The Next Wolverine

[Heartofice]

Well actually the big question is, if you are going to do an X-Men movie.. which characters do you use? Is it the OT cast of Cyclops and Jean Grey etc, the Claremont crew with Wolverine and Storm, or do you use later incarnations? Or is it a messed up mix like most of the existing movies. 

[JGP]

2 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Well actually the big question is, if you are going to do an X-Men movie.. which characters do you use? Is it the OT cast of Cyclops and Jean Grey etc, the Claremont crew with Wolverine and Storm, or do you use later incarnations? Or is it a messed up mix like most of the existing movies. 

I'd go with my line up from above, which is pretty much the All New, All Different X-Men roster. Thunderbird died right away in the comic, so yea or nay on inclusion and I've never been a huge fan of either Banshee or Sunfire-- but Kitty definitely has to come with Lockheed or it's a deal breaker for me. 

 

[Winterfell is Burning]

It will probably be a mix up; Cyclops, Storm and Beast are pretty much a given, and Logan of course will appear, but maybe with a solo movie and joining the team later.  The rest will depend on their ideas (perhaps Jean Grey will be out, due to the overuse of the Phoenix). I can see Rogue and Nightcrawler appearing as villains at first, with Mystique and Destiny.

Also, have the team be made of only and mostly teenagers would be a good way to not only have actors that can play the role for a long time, but also to immediately differentiate them from the Avengers- rather than a bunch of veteran all-stars getting together, it's a bunch of kids learning the ropes.

[Rhom]

21 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

It will probably be a mix up; Cyclops, Storm and Beast are pretty much a given, and Logan of course will appear, but maybe with a solo movie and joining the team later.  The rest will depend on their ideas (perhaps Jean Grey will be out, due to the overuse of the Phoenix). I can see Rogue and Nightcrawler appearing as villains at first, with Mystique and Destiny.

Also, have the team be made of only and mostly teenagers would be a good way to not only have actors that can play the role for a long time, but also to immediately differentiate them from the Avengers- rather than a bunch of veteran all-stars getting together, it's a bunch of kids learning the ropes.

So... ummm... First Class?

[Winterfell is Burning]

Just now, Rhom said:

So... ummm... First Class?

Not really. First, because they used mostly D-listers that didn't really had much connection to the X-men (plus, I'm not sure how many of them were actual teenagers). Second, First Class was about Xavier and Magneto starting their dick measuring context, while presumably a X-men movie will focus more on the actual X-men.

[polishgenius]

I'm still worried about how they're gonna introduce the X-Men at all. Like prejudice against them is obviously a key to their story, and in any case several of their characters make no sense if they're not long-established, but it just wouldn't make sense in the MCU as it stands. Wanda-ing them in seems the most likely option but I'm not sure I like it.

[Heartofice]

I’d really like to see a proper attempt at the OT, with Angel and Beast as well. However I really think that ship has sailed, they’ve tried so many times to get the formula right and it’s always been subpar. I can’t imagine the horror of another Phoenix story! 
 

So yeah, it’s a good point, what is the differentiation for the X-Men, what makes them different to Avengers and Fantastic Four? Depends on what era really. The original squad were pretty much the same as FF in a lot of ways.

I got into X-Men because it was a bit grittier, more adult and less silly, than most Marvel comics of the time. Right now I don’t know where you’d fit an X-Men movie.

If they do Fantastic Four then that should be ‘fantastical’ and high concept and use the galaxy they’ve set up.

You could use X movies to be more political and serious and more adult.

[Winterfell is Burning]

12 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

I'm still worried about how they're gonna introduce the X-Men at all. Like prejudice against them is obviously a key to their story, and in any case several of their characters make no sense if they're not long-established, but it just wouldn't make sense in the MCU as it stands. Wanda-ing them in seems the most likely option but I'm not sure I like it.

The ones that supposed to be older were mostly discreet (like Xavier and Wolverine). Magneto is a bigger problem, particularly with his origin tied to the Holocaust. Most of the others join the X-men as teenagers or young adults just after they got their powers.

But the more recent approach of the X-men by Jonathan Hickman solves a lot of the problems, to the point it's clear Marvel will use at least some of the ideas (spoilers for the House of X/Powers of 10 series):

 

Mutants are feared mostly because they're the future, and set to become the dominant group in the world, not to mention have a lot of very scary people in their side that are outright supremacists. At the same time, they're still the underdog because they know what happens in the future or has happened in the past- is that they ultimately lose and both human and mutants are extinct.

Edited October 1, 2020 by Winterfell is Burning

[polishgenius]

13 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

The ones that supposed to be older were mostly discreet (like Xavier and Wolverine). Magneto is a bigger problem, particularly with his origin tied to the Holocaust. Most of the others join the X-men as teenagers or young adults just after they got their powers.

Yeah but it's not just the X-Men themselves, it's all mutantry. Prejudice against them just doesn't make sense in the context of the MCU, unless it also encompasses all other powers. I mean that was always somewhat a problem for the MCU anyway but it'll be a lot more glaring.

[JGP]

Further to Winterfell's post, despite the dilution by other super powered beings, prejudice against mutants is still pretty easy to estanblish in-universe. I mean, humanity would more readily accept those powered by accidental scyfyence [Spiderman etc] others by ingestion of super soldier formulas [Cap, Nick Fury] or the technologically powered [Iron Man] but those whom maybe were born with it? Yeah no. Not unless mutants use their powers as professional athletes or something.

---

I was thinking, with Deadpool jumping over to the MCU, you could cheese out a bit and say [at least] that the Xavier Institute, Peter, and Negasonic have already been established. 

 

edit: Deadpool later running into the MCU Peter, 'You've changed, Colossus.' DP then gets a little weepy. 

 

Edited October 1, 2020 by JEORDHl

[WarGalley]

 

52 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Yeah but it's not just the X-Men themselves, it's all mutantry. Prejudice against them just doesn't make sense in the context of the MCU, unless it also encompasses all other powers. I mean that was always somewhat a problem for the MCU anyway but it'll be a lot more glaring.

I don't really see a problem here. The MCU has already built up public backlash over the Avengers.. multiply it and carry it over to mutants. Particularly mutants qho aren't isolated to the Avengers HQ and might be your neighbor's kid qho doesnt know how to use their powers.

The remaining Avengers today in Phase 4 are more space oriented so they can deal with extraterrestial threats instead of Earth-based conflicts. The Black Panther franchise can focus on problems internal to Wakanda wherever they go with the franchise. Not sure Hulk, Winter Soldier, Falcon is even considered a part of Phase 4. 

This leaves the X-Men to deal with earth based conflicts and the Fantastic 4 to sort of straddle the 2.. or deal with other dimensions with Dr. Strange. There's a lot of opportunity here in my opinion. The biggest issues is rejuvenating storylines and characters disastrously used during Fox's run.. not around the premise of civil rights and segregation.

Edited October 1, 2020 by WarGalley

[Winterfell is Burning]

1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

Yeah but it's not just the X-Men themselves, it's all mutantry. Prejudice against them just doesn't make sense in the context of the MCU, unless it also encompasses all other powers. I mean that was always somewhat a problem for the MCU anyway but it'll be a lot more glaring.

Well, first of all, prejudice doesn't make sense really. Why prejudice against people because their skin is darker, or they are part of the wrong ethnicity? It's not logical.

And in anyway mutants aren't scary just because they have powers, but because now your neighbor, that kid that goes to school with your kids, that asshole in the DMV, all of them can suddenly discover they have superpowers and can kill you easily. Heck, they can even kill you accidentally, without meaning to. Also, hard to get that promotion if your co-worker can read your boss' mind to force him to promote her or simply find out what she wants, or you can train for years to be the best athlete and all the sudden there's a guy that can run 10 times faster than Usain Bolt or be a better swimmer than Phelps or have a stronger punch than Tyson- or all three at the same time.

Plus, of course, there's the big, scary ones. Think there was a lot of Islamophobia post-9/11? Imagine if Bin Laden had Magneto's powers.

 

[DMC]

I was exposed to XMen via the 90s TV show, never read the comic (or really any comics).  Their principal cast was Scott, Jean, Logan, Storm, Rogue, Beast, Gambit, and Jubilee.  If I could choose I'd sub out Jubilee and add Angel and Iceman to include the original 5.  Also like the idea mentioned above of Rogue and Nightcrawler starting out as villains w/Mystique, but it appears my cast is already getting bloated.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Or here's an idea, maybe don't retread something that's already been done to death.....

[JGP]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

I was exposed to XMen via the 90s TV show, never read the comic (or really any comics).  Their principal cast was Scott, Jean, Logan, Storm, Rogue, Beast, Gambit, and Jubilee.  If I could choose I'd sub out Jubilee and add Angel and Iceman to include the original 5.  Also like the idea mentioned above of Rogue and Nightcrawler starting out as villains w/Mystique, but it appears my cast is already getting bloated.

I wouldn't worry about the bloated cast too much. Just make sure they all get their moments and the narrative direction nails the interpersonal dynamics, ie: Logan and Kurt are bigtime bros, Peter and Kitty falling for each other or falling out, Scott and Jean [Ororo mixes well with all] Bobby and Hank, etc etc [I wouldn't be fussed if Warren didn't make the cut, same with Gambit] Rogue kinda odd girl out, but a heavy weight...

If you got all that down, everyone gets their beat but the team stomps the most, there'll be enough fan love to spin off into solo and/or team up films. The X-Men's rogues gallery and the span of stories are huge, plus, they have some seriously compelling villains.

Edited October 2, 2020 by JEORDHl

[DMC]

18 minutes ago, JEORDHl said:

I wouldn't worry about the bloated cast too much. Just make sure they all get their moments and the narrative direction nails the interpersonal dynamics

Fair point.  In that case I'd also include Colossus and Kitty.  And yeah, their rogues gallery is outstanding - I'd really like to see Mister Sinister.

[Heartofice]

9 hours ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

 

And in anyway mutants aren't scary just because they have powers, but because now your neighbor, that kid that goes to school with your kids, that asshole in the DMV, all of them can suddenly discover they have superpowers and can kill you easily. Heck, they can even kill you accidentally, without meaning to. Also, hard to get that promotion if your co-worker can read your boss' mind to force him to promote her or simply find out what she wants, or you can train for years to be the best athlete and all the sudden there's a guy that can run 10 times faster than Usain Bolt or be a better swimmer than Phelps or have a stronger punch than Tyson- or all three at the same time.

Plus, of course, there's the big, scary ones. Think there was a lot of Islamophobia post-9/11? Imagine if Bin Laden had Magneto's powers.

 

I think the way to frame the story would that your average joe was ok with Superheroes, because they were there to save humanity and protect people.. well up until Age of Ultron and Civil War. Now most people are at the very least suspicious of superheroes.

But Mutants are something else. If the numbers of Mutants started to increase then you start to have a paranoia from humans that Mutants will replace them and wipe them out. A Cap America or Iron Man is just a couple of supes, but if you start seeing a huge rise in Mutants than suddenly people get scared and over react. That is how I would frame the story and it would pretty relevant politically. 

[Rhom]

6 hours ago, Heartofice said:

I think the way to frame the story would that your average joe was ok with Superheroes, because they were there to save humanity and protect people.. well up until Age of Ultron and Civil War. Now most people are at the very least suspicious of superheroes.

But Mutants are something else. If the numbers of Mutants started to increase then you start to have a paranoia from humans that Mutants will replace them and wipe them out. A Cap America or Iron Man is just a couple of supes, but if you start seeing a huge rise in Mutants than suddenly people get scared and over react. That is how I would frame the story and it would pretty relevant politically. 

I think you take Age of Ultron and throw in the weird stuff around the Snappening and you could easily see a world where people are mistrustful of superpowers now.  Maybe the mutant gene somehow shows up more with those who were snapped and returned.  Everyone starts suspecting the people that were gone and came back.  Throw on that Tony was the one to bring them back this way and you can even be mad at the Avengers too.

[DMC]

6 minutes ago, Rhom said:

Maybe the mutant gene somehow shows up more with those who were snapped and returned.  Everyone starts suspecting the people that were gone and came back. 

So, the opposite of the leftovers?  The rightunders?

[TheLastWolf]

Kevin hart would make a great Beast