Was Brynden Tully named after Brynden Rivers as an insult to House Targaryen?

[Mourning Star]

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When Meera Reed had asked him his true name, he made a ghastly sound that might have been a chuckle. "I wore many names when I was quick, but even I once had a mother, and the name she gave me at her breast was Brynden."
"I have an uncle Brynden," Bran said. "He's my mother's uncle, really. Brynden Blackfish, he's called."
"Your uncle may have been named for me. Some are, still. Not so many as before. Men forget. Only the trees remember." His voice was so soft that Bran had to strain to hear.

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

Is it possible that Brynden "Blackfish" Tully is named after Brynden "Bloodraven" Targaryen as an insult to house Targaryen?

Bloodraven was sentenced to death, and choose to take the black and join the Night's Watch when Aegon "Egg" Targaryen was appointed King by the Great Council called by Bloodraven himself.

Egg's second son, and eventual heir to follow him on the Iron Throne, Jaehaerys II Targaryen, was originally betrothed to Celia Tully.

Quote

All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love, in defiance of their father's wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief.

A Dance with Dragons - The Kingbreaker

However, Jaehaerys was in love with his sister Shaera, and she with him. Was House Tully one of the bitter enemies that could have been a friend?

Quote

In 240 AC, a year after Prince Duncan's marriage, Prince Jaehaerys and Princess Shaera each eluded their guardians and were secretly married. Jaehaerys was fifteen and Shaera fourteen at the time of their wedding. By the time the king and queen learned what had happened, the marriage had already been consummated. Aegon felt he had no choice but to accept it. Once again the king had to deal with the wounded pride and anger of the noble houses thus affronted, for Jaehaerys had been betrothed to Celia Tully, daughter of the Lord of Riverrun, and Shaera to Luthor Tyrell, the heir to Highgarden.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Aegon V

Now, the family tree of House Tully isn't exactly clear... it goes something like Medgar - Lord - Lord - Hoster -Edmure, with Celia likely being the daughter of one of the nameless Lords between Medgar and Hoster. Since the first of those was the boy Lord mentioned in Dunk and Egg, who would be the same generation as Egg, this option makes the most sense to me. It would mean that she was likely the sister of Hoster and Brynden's father. Her fate is unclear.

Might this even have played into why Hoster Tully was not at the Tourney of Harrenhall, despite the fact that he was married to a Whent?

Hoster wanted Brynden to marry Bethany Redwyn, and as it turns out, Olenna "The Queen of Thorns" Redwyn, likely the aunt of Bethany, was originally betrothed to the last of Egg's three sons, Daeron.

Brynden refused, although the reasons are unknown to us. Brynden served as a squire to Lord Darry (a family of renown Targaryen loyalists) and made a name for himself fighting against the last of the Blackfyres in the War of the Ninepenny Kings.

Naming a child as an insult isn't without precedent in A Song of Ice and Fire.

Quote

"Lady Stokeworth insists the child's name was not her doing," Grand Maester Pycelle put in. Perspiration dotted his wrinkled forehead. "Lollys's husband made the choice, she writes. This man Bronn, he . . . it would seem that he . . ."
"Tyrion," ventured Jaime. "He named the child Tyrion."
The old man gave a tremulous nod, mopping at his brow with the sleeve of his robe.
Jaime had to laugh. "There you are, sweet sister. You have been looking everywhere for Tyrion, and all the time he's been hiding in Lollys's womb."

A Feast for Crows - Jaime II

Brynden Tully was born at least 10 years after Bloodraven was sent to the Wall, and after he became Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, but before his disappearance in 252.

Brynden Tully was born 5 years after Hoster, and 3-5 years after Jaehaerys broke off his engagement to Celia and married his own sister in 240 AC... meaning Brynden was born around the same time as Aerys. Egg was still king and Bloodraven was Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

Aerys's son Rhaegar would be born at the Tragedy of Summerhall in 259 when Aegon "Egg" Targaryen died.

Brynden, Hoster, Aerys, Tywin Lannister, Steffon Baratheon, Jon Arryn, Rickard Stark, Quellon Greyjoy, and Baristan the Bold would all fight the War of the Ninepenny Kings during the brief 3 year reign of Jaehaerys. Aerys, Steffon and Tywin would become close friends. I think it is interesting the Quellon Greyjoy supplied the fleet, while the Redwyns are not mentioned... nor are the Tyrells, whom Olenna Redwyn had married into after her betrothal to Daeron was ended.

Jaehaerys would die suddenly after a short illness at the age of 37... His son Aerys would be consumed by madness and suspicion against those who would plot against him.

Aerys would be deposed by an alliance between Jon Arryn, Hoster Tully, Ned Stark (son of Rickard Stark) and the usurper Robert Baratheon. While Brynden fell out with his brother Hoster, he did serve Robert Arryn during the rebellion.

Men may forget, but family trees remember!

[Seams]

The ties created through marriages and wartime alliances and milkbrothers and baby names and mistresses and wards, etc. can be thought of as necessary recipes, I suspect. I'm not certain, but I think the recipes can represent balanced forces or fulfilled prophecies or other desirable outcomes (e.g., peace in Westeros). (Instead of a recipe, maybe you can think of it as a maester's chain.)

Aegon IV tried to assemble the recipe by taking mistresses from a range of Westeros houses representing a range of distinct qualities. Aegon V tried to put together the recipe by creating alliances through betrothals. When a father works out a betrothal and his children undermine it, we should look at the ingredients that were supposed to go into the marriage and trace where those ingredients ended up at that time as well as generations later.

With the missed marriages of Redwyne, Tyrell and Tully, House Targaryen is missing out on red (red wine), green (heirs to Garth Greenhands) and blue (river color) - all the branches of the Trident.

Celia disappears from the narrative - no one gets blue in that round.

As you point out, Olenna marries Luthor Tyrell - red and green unite but the Targaryens are not a party to the marriage.

Interesting that Hoster wants Brynden to marry a Redwyne (but Brynden refuses) and Jaime's cousin Daven Lannister was also supposed to marry a Redwyne (but Tywin instead directs Daven to a Frey marriage). Seems like the Redwynes are often dissed in the betrothal game.

If I recall correctly, Aegon V married a Blackwood. I think this explains the choice of the name Brynden for the Tully child. Off the top of my head, I would say that it's not an insult so much as a "do over" for the generation that failed to assemble the necessary recipe. "Brynden" represents the Blackwood ingredient for the (or a) recipe.

But the "Brynden" name means different things to different people. Hoster sees his brother as part of an opportunity try again for that marriage recipe that would unite blue, green and red. Or, at least, bring red into the Tully/riverland orbit. But Brynden Tully himself is an "heir" to the Brynden "Bloodraven" Blackwood way of thinking: he does not marry at all, instead playing a roll in protecting and advancing the interests of his relatives.

I suspect that the Blackwoods might represent magic as well as messengers to and from the underworld. The dead black tree full of ravens; Bloodraven as the living embodiment of the weirwood; the ability to live underground. So Brynden Tully may embody those qualities for the Tully arc or for this generation of Westeros nobles. Black fish instead of black wood. Under water instead of under ground.

 

[Lord Lannister]

Well it's a safe guess to say that Brynden Tully of the Riverlands could have been named after Brynden Rivers. As for it being a deliberate sleight against House Targaryen, who can say? The Tullys did side against the Targaryens in the rebellion, but that's circumstantial. That Brynden Rivers of the Riverlands was named Brynden indicates the name was in use well before all this as well. It could be as simple as that. 

[Canon Claude]

It really seems like a stretch to assume that House Tully would try to snub House Targaryen by naming their newborn son after an illegitimate Targaryen who served faithfully for decades only to fall out of favour when he eliminated a threat to the realm (and that's just me assuming how an average Westerosi person would see it, you cannot convince me that the smallfolk and nobles across the Seven Kingdoms genuinely felt outraged at Aenys Blackfyre's death, unethical as it was).

My point is, I doubt that Brynden Rivers was hated quite enough for the Tullys to think that his name could be a snub to House Targaryen. And if he was, why wouldn't that just backfire on House Tully? Giving their son a cursed name? That's not how snubs work at all. 

When Ellen Reyne wanted to snub House Lannister, she named her children after lost loves of Gerold Lannister's life. Names that were special to him, names that filled him with grief for the loss of those people from his life. The names being reused on Ellen's children was described by Gyldaen as daggers aimed at Gerold's heart. 

So if House Tully wanted to snub House Targaryen, they wouldn't pick the name of a guy who was hated across the entire realm. They would have named the kid after someone important to Aegon that he'd lost. Because any cursed name they choose is going to look awful for them, and if the Tully family members care about anything, it's their family reputation.

[Isobel Harper]

3 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

 

When Ellen Reyne wanted to snub House Lannister, she named her children after lost loves of Gerold Lannister's life. Names that were special to him, names that filled him with grief for the loss of those people from his life. The names being reused on Ellen's children was described by Gyldaen as daggers aimed at Gerold's heart. 

Not exactly.  Ellyn Tarbeck's daughters, Rohanne and Cyrelle, were named after women Gerold supposedly murdered.

Cyrelle Lannister had been Lady of Casterly Rock as a child, with her uncle Gerold as her regent.  One year into that regency, Cyrelle suddenly became ill and died, and it's assumed Gerold poisoned her.  Rohanne Webber mysteriously disappeared shortly after giving birth to her and Gerold's last son.

[Canon Claude]

Just now, Isobel Harper said:

Not exactly.  Ellyn Tarbeck's daughters, Rohanne and Cyrelle, were named after women Gerold supposedly murdered.

Cyrelle Lannister had been Lady of Casterly Rock as a child, with her uncle Gerold as her regent.  One year into that regency, Cyrelle suddenly became ill and died, and it's assumed Gerold poisoned her.  Rohanne Webber mysteriously disappeared shortly after giving birth to her and Gerold's last son.

That's true, my mistake. I was thinking of Rohanne and Tion, not Cyrelle. 

But that still makes sense for my point. House Tully would have to name Brynden after someone that Aegon feels either guilty about, represents his least admirable action, or someone he misses. None of those people are Brynden Rivers. He shouldn't feel guilty for getting rid of Brynden if he was really as hated as people in the forum and in the books say he was. 

[Isobel Harper]

2 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

That's true, my mistake. I was thinking of Rohanne and Tion, not Cyrelle. 

But that still makes sense for my point. House Tully would have to name Brynden after someone that Aegon feels either guilty about, represents his least admirable action, or someone he misses. None of those people are Brynden Rivers. He shouldn't feel guilty for getting rid of Brynden if he was really as hated as people in the forum and in the books say he was. 

For the most part, I think Brynden Rivers has a positive reputation in the Riverlands.  He mentions to Bran that (paraphrasing) "yes, people DO still use that name for their children."  That is, it was a trend for a while. 

Dunk notices bad rumors spreading around BR, but he also hasn't traveled deep into the Riverlands yet.  Also, the negative rumors might be amongst smallfolk in particular.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

5 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

House Tully would have to name Brynden after someone that Aegon feels either guilty about, represents his least admirable action, or someone he misses. 

Just for fun, I tried to think of who did fit that description. Brynden was born to early to be named after Aegon V's dead son Daeron. Aerion would be perfect, but the Tully's would never think of that because how would they know about Aerion's abuse of Aegon?

There aren't a lot of candidates which fit the canon limitations and Claude's standards. The closest candidate I can think of is naming their son Duncan after Aegon's eldest screw-up of a son. But that might come off as them honouring a member of the Kingsguard (and given what the Blackfish grew up to be, Duncan would have been a good name for him).

[Curled Finger]

Epic timing, I was just listening to HoW episode on Blackfish last night.  I thought it curious that Bloodraven jumped all over the glory in this little boy's connection with names.  Why would anyone simply assume someone's mother's uncle would be named for him?   Reading through upthread I wonder if Bloodraven wasn't some sort of serious local hero.  Not Jamie Lannister known, but more concentrated.  There isn't much between the Bryndens and I seriously doubt Tully's name was an insult or slight against the Targs?  Wasn't he born around the time before they thought they were marrying the heir to the throne and were unceremoniously DENIED after betrothal? The Tully's weren't angry yet, were they?   Putting the pieces of Blackwood/Tully history together, they don't seem to intersect a lot, but I think having a statesman, the big one, from your hood, would be a matter of great pride.  Bloodraven was Hand of the King for a very long time.  The Blackwoods are a prominent family in the Riverlands.  When I hear bits of history between the Blackwoods and Brackens I get the feeling they pulled a sort of backward Manderly move.  Who knows?  Perhaps Benjen Stark was named for or in tribute to Bloody Benjicot Blackwood?  The Blackfish is grumpy and straight forward and seems like a great uncle and talented military mind.  There is no woo woo around him, but he still works a type of magic.  Perhaps one of Blackfish's great hidden talents is intel gathering?  That would be a cool tie in.  I think Brynden Tully's name was a sort of Main Street celebration of a close hero.  

[Floki of the Ironborn]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Epic timing, I was just listening to HoW episode on Blackfish last night.  I thought it curious that Bloodraven jumped all over the glory in this little boy's connection with names.  Why would anyone simply assume someone's mother's uncle would be named for him?   Reading through upthread I wonder if Bloodraven wasn't some sort of serious local hero.  Not Jamie Lannister known, but more concentrated.  There isn't much between the Bryndens and I seriously doubt Tully's name was an insult or slight against the Targs?  Wasn't he born around the time before they thought they were marrying the heir to the throne and were unceremoniously DENIED after betrothal? The Tully's weren't angry yet, were they?   Putting the pieces of Blackwood/Tully history together, they don't seem to intersect a lot, but I think having a statesman, the big one, from your hood, would be a matter of great pride.  Bloodraven was Hand of the King for a very long time.  The Blackwoods are a prominent family in the Riverlands.  When I hear bits of history between the Blackwoods and Brackens I get the feeling they pulled a sort of backward Manderly move.  Who knows?  Perhaps Benjen Stark was named for or in tribute to Bloody Benjicot Blackwood?  The Blackfish is grumpy and straight forward and seems like a great uncle and talented military mind.  There is no woo woo around him, but he still works a type of magic.  Perhaps one of Blackfish's great hidden talents is intel gathering?  That would be a cool tie in.  I think Brynden Tully's name was a sort of Main Street celebration of a close hero.  

I buy this too. Regardless of how I feel about his ethics, Bloodraven was a decorated and accomplished military leader, as well as an efficient Hand of the King. He'd be pretty popular in the Riverlands, just look at how quickly they joined his cause during the Second Blackfyre Rebellion.

On a side note, I really wish there had been more old gods-worshipping houses south of the Neck. The Blackwoods feel way too singled-out if they're the single non-Andal house. It would have been cool to have people like the Royces also still keep the old gods, given how faithful they are to the Nights Watch and bronze armour. 

[Curled Finger]

21 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

I buy this too. Regardless of how I feel about his ethics, Bloodraven was a decorated and accomplished military leader, as well as an efficient Hand of the King. He'd be pretty popular in the Riverlands, just look at how quickly they joined his cause during the Second Blackfyre Rebellion.

On a side note, I really wish there had been more old gods-worshipping houses south of the Neck. The Blackwoods feel way too singled-out if they're the single non-Andal house. It would have been cool to have people like the Royces also still keep the old gods, given how faithful they are to the Nights Watch and bronze armour. 

Amen, Brother.  The Riverlands is a weird place, a place between everything.  Sort of like our midwest, here in the US.   That's a place of more grass roots concerns and deep pride.  They treasure their vets.  That episode I was listening to spoke of all these accomplishments we don't actually know about that Tully was famous for.  Maybe Brynden took a page from his namesake and wanted to be a brilliant commander?   

I get to a real 1st Men house like the Blackwoods and I get to thinking nothing is by chance.   We read they were exiled and some of us believe they were the Warg Kings.  Then we hear how much prestige they actually have in their new home.  I always thought the move was a whole lot less like Manderly or Nymeria, that maybe the Blackwoods had to get closer to the God's Eye--I don't know, it's not fully formed, but Old Gods play in to that scenario like no one's business.   They still have close ties in the North, as apparently the Royce do.  Let me know when you figure it out, Man.   The magic in this tale is fascinating.  

[broken one]

12 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Is it possible that Brynden "Blackfish" Tully is named after Brynden "Bloodraven" Targaryen as an insult to house Targaryen?

 

An insult? Rivers shook the whole Westeros, he was bigest player for years. The fact he was forced to join NW also does not harm his legend, he did not get there because of robbery or rape. He was also 50% Blackwood, so I guess he is sort of hero in the Riverlands.

 

[TheLastWolf]

1 hour ago, broken one said:

An insult? Rivers shook the whole Westeros, he was bigest player for years. The fact he was forced to join NW also does not harm his legend, he did not get there because of robbery or rape. He was also 50% Blackwood, so I guess he is sort of hero in the Riverlands.

 

Yep

The Blackfish was named after Bloodraven as an honor, not insult.

Spoiler

+++…or it is at the bottom of the Red Fork. Remember Bloodraven telling Bran that his grand uncle was probably named after him, BRYNDEN. Bloodraven was from the riverlands and could’ve entrusted the egg to Hoster and Brynden’s father, Lord Tully to take it with him to the afterlife. After all, Brynden RIVERS knew that something like Summerhall would happen if it was left in the hands of foolish wannabe dragons. Why? Even the Blackfish could’ve been told the secret…or could’ve found the egg while escaping

 

[Mourning Star]

7 hours ago, broken one said:

An insult? Rivers shook the whole Westeros, he was bigest player for years. The fact he was forced to join NW also does not harm his legend, he did not get there because of robbery or rape. He was also 50% Blackwood, so I guess he is sort of hero in the Riverlands.

 

Where do you get this impression?

 in the days when the Seven Kingdoms were ruled in all but name by the bastard sorcerer men called Bloodraven.

I certainly never got the impression anyone liked Bloodraven, let alone called him a hero! 

He was sent to the Wall for breaking an oath, violating guest right, and kinslaying! It really doesn't get any worse.

[Mourning Star]

6 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Yep

The Blackfish was named after Bloodraven as an honor, not insult.

An honor to whom? The Guy on the Wall? The King who exiled him? I really just don't see it, but maybe it's me.

[James Steller]

3 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

An honor to whom? The Guy on the Wall? The King who exiled him? I really just don't see it, but maybe it's me.

Given the added presence of Northern culture thanks to Aly Blackwood, maybe it’s a last gasp of Nights Watch support? That’s a reach, though. If I come up with something better, I’ll post it later.

[Mourning Star]

14 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

It really seems like a stretch to assume that House Tully would try to snub House Targaryen by naming their newborn son after an illegitimate Targaryen who served faithfully for decades only to fall out of favour when he eliminated a threat to the realm (and that's just me assuming how an average Westerosi person would see it, you cannot convince me that the smallfolk and nobles across the Seven Kingdoms genuinely felt outraged at Aenys Blackfyre's death, unethical as it was).

My point is, I doubt that Brynden Rivers was hated quite enough for the Tullys to think that his name could be a snub to House Targaryen. And if he was, why wouldn't that just backfire on House Tully? Giving their son a cursed name? That's not how snubs work at all. 

When Ellen Reyne wanted to snub House Lannister, she named her children after lost loves of Gerold Lannister's life. Names that were special to him, names that filled him with grief for the loss of those people from his life. The names being reused on Ellen's children was described by Gyldaen as daggers aimed at Gerold's heart. 

So if House Tully wanted to snub House Targaryen, they wouldn't pick the name of a guy who was hated across the entire realm. They would have named the kid after someone important to Aegon that he'd lost. Because any cursed name they choose is going to look awful for them, and if the Tully family members care about anything, it's their family reputation.

I never meant to suggest anyone was trying to snub Bloodraven... how does that even make sense?

Bloodraven was very clearly feared and hated long before he killed Aenys, Dunk and Egg make that quite clear.

The snub is to Egg.

All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love, in defiance of their father's wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief.

Tully is one of the bitter enemies made instead of a fast friend... that is why they would want to snub Egg.

Bloodraven was a threat to Egg's legitimacy, just like the Blackfyres.

[Mourning Star]

14 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

For the most part, I think Brynden Rivers has a positive reputation in the Riverlands.  He mentions to Bran that (paraphrasing) "yes, people DO still use that name for their children."  That is, it was a trend for a while. 

Dunk notices bad rumors spreading around BR, but he also hasn't traveled deep into the Riverlands yet.  Also, the negative rumors might be amongst smallfolk in particular.

I think people name kids after the person in power to try and curry favor (like Rhaegar Frey, or all those Walders).

So when Bloodraven ruled Westeros in all but name, it makes sense there would have been kids named after him.

But after he was exiled? Not so much.

[Mourning Star]

12 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Wasn't he born around the time before they thought they were marrying the heir to the throne and were unceremoniously DENIED after betrothal? The Tully's weren't angry yet, were they?   

The timing:

Bloodraven Exiled (and Egg becomes King) in 233

Jaehaerys breaks off his engagement with Celia in 240

Brynden Tully is born 243-245

[Mourning Star]

11 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

I buy this too. Regardless of how I feel about his ethics, Bloodraven was a decorated and accomplished military leader, as well as an efficient Hand of the King. He'd be pretty popular in the Riverlands, just look at how quickly they joined his cause during the Second Blackfyre Rebellion.

Bloodraven certainly was an accomplished military commander... but efficient Hand? I guess that comes down to how you judge.

It sure seems like the Kingdom did pretty terribly under his rule, and I never got the impression anywhere that he was thought of or remembered with any sort of love or adoration.

It always sounded a lot more like a reign of terror than a local hero making good, at least to me.

Also, the second Blackfyre was put down in the Riverlands, but the Tully's are noticeably absent from both Whitewalls and Bloodraven's army (which was made up of Crownland and Riverland houses). The world book does say that the Tullys remained loyal tot the Targaryens through the Blackfyre rebellions, and that makes sense if Egg betrothed his son to Celia Tully... it is only after this is broken off that the Tullys would have felt wronged... and despite Baristan's quote (below) we don't know what the fallout from the Tullys really was.

And because that unlikely monarch had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief.