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Why do so many people think that Jon and Val will be a thing?


Alyn Oakenfist

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Jon's fans tend to like Val and hate Dany so it's mostly about that.

Jon will need the wildlings to follow him and despite the protestations about wildlings not following princesses, the wildlings do tend to fall in line behind her, so he may marry her for that purpose.

To the average wildling, if he were not to marry Val but presume to lead them, then the question would become why won't he marry her? Their marriage would seem the natural thing for the situation. And if he were to marry a Westeros Lady instead that may be a signal to them his allegiance isn't truly to them.

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7 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Hard to say that. There is something there, but it could just be friendship, the same thing being the case the other way around

So, if a guy goes out in the yard to exchange steel and then checks whether a certain lady is watching him from her tower window, it's just friendship? I'd say not.

When Stannis offers Winterfell AND Val for his wife, and Jon thinks he wants it (including children with her), it's just friendship? I think not.

When Jon sees her in her white with fur clothes that were a gift from Dalla together with Ghost and thinks it's the most beautiful sight he's ever seen, it's just friendship? I think not.

Jon clearly has the hots for her and desires her.

As to your OP question: in aSoIaF, George builds up romantic pairings across several books, and each pairing includes a period of separation, Val & Jon follow the same pattern.

  • Jon meets Val the first time at the the start of aSoS. Despite his romance with Ygritter and Val's dalliance with Jarl, by the end of aSoS, both Ygritte and Jarl are dead, Jon ends up "taking Val prisoner" (protecting her from the chaos during Stannis's attack) and Stannis offers Val as a wife to Jon. It's enough for Jon to recognize that he desires Val and can see her as his wife, the mother of his children. However, he declines the offer, because it would compromize Winterfell, force Winterfell to convert to Rh'llor.
  • Jon begins to interact with Val, and work as a team in aDwD. They get to know one another a little bit better, and build up mutual chemistry. But they have a disagreement over Shyreen's greyscale. And Selyse decides to wed Val to Patrek, who ends up killed by Wun Wun. Note: Jon doesn't see Val in the window of the tower in his last chapter. Along with the assassination attempt on Jon, it seems to me that the two will be kept separate for a while in tWoW still.

This is similar to Dany and Daario:

  • Dany meets Daario in aSoS, initially with the enemy. She gets to know him better over the course of the book and realizes she desires him, but is in doubt in trusting him and giving into him.
  • In aDwD, she does eventually have an affair with him, but ends up choosing marrying Hizdahr and sends Daario away on missions and as hostage to preserve the peace and not make her marriage to Hizdahr look like a sham. She then disappears on the back of Drogon, while Daario is still a hostage.
  • For a large part of tWoW, the two will remain separate.

And it's similar to Sansan:

  • Sansa and Sandor meet in aGoT, getting to know one another over the course of two books (aGoT and aCoK), before Sandor flees from King's Landing.

Or Gendrya:

  • Gendry and Arya meet in aCoK, getting to know one another over the course of 2 books (aCoK and aSoS), before Sandor kidnaps Arya and she journeys to Braavos.

Even with Bran and Meera we see something similar:

  • Bran gets to know Meera better over the course of aCoK and aSoS. But in aDwD, Jojen's depression and Bran's treedreaming leads to a scene where Meera is not present in Bran's last scene in aDwD.

And then there's Jaime & Brienne:

  • Meet at the end of aCoK, get to know each other in aSoS, separate soon in aFfC, and are reunited in aDwD (dubiously)

I'm not arguing that any of these have a happy ending. I doubt most will. But it's the slow build pattern that George puts into romantic pairings of significance between a POV character with a non-POV character and which I expect him to circle back on and resolve somehow. Notice too, that none of these are POV-POV pairings, except for Jaime & Brienne. I believe that George wants to create romantic stories where each POV has a side character to themselves basically. And while Brienne became a POV in aFfC, of the two characters, Jaime's the one whose POV spans 3 books, and Brienne's only 1, and thus Jaime's the more dominant or main POV. It's quite possible that Brienne may not even have a POV in tWoW.

Also all these pairings have both allusions to weddings (song, offerings, white cloak and bells, bearpit is a bear-wedding ritual), but are also hampered or interfered with by others forcing marriage upon one of the two characters of the pairing:

  • Sansa & Tyrion
  • Bran wed to a tree
  • Selyse decreeing Patrek is to take Val for wife
  • Dany marrying Hizdahr
  • Ramsay Bolton, a legitimized bastard, marrying fake Arya / Red Wedding / Hyle suggesting Gendry weds Willow
  • Hyle is a potential groom bound to want to interfere between Brienne and Jaime (if he still lives)

@chrisdaw and that is one of the reasons why I don't believe in a Dany-Jon pairing, or at least not one with mutual attraction or recopricated. George may have written pairings that developed and resolved in one book (Jon-Ygritte, Dany-Drogo, Sansa-Tyrion), but all ended disastrous and in death and came about by power-plays, to gain power or to survive and were not born out of romantic feelings (even if the characters ended up loving one another). There are the slow burn pairings and there are the forced pairings.

 

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4 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

The better question is, why does anyone bother with "shipping" at all in a series written by a guy who exclusively portrays romantic love as a character flaw?

how did you get that? Ned and Cat, Danny and Drogo, Jon and Ygritte or Tyrion and Tysha where all loving relationships and weren't written as character flaws, even with Robb and Jeyne the flaw was Robb's honor obsession rather than his love. And there are much more examples in his non ASOIAF work

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Just now, CamiloRP said:

how did you get that? Ned and Cat, Danny and Drogo, Jon and Ygritte or Tyrion and Tysha where all loving relationships and weren't written as character flaws, even with Robb and Jeyne the flaw was Robb's honor obsession rather than his love. And there are much more examples in his non ASOIAF work

Ned and Cat and Drogo and Danny were both relationships that were formed for practical purposes with love growing later, which appears to be the author's idea of the proper way of things. Jon and Ygritte could be viewed in the same way, at least from Jon's perspective. Ygritte, who entered the ralationship based on attraction, absolutely came to regret it. Tyrion and Tysha was ABSOLUTELY a destructive relationship which brought ruin to them both.

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1 minute ago, Damon_Tor said:

Ned and Cat and Drogo and Danny were both relationships that were formed for practical purposes with love growing later, which appears to be the author's idea of the proper way of things. Jon and Ygritte could be viewed in the same way, at least from Jon's perspective. Ygritte, who entered the ralationship based on attraction, absolutely came to regret it. Tyrion and Tysha was ABSOLUTELY a destructive relationship which brought ruin to them both.

Regardless of how the relationship came to be, there was romantic love in all those relationships, and it was never portrayed as a character flaw.

The problem with Ygritte's and Jon's relationship wasn't romantic love, but rather discrimination, war, vows and immigration laws.

The problem with Tysha's and Tyrion's relationship wasn't romantic love, but rather class divide and Tywin's pride.

The relationship ending in a tragic way doesn't mean that the relationship was bad it's like claiming X and Y had a bad relationship bc Y died of cancer.

Also, forgot about another loving romantic relationship: Tywin and Joanna, his love for her is his biggest redeeming quality.

 

The point that, IMHO, GRRM is making with Ned and Cat and Drogo and Dany is that love blossoms from putting work in the relationship, not that the proper way of things is love for convenience, that notion is criticized in the text several times and makes little sense with GRRM's personal life (I mean, he dedicates all his books to Parris since he's been with her) and his other works.

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They're def flirting with each other. But I don't think they're getting together. That ship sailed when Jon turned down Stannis' offer.

I wonder how Jonsa and Jonrya shippers view Val...

10 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

The worst place for ASOIAF theories there is and ever will be is a youtube channel called the order of the green hand, and they are convinced that Jon and Val are twins, and if I'm not mistaken they still ship them? I don't know it's a piece of shit channel, I just wanted to hate on them for a bit.

I hate that channel too. I hate almost all YT ASOIAF channels. They all seem to be heavily into crackpot, probably because that's what gets views.

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8 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I hate that channel too. I hate almost all YT ASOIAF channels. They all seem to be heavily into crackpot, probably because that's what gets views.

Most crackpot channels know what they are, and tho I don't like them, it's not the same as that bullshit, they sound so self righteous about theories with no textual support whatsoever. 

I just remembered they made a theory about how the religion of the many faced god is the same religion as that of the old gods, and then made a theory about how the faith of the seven is the same religion as that of the old gods... after making a long series about how the andals are assholes who hate the first men and their religion. And throughout all of these series they sound like R'hllor zealots, which is fucking weird since it's a fictional religion depicted as completely fucked up in the book is from.

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1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

So, if a guy goes out in the yard to exchange steel and then checks whether a certain lady is watching him from her tower window, it's just friendship? I'd say not.

When Stannis offers Winterfell AND Val for his wife, and Jon thinks he wants it (including children with her), it's just friendship? I think not.

When Jon sees her in her white with fur clothes that were a gift from Dalla together with Ghost and thinks it's the most beautiful sight he's ever seen, it's just friendship? I think not.

Jon clearly has the hots for her and desires her.

I had a good laugh over this, thank you. Perfectly said. I salute you!

Though that does make me wonder whether Jon will want Ghost to watch when he and Val make a (hopefully metaphorical) beast with two backs  :lol:

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I think there are a lot of possible matchups smashups? for all these characters in some readers' eyes.  I read for mystery and magic and a good scare, some read for the romance factor.  I hope Jon doesn't get caught up in anything other than sorting himself out for a long long time when he comes around.  I think Val is good for him, like Tormund is good for him or Edd.  You know, good soldiers who can think things through and get things done.   It wouldn't be terrible if Val just got to be part of the cure instead of some tragic love interest.  She's pretty spunky as this story goes.  

One idea I don't think gets as much chatter as it maybe should is Val's brand of magic and the role she could have in bringing Jon around.  Jon is in a whole different place than any character we've read yet.  

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Well, the one thing I am sure about is that Jon is dead, and somehow will be ressurected.

The simple proof (that I never saw before mentioned on the forum) is that Melisandre sees Jon in his vision. First, he is a man, then he becomes a wolf, and again human. This must only refer to his warging skills, but it was written right before his assasination. 

The other thing that noone mentions is that this coin is two-sided, Val shows interest in Jon too, tho it's hidden very deep.

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7 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I think there are a lot of possible matchups smashups? for all these characters in some readers' eyes.  I read for mystery and magic and a good scare, some read for the romance factor. 

Well, I read it for all sorts of angles and interests - mainly the characters' growth arcs, and romantic entanglements and feelings are part of life and growing up or finding yourself. I think that's why George wrote them in for his POVs, even while they're still children. It's part of the human condition and heart in conflict.

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4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, I read it for all sorts of angles and interests - mainly the characters' growth arcs, and romantic entanglements and feelings are part of life and growing up or finding yourself. I think that's why George wrote them in for his POVs, even while they're still children. It's part of the human condition and heart in conflict.

It is and I didn't intend to put anyone in a box.  I read your points about the reactions and certainly see where you could be right.   It's just not a thing that interests me.  @Lady Dacey recently shared with me where she sees romance written into the Gendry/Arya story.   I just have such a hard time with children and sex but these are not normal children in a normal time.   Arya's age is still a major obstacle for me, but I hope I can be open to possibility.   Where Jon and Val are concerned...Sigh...they have so much to do and little time.   I wouldn't mind a beautiful woman any major character is attracted to not falling into the relationship because of a higher calling.   

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I think Val is Jon's best option for a seemingly "normal" relationship and they clearly get along and are attracted. He could even be said to have taken her when he took her prisoner. 

But hey, Arya and Dany are clearly his best prospects. After all a husband and wife can't be truly close unless they were already family to begin with. :rolleyes:

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12 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

I think Val is Jon's best option for a seemingly "normal" relationship and they clearly get along and are attracted. He could even be said to have taken her when he took her prisoner. 

But hey, Arya and Dany are clearly his best prospects. After all a husband and wife can't be truly close unless they were already family to begin with. :rolleyes:

Well, to be honest, I share your opinion in this. Val is a great match for Jon, and there is no chance that they're twins, since Val is over 20 already, while Jon is 16 at the time of the assasination. The other thing is, where would Val get that look, why didn't Val get the look of the Starks? I already feel sad for her, maybe just me, but I'm afraid he will die(He is one of my fav's).

Anyway, I don't know if Arya remains Arya after all, but the thing I don't see happening is the "Dany v Jon cagefight", since there is a common enemy. This might bring them together in the end?

 

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6 hours ago, HerblYY said:

Well, to be honest, I share your opinion in this. Val is a great match for Jon, and there is no chance that they're twins, since Val is over 20 already, while Jon is 16 at the time of the assasination.

 

 

Where´d you get that ? I searched for a while, but I didn´t find any evidence about Vals age.

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