Does anybody else have a bad feeling about Jon Connington?

[Nathan Stark]

21 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

And also, is it just me or did GRRM make fAegon exert some real Joffrey/Viserys vibes? Why should we believe anything that Varys said about him in his sales pitch to Kevan Lannister? (and also, why would he try to convince a dying man how great fAegon is?)

Aegon seems like a good kid to me, but he's still just a kid. He honestly acts a lot like Robb Stark in the early part of AGoT. It's clear Aegon still has more growing to do before he is ready to rule Seven Kingdoms. Tyrion points this out to us when he observes that Aegon lacks worldly experience, so I think George is going for a boy to man ark with Aegon. Of course, Robb didn't have anybody like Jon Connington acting on his behalf, so that could well complicate things for Aegon.

[James Steller]

4 minutes ago, chatty83 said:

Could simply be his own guilt talking. He seems to like Kevan well enough (as far as someone whose willing to shoot you with a crossbow is) and maybes he is eleviating his own guilt at killing him by trying to explain why he did it before he passes.

Given Varys’ actions across the books, as well as his portrayal, I find it highly unlikely that he had that much empathy for Kevan Lannister. And even if he did, he’s a fool to think that knowing about fAegon would be any kind of comfort to Kevan.

[chatty83]

2 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Given Varys’ actions across the books, as well as his portrayal, I find it highly unlikely that he had that much empathy for Kevan Lannister. And even if he did, he’s a fool to think that knowing about fAegon would be any kind of comfort to Kevan.

Probables but its an easy way to talk to the audience. Bit like a James Bond villain revealing his plans before vacating, only at least Varys is more thorough.

[Mordred]

12 minutes ago, chatty83 said:

Probables but its an easy way to talk to the audience. Bit like a James Bond villain revealing his plans before vacating, only at least Varys is more thorough.

"No, Mr. Bond.  I expect you to die."

 

[Walda]

It is ominous. Tyrion recognises his likeness to Tywin in his cold and mirthless manners. He has rushed into the West before Daenerys, partly because the grey plauge has put him on a deadline, partly because he is still rash, so the half-baked plan Tyrion sold Aegon has a certain appeal. At the moment, the Golden Company has been very lucky, and his greyscale has moved slowly. 

But all the foreshadowing and everything about their situation indicates it isn't going to keep going their way much longer, and they are not equipped to deal with the reverses (they are barely able to keep up with their sucess). 

And yes, JonCon is almost certainly going to spread the grey plauge through Westeros, when he is besieged at Storm's End. 

The purpose of a mummer's dragon is to give the hero something to fight. So I am wondering who the hero that fights the Golden Company will be.

Stannis already holds Storm's End, and his war in the North has been heroic. He seems a natural choice.  If Jon is resurrected, he would owe Melisandre, whose flames might foresee it, and he is genrally heroic. Loras Tyrell is another hero that might take a tilt at King Tommen's foe.

There are other less obvious potential heros: Red Ronnet, Thoros, Jaime, Ser Robert Strong, Brienne, Gendry, Darkstar, Randyll Tarly, maybe even Sam (well, he is in the South).

The Golden Company are battle hardened and well organised. They might have elephants. It won't be a cakewalk, but the locals have the advantage, in numbers and in familiarity with the territory.

[Canon Claude]

2 hours ago, chatty83 said:

Bit like a James Bond villain revealing his plans before vacating, only at least Varys is more thorough.

Why do so many people not see this as bad storytelling? It's one reason why I can't get through so many action films. The Good the Bad and the Ugly made the perfect mockery of that trope by having a random bad guy show up, corner Tuco in the bath, give a long exposition about his history with Tuco, only for the twist. I'm not going to give it away if you haven't seen the scene, but after I saw that when I was 14, I can't take that story trope seriously anymore.

[Curled Finger]

6 hours ago, James Steller said:

That’s the obvious answer, of COURSE the author is giving us information through the dialogue. That’s not the issue. The issue is what is the in-universe logic for Varys to monologue at a man he’s not bothering to convince. The scene would have made much more sense if he’d wingman’d fAegon to try and win Kevan over to the cause. That would justify the monologue much more. But I believe the point of the question was this: if Varys is going to kill Kevan regardless, what does he gain by rambling about fAegon‘s worthiness? There’s no point in trying to convince a dying enemy of what’s going on unless Varys wants to rub it in Kevan’s face that he was wrong, and Varys clearly doesn’t hate Kevan that much.

Varys told Kevan he didn't deserve to die like this and told him he had to go because he was ruining the plan.   I thought it was a real apology.  That Varys was explaining his actions to a man he didn't really want to kill.

I had the opportunity to read Connington's 2 POV chapters not that long ago.   Once I got into him without the distraction of witty Tyrion, I saw a man I didn't expect to see.  He is whiny and hard-done-by.  He holds grudges.  He knows this is whole plan is very bad, but believes this child is Rhaegar's.  I didn't get the revenge vibe off of him.   He wants to do better this time.  Sadly he thinks he needs to burn villages which a lot of folks interpret to mean he's going to kill Tommen or Myrcella or both with the same brutality Tywin killed Ellia's children.  I don't see it in him.   I think he wants to believe he was a real Hand of the King for some good thing he did but we all know Aerys was throwing Hand names at dart boards at the time.  Jon Connington heads straight for Griffin's Roost?  C'mon, who does that?  I think that greyscale may hasten some of Connington's plans, but not make him reckless.  Connington is the guy who's half consumed by stone, but keeps plugging away, maybe to save his prince on the battlefield when a dragon swoops down and makes of snack of him or one of his own men shoot him with an arrow by mistake.   He's that guy.  He's not a terrible guy, but he's not a great guy, either.  I was really disappointed to see this in him because I sorta liked him before I got him by himself.   

 

[Rose of Red Lake]

Idk, when characters vow not to make the same mistake again I think they...will?

[Aebram]

I just had a thought about this, which is new to me; perhaps it's old news to the Council Members.

GRRM has created some great villains, but not one of them has ever had a POV chapter.

We see Euron through Aeron's POV. We see Ramsay though Theon's POV.  Lord Tywin, Lord Walder, Ser Gregor ... no POV chapters.

Jon Con has had a couple of POV chapters. That may be an indication of where his story line is going..

It occurs to me that Cersei might be an exception to the pattern.  She's a POV character who is selfish and dishonest; and she's been involved in a few murders, although she didn't actually do the killing. Does she count as a "villain?"

[Bloodraven’s Spider]

Connington will get killed before he can do serious damage to innocent people imo. I think Varys will find out about his grey scale and have him killed. 

[Mourning Star]

On 9/30/2020 at 4:27 PM, James Steller said:

That’s the obvious answer, of COURSE the author is giving us information through the dialogue. That’s not the issue. The issue is what is the in-universe logic for Varys to monologue at a man he’s not bothering to convince. The scene would have made much more sense if he’d wingman’d fAegon to try and win Kevan over to the cause. That would justify the monologue much more. But I believe the point of the question was this: if Varys is going to kill Kevan regardless, what does he gain by rambling about fAegon‘s worthiness? There’s no point in trying to convince a dying enemy of what’s going on unless Varys wants to rub it in Kevan’s face that he was wrong, and Varys clearly doesn’t hate Kevan that much.

I've pondered this question as well, and in my head it's because Varys is trying to convince himself, and using this chance to spell things out to Kevin as a chance to do so.

On some level he must understand that he and Illyrio's plan to install Aegon is self serving and not just some act of "greater good".  

I also find it very interesting that Varys calls himself a "silly old woman"... 

"You are suffering, I know, yet here I stand going on like some silly old woman."

"silly old woman" appears exactly two other times so far in the series, Cat thinking it to herself just before The Rains of Castamere begins to play at the Red Wedding, and Olenna calls herself it when patting Sansa's hair at the Purple Wedding.

 

[Nathan Stark]

I think Cersei does count as a villian. There is a lot of murder and death of mostly innocent people that Cersei is either responsible for or allowed to happen. Think about baby Barra and her mother, or the women Cersei allowed Qyburn to play with. Definate villian.

As for Jon's greyscale, that is a Checkov's gun. Why would George introduce the possibility only to have Varys kill Jon before it becomes a threat? There's no payoff if there isn't a spreading greyscale pandemic.

[Back in Black-Snow]

I have a feeling Jon Connington will be killed by Euron. And his corpse will be used to spread Greyscale everywhere.

[James Steller]

1 hour ago, Nathan Stark said:

As for Jon's greyscale, that is a Checkov's gun. Why would George introduce the possibility only to have Varys kill Jon before it becomes a threat? There's no payoff if there isn't a spreading greyscale pandemic.

Except that I doubt that Checkov ever wrote a play where the gun goes on to be used in a mass shooting spree cross-country.

The only message I got from Jon’s greyscale is that it’s going to affect him, and possibly fAegon and a couple other characters close to him. I never would have predicted that Jon will cause a pandemic. And not only would that be problematic (as has already been explained) but it’s also incredibly overkill. There’s going to be enough messed up things happening without a plague of greyscale too.

[Walda]

1 hour ago, James Steller said:

There’s going to be enough messed up things happening without a plague of greyscale too.

And yet, there is Shireen on Dragonstone with it's Stone Drum and stone dragons, the Bridge of Dream with Garin and the Shrouded Lord, the stone Sealords of Braavos and the Titan, the seastone chair and Harlon Greyjoy (born of a woman from the  Stonetrees), the stone kings of Winterfell, Oldstones the ancient hall of kings with Tristifer's stone sepulchure, Stepstones, Stoney Sept, Stone Hedge, Stone Mill, Stone Helm, Stonecrows, the stone faces of the unsullied, the Palestone Sword, Gorne and Gendal's children, the Fist of the First men, High Heart and Erreg the Kinslayer ...

Without being comprehensive, there is a lot of symbolism around stone (there is also a lot of symbolism around grey stuff, too).

Chekhov never had a play where a loaded gun appeared in the first act. I am not sure GRRM will be able to keep all the promises he makes in ASoIaF. Some of his symbolism must surely come to nothing, some of the clutter of objects he has strewn through the first part of his story must needs be discarded.

Greyscale isn't one of those things. Greyscale has already been solidly foreshadowed. It has started happening already. It isn't going to go away over winter.

[Curled Finger]

5 hours ago, James Steller said:

Except that I doubt that Checkov ever wrote a play where the gun goes on to be used in a mass shooting spree cross-country.

The only message I got from Jon’s greyscale is that it’s going to affect him, and possibly fAegon and a couple other characters close to him. I never would have predicted that Jon will cause a pandemic. And not only would that be problematic (as has already been explained) but it’s also incredibly overkill. There’s going to be enough messed up things happening without a plague of greyscale too.

I dunno.  Val makes a big deal out of Shireen, calling her dead, right?  Val doesn't mince words at all about what should be done about Shireen.  Then we have Tyrion giving some detail about the stone men and greyscale and Voila, our very own POV with greyscale.  While I mostly agree there may not be an epidemic I think this introduction will be indiscriminate and immediate.  Maybe not all of Westeros, maybe just the Stormlands and...everyone else who had it and is in remission.  Someone will start up a Who Will Die of Greyscale topic some day then we can go through all the characters and houses and see how bad it will really be.  Fortunately there are no characters in Jon Connington's immediate vicinity that I care about...yet.  

[James Steller]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

  Val makes a big deal out of Shireen, calling her dead, right?  Val doesn't mince words at all about what should be done about Shireen.  

Val is from an objectively primitive culture, and I take those words with a grain of salt. Shireen wouldn’t just be a walking time bomb which spreads a disease, surely. Why would she not be dying of it herself? Why shouldn’t her parents or Davos or Edric not already gotten greyscale?

[Lord Varys]

23 hours ago, James Steller said:

Except that I doubt that Checkov ever wrote a play where the gun goes on to be used in a mass shooting spree cross-country.

The only message I got from Jon’s greyscale is that it’s going to affect him, and possibly fAegon and a couple other characters close to him. I never would have predicted that Jon will cause a pandemic. And not only would that be problematic (as has already been explained) but it’s also incredibly overkill. There’s going to be enough messed up things happening without a plague of greyscale too.

George has gone on record that ADwD was supposed to be about plagues and sickness. We got a little bit about that with the Pale Mare, but not enough in light of the fact that we got a very detailed (and superficial if it leads nowhere) explanation on the three different strains of greyscale (children's greyscale, adult greyscale, and the grey plague), very much indicating that both Shireen and Jon will serve as carriers of the disease, starting an epidemic later on.

Shireen's greyscale can resurface if Val is right, and Jon could be a carrier of the grey plague. He himself could die slowly of the normal adult greyscale, but the people he infects could die of the grey plague.

[Ser Leftwich]

Maybe we should be asking: Does anyone have a good feeling about Jon Connington?!?!?

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

17 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Maybe we should be asking: Does anyone have a good feeling about Jon Connington?!?!?

I gotta good feeling he's going spread Greyscale around.