 3rd to 30th. Aside from Dallas series which one should he have won anyway? The first GS series? I think it evens out with the second. The East being weak is not as viable now that he has made it in the West.

Agreed.  Lebron and co shouldn't have lost to Dallas, and that's the whole list.  The first GSW loss was assured once Love and Irving went down - I actually consider the effort he put forth taking two games in that series to be possibly the best playoff performance I've ever seen.  The Warriors had better players coming off the bench than the second best guy on the Cavs. 

I mean, I guess if you say Lebron going 3 for 10 then that means the Lakers lose to the Heat, which would be pretty underwhelming.  But honestly I don't expect that to happen.  The Heat are scrappy and playing well, but it's very, very hard to win a playoff series against a team that has the two best players on the court, particularly when all your main players have never been in the Finals before. 

[BigFatCoward]

1 hour ago, Proudfeet said:

 

Never got that argument. Making it there 10 times should be heralded. It's basically an argument that 2nd place is worse than 3rd to 30th. Aside from Dallas series which one should he have won anyway? The first GS series? I think it evens out with the second. The East being weak is not as viable now that he has made it in the West.

It's what Chamberlain gets hit with. Winners win. Especially in basketball where being the best player on a team has such a huge impact. 

Also, he's been building his teams for years, not getting the best out of them also falls on him as a leader. 

Does any other person who gets talked about as GOAT have a 33% finals win percentage? They all have 60%+. 

For me it's definitely a legacy issue. 

[Proudfeet]

29 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

It's what Chamberlain gets hit with. Winners win. Especially in basketball where being the best player on a team has such a huge impact. 

Also, he's been building his teams for years, not getting the best out of them also falls on him as a leader. 

Does any other person who gets talked about as GOAT have a 33% finals win percentage? They all have 60%+. 

For me it's definitely a legacy issue. 

What? Why is it Finals win percentage? Is someone who is 3/3 to 3/5 really better than 3/10? He failed to even make it to the finals 5-7 times as often. Surely that is more damning on the 60% guy? If you really want to go there, then its championship percentage. Judge them on the entire season. Finals win percentage is just ridiculous. You don't get a pass if you don't even make it there.

Obviously circumstances are different for every individual. Personally, I'd think that hammering LeBron on his failure against Dallas and Boston early on is more convincing. His first loss to the Spurs is more remarkable for even getting them that far. And you're holding that against him? Its just really lazy.

[DireWolfSpirit]

I say the Lakes sweep em so LeBron getting 4th ring negates that legacy argument.

Miami about to hit their wall.

[Red Tiger]

2 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

It's what Chamberlain gets hit with. Winners win. Especially in basketball where being the best player on a team has such a huge impact. 

Also, he's been building his teams for years, not getting the best out of them also falls on him as a leader. 

Does any other person who gets talked about as GOAT have a 33% finals win percentage? They all have 60%+. 

For me it's definitely a legacy issue. 

Magic Johnson would like a word. He also has a worse record than Larry Bird, even though most people outside of Celtic Nation think Magic is the greater player.

[Red Tiger]

One more thing. LeBron might not have the cleanest finals record, but if he gets another Finals MVP, he will be the only player outside of Jordan with more than 3. Duncan, Shaq, Magic and LeBron each have 3. He will also be the first player to get it on 3 different teams.

[Maithanet]

1 hour ago, BigFatCoward said:

Does any other person who gets talked about as GOAT have a 33% finals win percentage? They all have 60%+.

Chamberlain seems like the obvious example and there are people who consider him the GOAT.  Or at least the Greatest of his Generation, which I think is a more valuable discussion.  Chamberlain vs Jordan vs Lebron always seems like a ridiculous apples and oranges comparison, although that won't stop us from debating it. 

Quote

What? Why is it Finals win percentage? Is someone who is 3/3 to 3/5 really better than 3/10? He failed to even make it to the finals 5-7 times as often. Surely that is more damning on the 60% guy? If you really want to go there, then its championship percentage. Judge them on the entire season. Finals win percentage is just ridiculous. You don't get a pass if you don't even make it there.

Agreed, although at that point it's really just a comparison of how many rings you have.  I don't think a player is "greater" just because they hung up the sneakers as soon as they started to fade physically vs trying to win another in their twilight years.  Sometimes they even pull it off (like Duncan).

[BigFatCoward]

9 minutes ago, Red Tiger said:

Magic Johnson would like a word. He also has a worse record than Larry Bird, even though most people outside of Celtic Nation think Magic is the greater player.

5/4 or 3/2 are not 3/6.

The greatest players in all sports bring it home. Messi and ronaldo in CL finals. Federer, Nadal and Djoko all have winning record in Slam finals despite mainly playing each other. Tiger always brought it home one sunday in Majors. Brady and Montana. The list goes on. There is no sport where the 'greatest' doesn't raise their game or elevate their team when the chips are down.

So for me he suffers by comparison.