Was Brynden Tully named after Brynden Rivers as an insult to House Targaryen?

[Curled Finger]

4 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

The timing:

Bloodraven Exiled (and Egg becomes King) in 233

Jaehaerys breaks off his engagement with Celia in 240

Brynden Tully is born 243-245

Thankee kindly for the dates.   I still don't think the naming had anything to do with the main Targs.  

[Nittanian]

23 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I still don't think the naming had anything to do with the main Targs.  

That's my assumption as well. IIRC, the Blackfish debuts in A Game of Thrones (1996) and Bloodraven is first mentioned in The Sworn Sword (2003), so a connection would presumably be a retcon.

[Mourning Star]

12 minutes ago, Nittanian said:

That's my assumption as well. IIRC, the Blackfish debuts in A Game of Thrones (1996) and Bloodraven is first mentioned in The Sworn Sword (2003), so a connection would presumably be a retcon.

Not a retcon, nothing was changed (edit: I'm not sure I correctly interpreted the use of the term here... it is new information adding a new angle, just not a substantive change to anything we knew), just classic GRRM gardening style writing...

The connection is even raised in the text explicitly:

"I have an uncle Brynden," Bran said. "He's my mother's uncle, really. Brynden Blackfish, he's called."
"Your uncle may have been named for me. Some are, still. Not so many as before. Men forget. Only the trees remember." His voice was so soft that Bran had to strain to hear.

[Curled Finger]

4 hours ago, Nittanian said:

That's my assumption as well. IIRC, the Blackfish debuts in A Game of Thrones (1996) and Bloodraven is first mentioned in The Sworn Sword (2003), so a connection would presumably be a retcon.

Likely.  I'm not sure how the name is a slam other than what is outlined in this discussion.  Just wouldn't have occurred to me.  

[TheLastWolf]

15 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

An honor to whom? The Guy on the Wall? The King who exiled him? I really just don't see it, but maybe it's me.

I'll try to explain by comparing BR to Tywin.

Both are unethical and immoral when it comes to war and politics. BR used sorcery and assasins while Tywin used everyone and everything. Kind of like Machiavelli and Chanakya. The end justifies the means stuff. I don't agree with their ways, but we have to accept that they were ruthlessly efficient at what they did best. 

If there was no BR, Targs would have ended with Aegon IV. Similarly Lannisters wouldn't have come to power if not for Tywin. 

Both are/were not beloved by smallfolk like Loras is/was. But they were feared and even respected. Only Kings Landers hated him for the Sack. Haters were enemies alone.

So when Stokeworths (Lollys and Bronn) try to give a powerful name (Tywin) to their son, Cersei is aghast as there are a hundred fathers to that child so it ends up with the Imp's name. Brynden could have been named as a powerful name for the BF by Hoster Tully's dad.

All this is futile if BR was wrong about BF being named after him (he said probably only). But since both are Riverlanders, I think not. Tullys always leaned towards Blackwoods in their conflict against Brackens after all.

[Mourning Star]

7 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

I'll try to explain by comparing BR to Tywin.

Both are unethical and immoral when it comes to war and politics. BR used sorcery and assasins while Tywin used everyone and everything. Kind of like Machiavelli and Chanakya. The end justifies the means stuff. I don't agree with their ways, but we have to accept that they were ruthlessly efficient at what they did best. 

If there was no BR, Targs would have ended with Aegon IV. Similarly Lannisters wouldn't have come to power if not for Tywin. 

Both are/were not beloved by smallfolk like Loras is/was. But they were feared and even respected. Only Kings Landers hated him for the Sack. Haters were enemies alone.

So when Stokeworths (Lollys and Bronn) try to give a powerful name (Tywin) to their son, Cersei is aghast as there are a hundred fathers to that child so it ends up with the Imp's name. Brynden could have been named as a powerful name for the BF by Hoster Tully's dad.

All this is futile if BR was wrong about BF being named after him (he said probably only). But since both are Riverlanders, I think not. Tullys always leaned towards Blackwoods in their conflict against Brackens after all.

I simply do not think I agree...

Bloodraven caused the Blackfyre Rebellions, both instigating with his feud with Bittersteal, and literally by being the one to initiate the conflict sending the Kingsguard after Daemon. I think it's probable that Bloodraven called the Great Council in the hopes of seating himself on the Iron Throne.

It's not just Kings Landing that hates Tywin for the sack either... what about Dorne? This is getting off topic anyway, but Tywin brought the Mannisters to power over the bloody corpses of the Targaryen children.

It's not that I don't understand the idea that Bloodraven was a ruthless but effective leader from the Iron Throne, but the picture we see of that in Dunk and Egg is not of a successful and happy realm. At no time do I get the impression Bloodraven is or was well loved, and I think there is a pretty strong case to be made using the text against "the ends justify the means" mentality.

Is it possible that is just because we didn't see into the Riverlands, I guess? But it seems very odd to me that you would name a baby after an exile as a compliment more than a dig at the one who exiled him.

We know the Targaryen's spurned the Tullys and there were repercussions, but we don't know what. I think this is an interesting detail that fits, but obviously it is all speculation.

 

[Lollygag]

As others have said in this thread, I'm also more inclined to look North and the Old Gods, though one can wonder if grievances with the Targs and connections to the Blackwoods may have something to do with this.

Bloodraven is a bastard Blackwood and it's implied that the Starks chased out the Blackwoods and sort of stole their birthright of the wolfswood. Brynden sounds like a form of Brandon. We now have Brynden of the Blackwoods (who have the dead white weirwood) and Brandon of the Starks who worship Whitewoods in the cave. It feels significant though I can't say why.

So in-story, we have the Tullys naming one of their kids after Brynden (again, it sounds like a form of Brandon), intermarrying with the Whents (likely arranged by Brynden's father) who are traditionally deeply devoted to the NW of which Bloodraven eventually became LC, and then marrying into the Starks and siding with the North all while BR is up to *mystery stuff*.

Then there's the Bran parallels and the weirwood throne of Robert Tully Arryn. Sansa as LF's daughter is now heir to Harrenhal and the God's Eye and also happens to have a Whent grandmother. If Edmure dies without a child, Riverrun likely goes to Catelyn's kids - Stoneheart will make sure of it. An awful amount of coincidence, no?

AGOT Bran VI

"Who do you think sends the wind, if not the gods?" She seated herself across the pool from him, clinking faintly as she moved. Mikken had fixed iron manacles to her ankles, with a heavy chain between them; she could walk, so long as she kept her strides small, but there was no way for her to run, or climb, or mount a horse. "They see you, boy. They hear you talking. That rustling, that's them talking back."

"What are they saying?"

"They're sad. Your lord brother will get no help from them, not where he's going. The old gods have no power in the south. The weirwoods there were all cut down, thousands of years ago. How can they watch your brother when they have no eyes?"

Bran had not thought of that. It frightened him. If even the gods could not help his brother, what hope was there? Maybe Osha wasn't hearing them right. He cocked his head and tried to listen again. He thought he could hear the sadness now, but nothing more than that.

Perhaps BR wants to correct this by giving the Starks power over the region with includes the God's Eye?

[Mourning Star]

12 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

As others have said in this thread, I'm also more inclined to look North and the Old Gods, though one can wonder if grievances with the Targs and connections to the Blackwoods may have something to do with this.

Bloodraven is a bastard Blackwood and it's implied that the Starks chased out the Blackwoods and sort of stole their birthright of the wolfswood. Brynden sounds like a form of Brandon. We now have Brynden of the Blackwoods (who have the dead white weirwood) and Brandon of the Starks who worship Whitewoods in the cave. It feels significant though I can't say why.

So in-story, we have the Tullys naming one of their kids after Brynden (again, it sounds like a form of Brandon), intermarrying with the Whents (likely arranged by Brynden's father) who are traditionally deeply devoted to the NW of which Bloodraven eventually became LC, and then marrying into the Starks and siding with the North all while BR is up to *mystery stuff*.

Then there's the Bran parallels and the weirwood throne of Robert Tully Arryn. Sansa as LF's daughter is now heir to Harrenhal and the God's Eye and also happens to have a Whent grandmother. If Edmure dies without a child, Riverrun likely goes to Catelyn's kids - Stoneheart will make sure of it. An awful amount of coincidence, no?

AGOT Bran VI

"Who do you think sends the wind, if not the gods?" She seated herself across the pool from him, clinking faintly as she moved. Mikken had fixed iron manacles to her ankles, with a heavy chain between them; she could walk, so long as she kept her strides small, but there was no way for her to run, or climb, or mount a horse. "They see you, boy. They hear you talking. That rustling, that's them talking back."

"What are they saying?"

"They're sad. Your lord brother will get no help from them, not where he's going. The old gods have no power in the south. The weirwoods there were all cut down, thousands of years ago. How can they watch your brother when they have no eyes?"

Bran had not thought of that. It frightened him. If even the gods could not help his brother, what hope was there? Maybe Osha wasn't hearing them right. He cocked his head and tried to listen again. He thought he could hear the sadness now, but nothing more than that.

Perhaps BR wants to correct this by giving the Starks power over the region with includes the God's Eye?

Egg's wife was a Blackwood as well, but I'm not sure this explains the naming (especially considering the timing of it) of Brynden.

It is interesting that they mention all the weirwoods being cut down thousands of years ago when we know that wasn't the case. God's Eye and the Blackwoods spooky dead tree aside, Melisandre just burned the Godswood of Stormsend, Riverrun has a weirwood, Harrenhall, oddly enough, has a weirwood despite being only 300 years old and having been burned so badly the towers melted, and Highgarden has three!

The Blackfish was named Brynden while Bloodraven was serving as Lord Commander on the Wall, before his disappearance, so I have a hard time thinking it was caused by him.

Also, I am highly suspicious of the idea that Bloodraven wants to help anyone but himself!

I suspect Edmure will survive, but if he does not the inheritance of Riverrun is a great question.

[broken one]

On 9/30/2020 at 4:24 PM, Mourning Star said:

Where do you get this impression?

 in the days when the Seven Kingdoms were ruled in all but name by the bastard sorcerer men called Bloodraven.

I certainly never got the impression anyone liked Bloodraven, let alone called him a hero! 

He was sent to the Wall for breaking an oath, violating guest right, and kinslaying! It really doesn't get any worse.

I took the impression reading knight of the 7 kingdoms, woiaf and asoiaf. the guy kept the iron throne for few targaryen kings, extinguished two grave rebelions and one not so serious. he was talented politician and warrior. when sent to the wall he was allowed to keep the dark sister, what do you think it means? cannot remember what oath did he break, I know he exeeded his power of kings hand, but the condemnation and sending to the wall might have been set up just for Egg to save his face.  Dim peasants and hedge knights may spit at his name and talk about sorcery but I guess historians/maesters value his historical role and lords admire him, especially in the riverlands.

 

[Lollygag]

7 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Egg's wife was a Blackwood as well, but I'm not sure this explains the naming (especially considering the timing of it) of Brynden.

It is interesting that they mention all the weirwoods being cut down thousands of years ago when we know that wasn't the case. God's Eye and the Blackwoods spooky dead tree aside, Melisandre just burned the Godswood of Stormsend, Riverrun has a weirwood, Harrenhall, oddly enough, has a weirwood despite being only 300 years old and having been burned so badly the towers melted, and Highgarden has three!

The Blackfish was named Brynden while Bloodraven was serving as Lord Commander on the Wall, before his disappearance, so I have a hard time thinking it was caused by him.

Also, I am highly suspicious of the idea that Bloodraven wants to help anyone but himself!

I suspect Edmure will survive, but if he does not the inheritance of Riverrun is a great question.

Oh yeah, Egg's wife was a Blackwood. Sort of wondering if that Dunk and Egg story in the North might be a bit spoilery for the main books if released at this point.

For all of the weirwoods being cut down, I always took that to mean only the wild ones though

TWOW spoilers

Spoiler

after reading the TWOW chapters in the Stormlands, I'm now thinking this is just an exaggeration of an imperfect purge of weirwoods sort like how English uses an exaggerated "all" in place of a vast majority with only a few exceptions.

I have no problem with Brynden being named for BR. In the North and with the Whents, the NW is revered and Brynden's father likely arranged Hoster's marriage to Minisa Whent. We don't know why BR was sent to the Wall, but we've already seen how folks end up there after not doing anything wrong, being in the wrong place, being the fall guy, whatnot. Then there's the local guy true to his roots (haha) who made it big thing.

I don't doubt BR has selfish motives as everyone does, but GRRM's characters are rarely so simple. If you read Bran's chapters more carefully, you'll pick up that BR seems a bit disassociated and like a victim or a sacrifice. I'm of mind that the 3EC is maybe working through BR, but they are separate beings. If you reread Bran's conversations with the 3EC and his conversations with BR, they don't sound alike at all.

Hope Edmure survives as I like him, but I'm getting bad vibes.

 

[Mourning Star]

49 minutes ago, broken one said:

I took the impression reading knight of the 7 kingdoms, woiaf and asoiaf. the guy kept the iron throne for few targaryen kings, extinguished two grave rebelions and one not so serious. he was talented politician and warrior. when sent to the wall he was allowed to keep the dark sister, what do you think it means? cannot remember what oath did he break, I know he exeeded his power of kings hand, but the condemnation and sending to the wall might have been set up just for Egg to save his face.  Dim peasants and hedge knights may spit at his name and talk about sorcery but I guess historians/maesters value his historical role and lords admire him, especially in the riverlands.

 

This is a fair take, I suppose I was being a little dramatic... although I stand by the impression I got that he was never a well loved figure.

He promised safe passage to the Blackfyre he executed, that's oath breaking, kinslaying, and guest right all in one fell swoop! It's hard for me to give him credit for putting down the Blackfyre rebellions when he is the one who started them.

Keeping Dark Sister is a good point, I hope we learn more about what happened there, and what became of her. I expect there is a lot left unsaid so far about the Great Council and the events surrounding it.

 

[Mourning Star]

58 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I don't doubt BR has selfish motives as everyone does, but GRRM's characters are rarely so simple. If you read Bran's chapters more carefully, you'll pick up that BR seems a bit disassociated and like a victim or a sacrifice. I'm of mind that the 3EC is maybe working through BR, but they are separate beings. If you reread Bran's conversations with the 3EC and his conversations with BR, they don't sound alike at all.

I find it highly unlikely that Bloodraven is the three eyed crow. On that we seem to agree, although I tend to think he's the closest thing to an arch villain we are likely to see.

58 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Hope Edmure survives as I like him, but I'm getting bad vibes.

Haha fair enough!

 

On another note about the Blackwoods, it's hard not to wonder how their Weirwood died... but I also wonder how it is so large if they were chased south by the Starks, and the Weirwood in Winterfell predates the castle and the founding of house Stark, but isn't nearly that size... perhaps this is tied to why they do or don't grow in the wild? I'm not really sure.

[Bowen 747]

@Mourning Star

The Tullys are an ambitious lot but I do not think they have any hate towards Brynden Rivers.  And if they do, they certainly would not name a son of the house after him. 

[Curled Finger]

11 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Oh yeah, Egg's wife was a Blackwood. Sort of wondering if that Dunk and Egg story in the North might be a bit spoilery for the main books if released at this point.

For all of the weirwoods being cut down, I always took that to mean only the wild ones though

TWOW spoilers

  Hide contents

after reading the TWOW chapters in the Stormlands, I'm now thinking this is just an exaggeration of an imperfect purge of weirwoods sort like how English uses an exaggerated "all" in place of a vast majority with only a few exceptions.

I have no problem with Brynden being named for BR. In the North and with the Whents, the NW is revered and Brynden's father likely arranged Hoster's marriage to Minisa Whent. We don't know why BR was sent to the Wall, but we've already seen how folks end up there after not doing anything wrong, being in the wrong place, being the fall guy, whatnot. Then there's the local guy true to his roots (haha) who made it big thing.

I don't doubt BR has selfish motives as everyone does, but GRRM's characters are rarely so simple. If you read Bran's chapters more carefully, you'll pick up that BR seems a bit disassociated and like a victim or a sacrifice. I'm of mind that the 3EC is maybe working through BR, but they are separate beings. If you reread Bran's conversations with the 3EC and his conversations with BR, they don't sound alike at all.

Hope Edmure survives as I like him, but I'm getting bad vibes.

 

You know there are ideas that Aegon and Bloodraven studied prophecies together.  Could be Rhaegar wasn't the first prince to ponder The Prince That Was Promised.  We know Egg sent all over the world for magicians or wise folk who might help him hatch dragons.  He and Bloodraven could have been studying full on blood magic for all we know.  With that in mind Bloodraven was always destined to go north with a sword that would actually protect him.  Of course none of this excuses Bloodraven's brutal actions, but if a Maester 90 years later touts his laurels (as well as the rumors and intrigues surrounding his vast intelligence network) all we can really be sure of is that he left an indelible mark on the history and politics of Westeros.  The 1st Fed.  I don't know that there is any real meat on that bone other than Rhaegar and Aegon's search for waking dragons from stone.   But it the idea lends itself to examining Bloodraven and Egg's real relationship and any magical motives they might have had.  Isn't Egg the nut who wanted Dancing Bears to keep the smallfolk amused?  Or did he welcome a woods witch, possible COTF, to his table with a daughter in law that cost him mightily?   Apologies if he isn't the one, I only recall he was a tentative sort of king for the nobility.  It's unlikely that Bloodraven wasn't developing every talent he had from sword play to archery to politics and war and intelligence--why not the magic ability he surely knew he possessed?  Bran isn't the only magic character at play here, for all the protestation there is a great deal of magic in this story.  It's just really well written instead of being incredible.  That magic system of GRRM's is a really interesting and probably unknowable thing.  You aren't the 1st reader to make those connections about the conversations with Bloodraven in the cave.  I wish I could recommend a good one, but I'm sure they are all archived by now, but I hope you can find some of the essays and topics because it is thought provoking stuff.  Good call.  The bad vibes if probably a good call, too.  It's safer to hate them all.  

[The Map Guy]

I don't think there is a historical narrative reason why Brynden Tully was named after Brynden Rivers.

But there will be a thematical comparison between them two in post-TWOW discussions: Brynden Tully vs. Brynden Rivers. Uncle vs. Uncle.

When Meera Reed had asked him his true name, he made a ghastly sound that might have been a chuckle. "I wore many names when I was quick, but even I once had a mother, and the name she gave me at her breast was Brynden."
"I have an uncle Brynden," Bran said. "He's my mother's uncle, really. Brynden Blackfish, he's called."
"Your uncle may have been named for me. Some are, still. Not so many as before. Men forget. Only the trees remember." His voice was so soft that Bran had to strain to hear.
{Bran III ADWD}

This ADWD passage is setting up two BIG events in TWOW, one in the beginning and one in the end.

Also this line,
Your uncle may have been named for me. Some are, still. Not so many as before. Men forget. Only the trees remember.
is a secret message about Uncle Benjen, how he has been renamed/reborn for Bloodraven.

FYI ... Uncle Blackfish is Bran's great(?)-uncle. Uncle Bloodraven is Meera's something(?)-uncle. They are all distant-uncles that share some DNA.
And Uncle Benjen shares 50% DNA with Bran and Meera.

[Mourning Star]

1 hour ago, The Map Guy said:

FYI ... Uncle Blackfish is Bran's great(?)-uncle. Uncle Bloodraven is Meera's something(?)-uncle. They are all distant-uncles that share some DNA.
And Uncle Benjen shares 50% DNA with Bran and Meera.

I'm sorry... but what?

Blackfish is Bran's mother's uncle, or his greatuncle, ok.

What makes you think Bloodraven is related to Meera?

Bloodraven is Egg's greatuncle, his father's legitimized half uncle. 

They are all what? I don't see any connection between Brynden Tully and Bloodraven genetically... nor between Meera and anyone you named.

[The Map Guy]

On 10/2/2020 at 10:31 AM, Mourning Star said:

What makes you think Bloodraven is related to Meera?

I think a dozen eyes just rolled after reading this lol.
Anyways it is because she is a secret-Targ. No one ever talks about it, but they stopped denying it either. Anyways she will be the most important character in ADOS.

On 10/2/2020 at 10:31 AM, Mourning Star said:

I don't see any connection between Brynden Tully and Bloodraven genetically

No not genetically. There will be a storyline with Brynden Tully & a pit in the beginning of TWOW, and there will be a storyline with Brynden Rivers & a pit in the end of TWOW. Its quite clever what GRRM is doing as the forums will invite Brynden/Brynden comparisons after reading the book, if the book ever comes out.

[TheLastWolf]

8 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Anyways it is because she is a secret-Targ. No one ever talks about it, but they stopped denying it either. Anyways she will be the most important character in ADOS.

Everyone is a secret targaryen, mate. Or haven't you heard? 

And Patchface is the most important character in ADOS. He is Azor Azhai and the NK. Red Rahloo's chosen one. 

[Mourning Star]

On 10/3/2020 at 5:22 PM, The Map Guy said:

I think a dozen eyes just rolled after reading this lol.
Anyways it is because she is a secret-Targ. No one ever talks about it, but they stopped denying it either. Anyways she will be the most important character in ADOS.

No not genetically. There will be a storyline with Brynden Tully & a pit in the beginning of TWOW, and there will be a storyline with Brynden Rivers & a pit in the end of TWOW. Its quite clever what GRRM is doing as the forums will invite Brynden/Brynden comparisons after reading the book, if the book ever comes out.

lol bold