Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Aebram

A dragon at Winterfell?

Recommended Posts

In ACOK 69 (Bran VII),  Winterfell is burning while Bran is warging Summer, and we experience it through Summer's eyes (and other senses).  Then we read:

Quote

The smoke and ash clouded his eyes, and in the sky he saw a great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame.

We know that Summer sees the world in a somewhat primitive way, e.g. thinking of armor as "hardskin."  If a wolf ever saw a dragon, it would likely think of it as a big snake with wings, and with fire flowing out of its mouth horizontally (like a river), unlike normal fires that burn upwards.

So why the heck did Summer see a dragon over Winterfell?

Sure,  "the smoke and ash clouded his eyes."  And I suppose that the smoke and flames from a burning building can sometimes take familiar shapes, like clouds that sometimes remind us of animals or objects.  But Summer's not familiar with dragons.  So the smoke and flames would have to form a pretty precise resemblance for him to see that.   

I guess there are basically three possibilities.

1.  There was a dragon living somewhere at Winterfell, and it left during the fire. But no one except Summer saw it, or at least no one who lived long enough to tell anyone else.

If this is the case, it raises lots of interesting questions.  Where was it hiding? How long had it been there?  Why did it choose this time to leave? I'm somewhat new here, but I think others have suggested that a dragon under the ground might be the source of the heat that warmed Cat's bedchamber and kept the godswood from freezing.

 2.  The dragon is some sort of vision or psychic impression that found its way into the composite mind of Summer and Bran.  If so, there are questions about how, and who, and why.

 3.  Nothing to talk about here, just an image created by swirling smoke and flames.

What do you think?

Edited by Aebram
fixed typo in title

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But Dragons don't live that long. They are mortal, even if they live far past the average human life span. So I don't think that Winterfell ever had a dragon in it or the Targaryens would've surely noticed, no?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Aebram said:

In ACOK 69 (Bran VII),  Winterfell is burning while Bran is warging Summer, and we experience it through Summer's eyes (and other senses).  Then we read:

 

We know that Summer sees the world in a somewhat primitive way, e.g. thinking of armor as "hardskin."  If a wolf ever saw a dragon, it would likely think of it as a big snake with wings, and with fire flowing out of its mouth horizontally (like a river), unlike normal fires that burn upwards.

So why the heck did Summer see a dragon over Winterfell?

Sure,  "the smoke and ash clouded his eyes."  And I suppose that the smoke and flames from a burning building can sometimes take familiar shapes, like clouds that sometimes remind us of animals or objects.  But Summer's not familiar with dragons.  So the smoke and flames would have to form a pretty precise resemblance for him to see that.   

I guess there are basically three possibilities.

1.  There was a dragon living somewhere at Winterfell, and it left during the fire. But no one except Summer saw it, or at least no one who lived long enough to tell anyone else.

If this is the case, it raises lots of interesting questions.  Where was it hiding? How long had it been there?  Why did it choose this time to leave? I'm somewhat new here, but I think others have suggested that a dragon under the ground might be the source of the heat that warmed Cat's bedchamber and kept the godswood from freezing.

 2.  The dragon is some sort of vision or psychic impression that found its way into the composite mind of Summer and Bran.  If so, there are questions about how, and who, and why.

 3.  Nothing to talk about here, just an image created by swirling smoke and flames.

What do you think?

The Red Comet. There are other possibilities, but a real dragon is an extremely low one. Someone else would have noticed a dragon awaking from WF and flying around breathing flame.

Edited by Ser Leftwich

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know, that phrase perplexes me a whole bunch. I thought about it many times and came to no conclusion. Every theory about it seems to crackpoty even for me. And the fact that the issue is forgotten after two lines makes it so much more annoying.

Like, it can't be nothing right? It needs to come back or be explained in some way. Not that everything in ASOIAF needs to be explained, but if Jon suddenly sees a UFO we would need an explanation by story's end. But at the same time it's too minor, two lines and it's gone, never to be referenced again. So what the fuck?

My best guess is that it was previously a petrified dragon and Bran and the Reeds woke it from stone. Some people have theorized that this is the "winged wolf bound with stone chains" that Jojen dreamt about, and I don't entirely hate that theory. But it's still to minor an incident to be such a huge part of one of if not the major prophecy in the series, and it would also be quite weird if prophecy became true.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought it was the red comet, too, but I do enjoy the Ice Dragon theories.  Not a real dragon either way.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that this is a straight up vision that Bran is having while he is warged into Summer. Bran has managed to open his third eye while hiding in the crypts, he manages to communicate with Jon while he's all the way in the Frostfangs.

Winterfell at the end of ACoK is broken, which means that whatever secrets it has are now exposed and the dragon is the first secret that will come out of Winterfell. 

This is a version of waking a dragon from stone, no? I think that this will be directly tied to Jon once he returns to Winterfell. Bran describes Winterfell as a grey stone labyrinth and monstrous stone tree in Bran II, AGoT 8.

After Summer sees the dragon, Osha has this to say when the group reaches the surface;

"We made noise enough to wake a dragon," Osha said, "but there's no one come. The castle's dead and burned, just as Bran dreamed [snip]" (Bran VII, ACoK 69)

Enough noise to wake a dragon and the castle's dead and burned. This links directly back to Dany's dragons. Winterfell is stone and the stone is now burned, giving birth to what Bran sees through Summer's eyes. Heck, you have the smoke coming from the fire and you have a huge metaphor for salt at Winterfell with Theon's ironborn who died there.

If Jon finds out the truth about his origins at Winterfell, then he will be a dragon woken from stone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, GoldenGail3 said:

But Dragons don't live that long. They are mortal, even if they live far past the average human life span. So I don't think that Winterfell ever had a dragon in it or the Targaryens would've surely noticed, no?

I've only read FAB couple of times, but I seem to recall that there are several dragons whose whereabouts are unknown, and who disappeared recently enough that they might still be alive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

The Red Comet. There are other possibilities, but a real dragon is an extremely low one. Someone else would have noticed a dragon awaking from WF and flying around breathing flame.

That's a creative thought, but it seems unlikely to me. This happens in the very last chapter of "Clash." By that time, Summer would have seen the comet many times, so he'd be familiar with it. And there's nothing to suggest that the comet looks like a dragon; they certainly don't in our universe.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

I don't know, that phrase perplexes me a whole bunch. I thought about it many times and came to no conclusion. Every theory about it seems to crackpoty even for me. And the fact that the issue is forgotten after two lines makes it so much more annoying.

Like, it can't be nothing right? It needs to come back or be explained in some way. Not that everything in ASOIAF needs to be explained, but if Jon suddenly sees a UFO we would need an explanation by story's end. But at the same time it's too minor, two lines and it's gone, never to be referenced again. So what the fuck?

My best guess is that it was previously a petrified dragon and Bran and the Reeds woke it from stone. Some people have theorized that this is the "winged wolf bound with stone chains" that Jojen dreamt about, and I don't entirely hate that theory. But it's still to minor an incident to be such a huge part of one of if not the major prophecy in the series, and it would also be quite weird if prophecy became true.

Yup, it's a real head-scratcher for all those reasons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

Bloodraven's egg??

Interesting ... There are long-lost eggs, as well as dragons, in Weeteros' history.  Eggs require someone or something to make them hatch.  But if anyone could do that, it'd be Bloodraven.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Aebram said:

That's a creative thought, but it seems unlikely to me. This happens in the very last chapter of "Clash." By that time, Summer would have seen the comet many times, so he'd be familiar with it. And there's nothing to suggest that the comet looks like a dragon; they certainly don't in our universe.  

How many times before this has "Summer" described the Red comet to the reader? None. We don't know what the wolves think of the comet.

Someone else would have seen something like an enormous dragon flying out of WF and breathing fire. The only literal explanation is the Red Comet. Metaphorical explanations are possible, as @Alexis-something-Rose gives a review of above, but an actual dragon flying out of the ruined WF is, frankly, absurd.

Edited by Ser Leftwich

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Aebram said:

I've only read FAB couple of times, but I seem to recall that there are several dragons whose whereabouts are unknown, and who disappeared recently enough that they might still be alive.

I've also read FAB too and the dragons live for about 200 years or so? Give and take. I doubt that their are any dragons left alive or else the Targaryens would be desperately looking for them. They did all these things to get Dragons back...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I always liked the interpretation @Tze gave years ago on the learning to lead thread? I believe it was that thread. But it was a long time ago. Anyway, they pointed out that if you combine Brans vision/dream sequence (that ends with him saying he even talked to Jon) with Jons dream/vision where he talks to Bran it all lines up, and the dragon waking is Jon as a result of Bran touching his forehead to help open his third eye.

Remember Jon and Bran are both in their wolves, but Jon sees Bran as a tree as that is his spirit form, and this would mean Bran sees Jon as a dragon as that's his spirit form, similar to how Bloodraven is a crow that comes and goes from a tree. And the dragon flying away lines up with when Jons mind takes off and he sees the Wildling camp. It also would explain why Bran isn't sure he talked to Jon, as he would hear him and think about showing him the third eye, but wouldn't have 'seen Jon'. So it all fits nicely, especially when paired with all the other dragon waking symbolism of smoke and salt that others mentioned up thread. And it ends with Jon being yelled at to wake up let's not forget. 

I think Bran sees things via the comet, as it's his burning bran(d) so to speak. Or his eye in the sky, but I thought it wasn't visible over Winterfell anymore at that point in the story? But I can't say for sure. That would be my second choice for what it could be if it's still around as all of his visions line up with the comet passing, so it does seem linked to him in some way. And his abilities were linked to his fall from the tower, and that is where the dragon burst out from. So this is a strong second option for me.

I find it unlikely that an actual dragon flew out and no one anywhere in the North ever indicates seeing one, or people going missing. And when you link up the symbolism of a dragon keeping Winterfell warm, and the place getting colder and less welcoming after Jon left, it does line up nicely as a symbolic link. Think of Tyrions welcome on his way back south, and what he says about Jon, when he reacts to this. He contrasts the cold welcome here, with the warm welcome from Jon during their time together. not using those words obviously, but what he describes is what we would classify as warm and cold interactions in our world.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's a wild card here in the form of Theon Greyjoy's squire, Wex. He's mute, and just learning to read and write when we last saw him in Dance. He is the primary reason that Manderly and Glover know that Bran and Rickon are alive, since he saw them leaving Winterfell. If any dragons literally left Winterfell, then Wex saw.

Edited by Nathan Stark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, GoldenGail3 said:

I've also read FAB too and the dragons live for about 200 years or so? Give and take. I doubt that their are any dragons left alive or else the Targaryens would be desperately looking for them. They did all these things to get Dragons back...

I've seen some theories / guesses that sheepstealer or cannibal could still be around and may have taken part in the skagosi rebellion. Cannibal would be far too old for that based on what we know but Sheepstealer was young enough to make it possible. She'd be as big as Vhagar was when she died, most likely, so being around without notice or attempted capture would be quiet perplexing given the Targs like Aegon V and Aerion Brightstar.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I've seen some theories / guesses that sheepstealer or cannibal could still be around and may have taken part in the skagosi rebellion. Cannibal would be far too old for that based on what we know but Sheepstealer was young enough to make it possible. She'd be as big as Vhagar was when she died, most likely, so being around without notice or attempted capture would be quiet perplexing given the Targs like Aegon V and Aerion Brightstar.

Not just Aegon V, but Aegon IV too. He tried to conquer Dorne with wooden dragons and failed. If he heard that their was actual dragon in Westeros still, he'd put all his time and energy into trying to obtain it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Azarial said:

I always liked the interpretation @Tze gave years ago on the learning to lead thread? I believe it was that thread. But it was a long time ago. Anyway, they pointed out that if you combine Brans vision/dream sequence (that ends with him saying he even talked to Jon) with Jons dream/vision where he talks to Bran it all lines up, and the dragon waking is Jon as a result of Bran touching his forehead to help open his third eye.

Remember Jon and Bran are both in their wolves, but Jon sees Bran as a tree as that is his spirit form, and this would mean Bran sees Jon as a dragon as that's his spirit form, similar to how Bloodraven is a crow that comes and goes from a tree. And the dragon flying away lines up with when Jons mind takes off and he sees the Wildling camp. It also would explain why Bran isn't sure he talked to Jon, as he would hear him and think about showing him the third eye, but wouldn't have 'seen Jon'. So it all fits nicely, especially when paired with all the other dragon waking symbolism of smoke and salt that others mentioned up thread. And it ends with Jon being yelled at to wake up let's not forget. 

I think Bran sees things via the comet, as it's his burning bran(d) so to speak. Or his eye in the sky, but I thought it wasn't visible over Winterfell anymore at that point in the story? But I can't say for sure. That would be my second choice for what it could be if it's still around as all of his visions line up with the comet passing, so it does seem linked to him in some way. And his abilities were linked to his fall from the tower, and that is where the dragon burst out from. So this is a strong second option for me.

I find it unlikely that an actual dragon flew out and no one anywhere in the North ever indicates seeing one, or people going missing. And when you link up the symbolism of a dragon keeping Winterfell warm, and the place getting colder and less welcoming after Jon left, it does line up nicely as a symbolic link. Think of Tyrions welcome on his way back south, and what he says about Jon, when he reacts to this. He contrasts the cold welcome here, with the warm welcome from Jon during their time together. not using those words obviously, but what he describes is what we would classify as warm and cold interactions in our world.

Never thought about that. And now I will consider it one of the strongest pieces of evidence for R+L=J. Since that fucking dragon must mean something god damn it!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Never thought about that. And now I will consider it one of the strongest pieces of evidence for R+L=J. Since that fucking dragon must mean something god damn it!

FYI it also works on Jons recurring crypt dream, it lines up with other people who have dreams that seem caused by weirwoods. Jamie on the stump, Theon in the bed. I keep meaning to pull all the relevant quotes and write it up, but have never gotten around to it.  Jon calls out for his father and uncle together, we switch to Jamie expecting to see Ned, but it turns out to be Rhaegar. Then there is the feast, and Theon sees a girl splattered with gore, Jon sees a wolf splattered with gore... etc. Just pair up the key themes/phrases as the dream progresses.

Tze's theory on this was a real eye opener for me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...