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Tyrion1991

Why Mad Queen Dany is a terrible idea

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Because a lot of people seem to think this is an amazing idea. It’s a great way to show the dangers of a charismatic leader. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. It’s just like Dune. Etc etc

However that coin landing the wrong way actually isn’t a deep and profound story. George has gone out of his way to stress that the taint of Targaryen madness is due to incest between brother and sister. This is not a problem in the real world. It is not a weakness shared by most human beings. So in effect George would be implying that any character would succeed in Danys place. Its not really a statement on corruption and power. He’s explicitly saying it’s all in the blood. Get some honest Northern blood on the throne and everything will be good with the world. Short of some silly plot twist like Dany going bad and then it turning out she wasn’t even a Targaryen there’s no way around this. It’s not any kind of trauma or wrong decision; it’s the weak blood.

Also, George is not a subtle man. He has had basically every character talk about how the Targaryens were insane nutters who brought ruin on the realm. Even characters like Barristan are wary and suspicious of Dany. She is openly accused of being insane by several characters throughout the novels. She wonders if she’s crazy and has the taint. So her taking a heel turn isn’t going to be particularly surprising. It would only be surprising because of how stupid and irrelevant it would be. It’s just as well people in the real world don’t have these insurmountable Daemons of incest blood to overcome.

Plus, unlike in Dune, Dany is not the central protagonist. Having the main protagonist turn to the dark side is profound because that’s the hero’s journey and that’s the person you are rooting for. It’s pulling the rug from under you. However, Dany is a side character. The Starks are the main POV characters by far. So if Dany takes the fall but our Stark characters have a classic heroes journey then it won’t actually have challenged the reader or tropes. George would simply have done a villains origin for a side character. One who is already highly divisive among fans. A lot of people actually want this character to fail to make way for the Starks. As an aside, this also demolishes any idea of her downfall being tragic. 

If Dany fails and the Starks succeed what does that actually prove? 

 

 

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I see you're trying to bait the Dany haters to start posting hate messages to trash her.  All this will do is cause the loyal Dany fans, of which I am one, to react accordingly.

Edited by Prince Rhaego's Soul

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It would also be easy to perceive as sexist, and we know GRRM definitely isn't sexist.

Dany being mad would mean that the only two queens in the story would be mad, and that would reinforce that old "wisdom" about how women are too sensitive to get into politics. And that would be... bad.

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I’m not even a fan of Dany and I agree that making her turn crazy would be problematic and unoriginal. But I don’t think GRRM is going to do that. The fact that Dany is questioning herself and is self aware... that’s a stark contrast (no pun intended) to Cersei, who is oblivious to the point that she thinks her dressmakers are shrinking her clothes.

A tragic downfall for Dany, to me, is the idea that she never returns to Westeros alive. Or maybe she does, but is killed in a battle at sea. And then maybe she finally does wash up on Westeros’ shore, or even on Dragonstone, like Lucerys Velaryon or Rhaenys Targaryen.

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Yeah. We already have a mad queen in the story in the form of Cersei Lannister. It is a testement to George's writing that he can make everything in Cersie's pov seem logical and well thought out to her. But we know she is losing her mind. It would be kind of redundant for Dany to go mad at this point.

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8 hours ago, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

I see you're trying to bait the Dany haters to start posting hate messages to trash her.  All this will do is cause the loyal Dany fans, of which I am one, to react accordingly.

@Tyrion1991 does that in almost every thread or post of his. Just stating the truth man.

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Mad Queen Dany would be a terrible idea - proving that genetics is destiny.

But there's nothing wrong with writing a Dany who is torn between ambition and altruism; or a Dany who comes into conflict with other sympathetic characters, like Arianne Martell or Margaery and Tommen; or a Dany who sparks off a religious and social revolution that she cannot control.

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So Dany going Mad and say I dunno, barbecuing KL, that would be stupid, what kind of hack writer/s would even think of something like that?

Dany doing for the full Fire&Blood doing whatever it takes to create her worldview, including but not limited to killing Aegon just because she's not sure he's legit and accidentally lighting the King's Landing wildfire, that is 100% possible.

Whatever happens I do believe she will become an absolutist leader with shades of tyrannical. I mean if you had dragons, wouldn't you too?

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29 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So Dany going Mad and say I dunno, barbecuing KL, that would be stupid, what kind of hack writer/s would even think of something like that?

Dany doing for the full Fire&Blood doing whatever it takes to create her worldview, including but not limited to killing Aegon just because she's not sure he's legit and accidentally lighting the King's Landing wildfire, that is 100% possible.

Whatever happens I do believe she will become an absolutist leader with shades of tyrannical. I mean if you had dragons, wouldn't you too?

I can't imagine what kind of hack writers you have in mind.

IMHO, a bigger temptation for Dany lies in being persuaded by the Red clergy that she is God's champion on earth.

Edited by SeanF

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1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So Dany going Mad and say I dunno, barbecuing KL, that would be stupid, what kind of hack writer/s would even think of something like that?

Dany doing for the full Fire&Blood doing whatever it takes to create her worldview, including but not limited to killing Aegon just because she's not sure he's legit and accidentally lighting the King's Landing wildfire, that is 100% possible.

Whatever happens I do believe she will become an absolutist leader with shades of tyrannical. I mean if you had dragons, wouldn't you too?

If George wanted to have that conversation then he wouldn’t have brought the element of madness into the equation at all. By making it so central to the character it’s impossible to separate from any judgement of what she’s doing. 

Oh, Dany does not have a problem with letting her brother die. She must be a crazy Targaryen.

Oh, Dany crucifies the masters. She must be a crazy Targaryen.

Oh, Dany starts seeing Quiarhe. She must be a crazy Targaryen.

Oh, Dany has visions in the Dothraki Sea. She must be a crazy Targaryen.

Oh, Dany believes she’s the messiah and chosen one. She must be a crazy Targaryen. 

Oh, Dany kills a good character like Arriane who calls her out. She must be a crazy Targaryen.

Oh, Dany starts burning cities down. She must be a crazy Targaryen.

Its going to shut any conversation down. There’s such an unavoidable shadow over Danys actions and motivations that you can’t neatly separate the two from her sanity. He has framed this as a superficial discussion over is she, isn’t she. Which tells me as the reader that a character without Targaryen madness would easily avoid such temptations or issues. 

Also, if you’re going to have the Starks overcome all of these problems it won’t really challenge the reader. If they assume positions of power and authority. Have Bran or Jon revealed as the true chosen one and messiah. Have one of them able to control a dragon without going Fire and Blood. Basically the Starks would be tyrannical leaders with absolute power. But to George, they have the personal qualities to be what Dany is pretending to be. George is setting Dany up as a false messiah. He’s not saying the messiah would be bad.

I think DND had the basics of George’s story but told it poorly. Hence why crazy Dany is depicted as Hitler. Why Bran ends up as King because he’s robotman. The whole Burkean conservatism that’s being advocated. George probably told them these were the points he wanted to get across. Charismatic and powerful leaders should come with a warning label. Change is dangerous. I imagine with the books he is going to obscure this much better. The sort of “ambivalence” in the rest of the novels regarding Dany and the Starks. For example he’s probably going to have Bran be really powerful like the main guy from Dune. That might explain why a council would pick him, but it would undercut any criticism he makes of an all powerful messiah saving us from ourselves. If you’ve already got a barebones narrative, it’s not really in the telling that it’s at fault. 

As to the last point. No. Why would you want the responsibility of ruling others? You underestimate my laziness. Being in that position gives other people a hold over you. You’d be surrounded by men wanting you to kill to satisfy their goals and interests. You would actually lose the ability to choose. I’d probably just enjoy being a celebrity and make loads of money on my terms with disregard and disdain for the powers that be. Why would you want some snivelling bureaucrat asking you to napalm children without so much as an explanation? People seem to forget that Dany has this option of walking away.

Edited by Tyrion1991

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@Tyrion1991WRT Arianne, I think that she and her family are far more obviously hurtling to their doom than Daenerys is.  I sympathise with the Martells a lot, but their determination to opt for war, when every legitimate enemy is dead, for reasons of revenge and ambition, is completely reckless.

i think Arianne’s death has been foreshadowed by “She burned as bright as any man, and so shall I”, but it will be a death she brings on herself.

I don’t think readers are meant to agree with Arianne when she projects her own resentment towards Quentin on to Daenerys, before concluding that the latter is to blame for Viserys’ death.  She’ll brand Dany as kinslayer and traitor, but we know that’s untrue.

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IDK what people mean by "Mad Queen Dany". If it is about burning King's Landing, I believe Cersei will do that. However, Dany is a villain in the making and anyone who can't see that at this point is in denial IMO.

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I think his views on madness are definitely critiquable, I mean he talks about people as thoroughbreds (!!!). Thats straight out of 19th century eugenics which was the genesis for scientific racism. 

I kind of just ignore all of that and say corrupted by power, it works in and out of the universe.

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18 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think his views on madness are definitely critiquable, I mean he talks about people as thoroughbreds (!!!). Thats straight out of 19th century eugenics which was the genesis for scientific racism. 

I kind of just ignore all of that and say corrupted by power, it works in and out of the universe.

The fact that GRRM is writing as a series of unreliable narrators does make it a bit understandable that he goes on about eugenics. It’s a historical philosophy which we have thankfully moved away from. The mysteriousness of magic and how it’s supposed to work gives one the benefit of the doubt.

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I don't think she's going to go "crazy" so much as she's going to do bad things thinking she's justified. My personal pet theory is that Aegon's going to take the throne whilst being a pretender and basically be a good king before Dany comes in and annihilates him for the sake of her birthright renewing the cycle of war and destruction. 

Edited by Trigger Warning

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Whether Dany will be a villain or not depends on the people she will kill. Cause the death of random characters all involved in the plot of the throne already do, and we still sympathize with them.It doesn't make any character better, but I don't think we'll have a final villain that everyone will love to hate, no one will be completely bad or completely good.

Madness is something I find ridiculous in the way it was put into this plot, but anyone can change his personality according to the experiences she lives, Dany can change his worldview and personality to something much darker, Walter White was not mad, he was a good man who gradually became a bad man, Heisenberg represents a dark side of Walter that was hidden, but has always been there, if the same thing is happening to Daenerys slowly, I will enjoy reading this.

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I assume that there is a price of using any kind of magic. After all dragons are predators and so all dragonriders could potentially become similar beasts like their dragons. Same principality applies also Starks. Or Starks who are wargs had become more wolfish than they would have been without that "gift". So I assume that price of Bran's powers will be his humanity. 

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Dany won't burn civilians. 

In the books she never crucifies the wise masters, she doesn't sack Qarth or steal gold from Yunkai, and she gives up her dragons and kingdom for peace. 

However there is something off about her character that unsettles people. Its not her direct actions because all those contextually make sense. 

But her internal dialogue is very paternalistic, she has no natural friends like Jeyne and Sansa. Messandei is like her adopted child, her romances are obsessive or abusive. She loves Drogo still, and she clings to Daario even though she knows he is a monster. 

Jorah has an unhealthy attachment to Dany, and her logic seems disquieting. If it weren't for how well she handled Quentyn and Xaro I'd even go as far to say she is socially inept. 

Overall GRRM gives her character a sense of ambiguity where you want to support her but there is always a question mark hanging on the back of your head. He himself said he loves having his readers debate a character. 

We have no clue where he will take her but it will be interesting to find out more about her fate and destiny. 

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2 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

My personal pet theory is that Aegon's going to take the throne whilst being a pretender and basically be a good king before Dany comes in and annihilates him for the sake of her birthright renewing the cycle of war and destruction. 

Isn't that like one of the most universally accepted facts about TWOW?

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