Daughter of Death

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

     What does Daughter of Death mean to you?
     I’ve got a few, all of them wacky.  My wacky theory favorite, The Daughter of Death was born from a dead mother. 
 

Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. 

I always read that as her palm was dead and black. If that’s the case was it frostbite? Or was she like Cold Hands? Ned was in a room that smells like blood and roses. I am assuming it’s the same as:

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bedof blood.

If Lyanna was in HER bed of blood. And this was a bloody birthing bed = Daughter of Death?

I am absolutely terrible at grammar, spelling, cohesive thoughts, and just words. I beg ye grammarians to rule on this. -along with HER bed, like her bed at home.

I know it’s gotta lot of holes in it. If she was dead how could she have a fever? Don’t know, I’ve never been dead before. Gared says colds like burning. I’m thinking she was dead for a while gave birth and Lyanna letting go of his hand was her giving up her hold on life.

Im not convinced it is a birthing bed. Just cause...meh, weak sauce poured on a delicious plot. Feel free to lambast me and my wacky theory. Include if you don’t think Ned is Ned or Who/Whatever at the time of the memory and later during the dream if applicable.

Also, if ya like Lyanna as the mystery knight at Harrenhal...could Lyanna be cold hands? Cold Hands saying brother! When she saw Sam because she was expecting Ned or Ben to use the weir wood door?  Yay or Nay? ...or Nayway! Lambast me my good fellows!~ Lambast!

[the Other Wolf]

4 hours ago, Eliscat said:

rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black

It was the petals that are dead and black.

4 hours ago, Eliscat said:

If she was dead how

Could she ask Ned to promise her?

 

4 hours ago, Eliscat said:

.could Lyanna be cold hands? Cold Hands saying brother!

No. Cold hands was saying brother to a NW brother.

[Roswell]

Anybody whose mother died birthing can be said to be a "child of death."  Somebody who was born from a sacrifice is a child of death.  A person who was given life in exchange for the death of another is a child of death.  Son of Death, if the baby comes out boy.  Daughter of Death if a female.  It's not complicated.  Somebody who was conceived during war time where bloodshed is taking place is a child of death.  

[Azarial]

I second the petals being black, and Lyana being alive as Ned tells us both in the dream, and when he's fully awake talking to Robert that she was alive when he arrived and died in his arms. But, Daughter of death is about Dany and it can be interpreted a few ways.

1) Her mother died before she was fully born. No idea how long her mother lived, but this meaning is hinted at in chapter one when they talk of the wolf pups.

Quote

His father tossed the antler to the side and cleansed his hands in the snow. "I'm surprised she lived long enough to whelp," he said. His voice broke the spell.

"Maybe she didn't," Jory said. "I've heard tales … maybe the bitch was already dead when the pups came."

"Born with the dead," another man put in. "Worse luck."

2) It could be reference to her father, as she saw him earlier in the HotU, and him talking about his wildfire plans. Meaning he intended to be the death of thousands of people, and his paranoia and madness was a large factor in the rebellion that killed tens of thousands of people, and was the death of their family dynasty.

3) It could be a reference to her dragon heritage, as dragons are compared to the comet in that both are said to be a flaming sword hanging over the world. Making them symbols of death. 

4) The death of her family and the people around her like Darry made her who she is, so she was created by death. Making her a figurative daughter of death.

Take your pick. Or find other connections as I know that there are more. But it is clear that this phrase is intended to be for her, not for anyone else in the story.

Now, for how the hand, and black petals link in to the story. Jon is a blue rose growing in a chink in a wall of ice filling the air with sweetness in the HotU visions. He is a man of the Nights watch, who dresses all in black, and he was just stabbed. Thus a dead black rose. Sweetness can mean lies, so his death/rebirth could expose the lie of his parentage because the prophecy about someone being reborn and fighting the Others refers to a Targaryen. His left hand could turn black, although his right will remain red. And his hair could turn white/silver from the experience as is hinted at by Theon, and his eyes could turn color, red if he's brought back with fire magic as is hinted at by descriptions of Lady Stoneheart, blue if it's ice magic, purple if it's a combination, as is hinted at by house Dayne and their link to a sword that gives off light, and likely connections to the original long night. So his looks combined with his resurrection could expose the lies surrounding him. Or Dany does this, if this is in the slayer of lies section? I don't remember the order. 

Still no link to the daughter of death that I can see though, other than both being in the same series of visions/messages from the HotU.

[TheLastWolf]

23 hours ago, Eliscat said:

What does Daughter of Death mean to you?

Arya of House Stark

Valar Morghulis 

@PrettyLittlePsycho

[mushroomshirt]

There is an excellent essay about Dany and the "daughter of death" line:

Daughter of Death: A Song of Ice and Fire’s Shakespearean Tragic Hero

(not directly relevant to the topic, but I love this series of essays about Dany's character and motivations.  They particularly discuss the events of Dance, but I think they make compelling conclusions about Dany's character and motivations generally: Untangling the Meereenese Knot)

 

 

[Targaryen Restoration]

The meaning is precise.  There is a difference between Mother Of Death and Daughter Of Death.  In the latter case, it means the deaths took place in the past before the girl was born.  That is why this person is referred to as the daughter of the death.  It matters not how the people died.  Just that they died.  

 

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

On 9/25/2020 at 7:14 PM, Azarial said:

I second the petals being black, and Lyana being alive as Ned tells us both in the dream, and when he's fully awake talking to Robert that she was alive when he arrived and died in his arms. But, Daughter of death is about Dany and it can be interpreted a few ways.

1) Her mother died before she was fully born. No idea how long her mother lived, but this meaning is hinted at in chapter one when they talk of the wolf pups.

2) It could be reference to her father, as she saw him earlier in the HotU, and him talking about his wildfire plans. Meaning he intended to be the death of thousands of people, and his paranoia and madness was a large factor in the rebellion that killed tens of thousands of people, and was the death of their family dynasty.

3) It could be a reference to her dragon heritage, as dragons are compared to the comet in that both are said to be a flaming sword hanging over the world. Making them symbols of death. 

4) The death of her family and the people around her like Darry made her who she is, so she was created by death. Making her a figurative daughter of death.

Take your pick. Or find other connections as I know that there are more. But it is clear that this phrase is intended to be for her, not for anyone else in the story.

Now, for how the hand, and black petals link in to the story. Jon is a blue rose growing in a chink in a wall of ice filling the air with sweetness in the HotU visions. He is a man of the Nights watch, who dresses all in black, and he was just stabbed. Thus a dead black rose. Sweetness can mean lies, so his death/rebirth could expose the lie of his parentage because the prophecy about someone being reborn and fighting the Others refers to a Targaryen. His left hand could turn black, although his right will remain red. And his hair could turn white/silver from the experience as is hinted at by Theon, and his eyes could turn color, red if he's brought back with fire magic as is hinted at by descriptions of Lady Stoneheart, blue if it's ice magic, purple if it's a combination, as is hinted at by house Dayne and their link to a sword that gives off light, and likely connections to the original long night. So his looks combined with his resurrection could expose the lies surrounding him. Or Dany does this, if this is in the slayer of lies section? I don't remember the order. 

Still no link to the daughter of death that I can see though, other than both being in the same series of visions/messages from the HotU.

I like it, except for the blue rose. On the biased opinion that flowers are feminine. Flowering has been used to describe a female having her first bleeding. Would Shireen be a better fit? House Florent has a crown of blue (Lapis Lazuli) flowers in their banner. Maybe a stone giant wakes from her womb? Or another blooming like Dany? 
     She does have patch face around her....Na or ja? Or Najas?

[Texas Hold Em]

On 9/26/2020 at 2:16 PM, Targaryen Restoration said:

The meaning is precise.  There is a difference between Mother Of Death and Daughter Of Death.  In the latter case, it means the deaths took place in the past before the girl was born.  That is why this person is referred to as the daughter of the death.  It matters not how the people died.  Just that they died.  

 

 

[Azarial]

2 hours ago, Eliscat said:

I like it, except for the blue rose. On the biased opinion that flowers are feminine. Flowering has been used to describe a female having her first bleeding. Would Shireen be a better fit? House Florent has a crown of blue (Lapis Lazuli) flowers in their banner. Maybe a stone giant wakes from her womb? Or another blooming like Dany? 
     She does have patch face around her....Na or ja? Or Najas?

In story the blue roses represent Lyanna and Rhaegars relationship. Jon being a blue rose at the wall, just means the product of their relationship is at the wall. These flowers are never shown in regards to anything other than Lyanna and/or Rhaegar, so it it wouldn't really make sense for it to represent anyone else. Flowering in the way linked to womanhood wouldn't be blue, so I don't really see an issue here. And the color blue is linked to royal blood. So instead of womans blood, the rose represents the royal bloodline in this case. 

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

-Flowering in the way linked to womanhood wouldn't be blue-

:sticks fingers in ears: LaLaLa can’t hear ya!

you win. I’m not mature enough to debate that

50 minutes ago, Azarial said:

In story the blue roses represent Lyanna and Rhaegars relationship. Jon being a blue rose at the wall, just means the product of their relationship is at the wall. These flowers are never shown in regards to anything other than Lyanna and/or Rhaegar, so it it wouldn't really make sense for it to represent anyone else. Flowering in the way linked to womanhood wouldn't be blue, so I don't really see an issue here. And the color blue is linked to royal blood. So instead of womans blood, the rose represents the royal bloodline in this case. 

 

[Azarial]

52 minutes ago, Eliscat said:

-Flowering in the way linked to womanhood wouldn't be blue-

:sticks fingers in ears: LaLaLa can’t hear ya!

you win. I’m not mature enough to debate that

 

haha!

I forgot the other reason it works, Bael the bard took a rose, representing a daughter, and gave a rose representing a child, that was male in the story. So it can mean either. Can't believe I forgot to include that.

[TedBear]

Dany is described as the daughter of death after "phantoms shivered through the murk", the death of Viserys, Rhaego and Rhaegar. Phantoms can be the targaryens of the past (or in my opinion the immortals themselves), Viserys' death allowed Dany to be more independent, he undermined her, she lived in the shadow of fear of his cruelty, Rhaego's death made her the mother of dragons, Rhaegar's death made her the last dragon. All these factors made Dany who she is, so she is the daughter of death. And of course it can fit with several other characters. I read "daughter of death" like "bastards grow up faster than other children."

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

11 hours ago, TedBear said:

Dany is described as the daughter of death after "phantoms shivered through the murk", the death of Viserys, Rhaego and Rhaegar. Phantoms can be the targaryens of the past (or in my opinion the immortals themselves), Viserys' death allowed Dany to be more independent, he undermined her, she lived in the shadow of fear of his cruelty, Rhaego's death made her the mother of dragons, Rhaegar's death made her the last dragon. All these factors made Dany who she is, so she is the daughter of death. And of course it can fit with several other characters. I read "daughter of death" like "bastards grow up faster than other children."

I like it. “Bastards grow faster than other children.” How do you read this? As just an expression of the hardships of being a bastard or growing strong or some other flowery prose?

[Lady Topspin]

On 9/26/2020 at 2:16 PM, Targaryen Restoration said:

The meaning is precise.  There is a difference between Mother Of Death and Daughter Of Death.  In the latter case, it means the deaths took place in the past before the girl was born.  That is why this person is referred to as the daughter of the death.  It matters not how the people died.  Just that they died.  

 

 

On 9/30/2020 at 7:41 AM, TedBear said:

Dany is described as the daughter of death after "phantoms shivered through the murk", the death of Viserys, Rhaego and Rhaegar. Phantoms can be the targaryens of the past (or in my opinion the immortals themselves), Viserys' death allowed Dany to be more independent, he undermined her, she lived in the shadow of fear of his cruelty, Rhaego's death made her the mother of dragons, Rhaegar's death made her the last dragon. All these factors made Dany who she is, so she is the daughter of death. And of course it can fit with several other characters. I read "daughter of death" like "bastards grow up faster than other children."

There must also be a good reason for the Undying to bring this up.  In addition to identity.  Daenerys already knew her family line.  She knew she is Targaryen.  It is also her heritage as well as her inheritance.  What was Aerys' (Westeros) is now hers.  Westeros passed from Aerys to Viserys to Daenerys.  She is the Princess of Dragonstone, which she inherited from Rhaegar. 

I don't quite agree with your interpretation of bastards growing up faster.  That was just a silly explanation given by the Maester to help hide Jon's age to the ignorant Winterfell folk.  Luwin must have suspected something about Jon's age.  Like he is older than Robb.