Nathan Stark Posted April 17, 2021 Share Posted April 17, 2021 6 minutes ago, divica said: But as a reader you felt sad for frodo? Like was it bad for him to go with the elves? Yes, I feel sad for Frodo. It's not like going to the Undying Lands was a particular life goal for him. He set out to save the Shire, which meant being the ringbearer, a task that psychologically and physically broke him. Going with the elves isn't bad, but it is tragic that Frodo couldn't find peace in the Shire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divica Posted April 17, 2021 Share Posted April 17, 2021 2 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said: Yes, I feel sad for Frodo. It's not like going to the Undying Lands was a particular life goal for him. He set out to save the Shire, which meant being the ringbearer, a task that psychologically and physically broke him. Going with the elves isn't bad, but it is tragic that Frodo couldn't find peace in the Shire. Even if that is true he is going to an amazing place with amazing people. I just can't compare wildlings with elves. For book readers the wildlings in general are an awfull group of people. Their traditions are brutal. Hell, the weeper is one of their leaders! And nobody wants to live north of the wall. The wildlings have tried to get south for thousands of years. And after uniting with the rest of westeros they would simply return to where they came from? After receiving land in the gift they would abandon it? Whatever happens it doesn t make any sense for the wildlings to leave the gift and the lands near the wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted April 17, 2021 Share Posted April 17, 2021 23 minutes ago, divica said: I just can't compare wildlings with elves. For book readers the wildlings in general are an awfull group of people. Their traditions are brutal. Hell, the weeper is one of their leaders! I don't agree and I am a book reader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divica Posted April 17, 2021 Share Posted April 17, 2021 10 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said: I don't agree and I am a book reader. really? You don t think they are rapists, canibals, thieves, killers, primitives that don t have laws? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted April 17, 2021 Share Posted April 17, 2021 4 minutes ago, divica said: really? You don t think they are rapists, canibals, thieves, killers, primitives that don t have laws? I think that bad people exist everywhere. It's not unique to Free Folk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divica Posted April 17, 2021 Share Posted April 17, 2021 22 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said: I think that bad people exist everywhere. It's not unique to Free Folk. This isn t some bad people. This si their culture. Like there are people is essos that are slavers there are wildlings that are canibals. And their wedding ceremony is to kidnap a woman and rape her. I don t see the magnificience... I can agree that their idea of freedom and each people owning their own things is cool. But then they don t have any law that forbids them from killing a wildling and taking their cool stuff for themselves... They have almost no laws... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted April 17, 2021 Share Posted April 17, 2021 Just now, divica said: there are wildlings that are canibals. The fact that some of clans practise cannibalism doesn’t necessarily means that cannibalism is a part of their culture. We have never seen Tormund, Gilly, Val or Jon during his time with them calling cannibalism a standard practise. 3 minutes ago, divica said: And their wedding ceremony is to kidnap a woman and rape her. I don t see the magnificience... I always thought that eloping was their marriage ceremony. A man proves to be worthy enough to have the woman as his wife, a wife who many times can be with him willingly. It may be brutal but their life is depended on who is the strongest. Why are those marriages worse than a young woman like Lysa, young Rhaelle, Cassandra, or Genna being forced to marry a man she doesn’t want because her parents make her do it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divica Posted April 17, 2021 Share Posted April 17, 2021 These are jon's thoughts Quote Mance gave her a fond smile. "It's a wise woman I've found. A true queen." He turned back to Jon. "Go back and tell them to open their gate and let us pass. If they do, I will give them the horn, and the Wall will stand until the end of days." Open the gate and let them pass. Easy to say, but what must follow? Giants camping in the ruins of Winterfell? Cannibals in the wolfswood, chariots sweeping across the barrowlands, free folk stealing the daughters of shipwrights and silversmiths from White Harbor and fishwives off the Stony Shore? " 6 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said: The fact that some of clans practise cannibalism doesn’t necessarily means that cannibalism is a part of their culture. We have never seen Tormund, Gilly, Val or Jon during his time with them calling cannibalism a standard practise. Cannibalism is a part of the culture of some clans. That is why they are called the cannibal clans... 8 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said: I always thought that eloping was their marriage ceremony. A man proves to be worthy enough to have the woman as his wife, a wife who many times can be with him willingly. It may be brutal but their life is depended on who is the strongest. Why are those marriages worse than a young woman like Lysa, young Rhaelle, Cassandra, or Genna being forced to marry a man she doesn’t want because her parents make her do it? What? No, their marriage cerimony is Quote In marriage, free folk men are expected to be forceful with women, going so far as stealing them from their home or clan. The women, in turn, are expected to put up a fight every step of the way.[5] It is believed that a true man will steal a woman from afar to strengthen the clan. Men must steal daughters, but not wives of other men. When the red wanderer is within the Moonmaid, it is considered a propitious time for a man to steal a woman.[22] This sounds as eloping? NO! It says that wildlings kidnap and rape women in order to marry them. It can't be more clear... Are you really comparing this to negociating a marriage between some man and a familly member that is representing the interests of the woman? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted April 17, 2021 Share Posted April 17, 2021 3 hours ago, divica said: Cannibalism is a part of the culture of some clans. That is why they are called the cannibal clans... As I said some clans not the Free Folk in their entirety. 3 hours ago, divica said: This sounds as eloping? NO! It says that wildlings kidnap and rape women in order to marry them. It can't be more clear... 3 hours ago, divica said: Are you really comparing this to negociating a marriage between some man and a familly member that is representing the interests of the woman? To me is a just a brutal and uncultivated survival of the fittest. Is it savage, brutal and bad yes it is. Inherently evil? Could be. There is something about all of them expected to fight for their survival that is what it makes it a primitive type of natural selection. If you don't fight you will die. Harsh areas and harsh times create harsh people. Now the kidnapping women South of the Wall is different. Yes, I do. The interest of the family doesn’t necessarily go with the wellbeing of the woman. It may be at the best interest of house Erenford for one of their member to marry into the house of their overlord but was it really good for Joyeuse’s well being? Or was the wedding less brutal and abusive for 15 years old Naerys because her family arranged it? Westeros like every other Medieval society are one of the worst place for a woman and in a series of books were we have so many abusive relationships to blame only one culture for something all of them do is not sincere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groo Posted April 17, 2021 Share Posted April 17, 2021 On 9/30/2020 at 7:21 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said: So there is clearly chemistry between them and Jon's vows do end when he dies, but I always took their chemistry to be platonic in nature. So why do so many people take it as a fact that they'll smash? Is it just a mild case of baseless shipping (I say mild because weirdly it's an incest-less ship) or is there more to it? People like to point out that Ghost seems to like Val. Of course Ghost also seems to like Melisandre. Using Ghost as the benchmark then clearly Jon should be with Sam since Ghost went to town licking Sam's face during an intimate heart-to-heart between Jon and Sam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose of Red Lake Posted April 17, 2021 Share Posted April 17, 2021 4 hours ago, divica said: But as a reader you felt sad for frodo? Like was it bad for him to go with the elves? I didn't understand why he had to go, and go to a place that was so unfamiliar to us. You had no idea what was there. It was like he took off on a space ship to a new planet and left everything behind. He didn't get to enjoy the Shire or even grow into old age in Hobbiton like Bilbo did. Later I realized he wasn't just leaving the Shire, he was leaving Middle Earth altogether. That's really sad to me. How soldiers "can't go home again." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose of Red Lake Posted April 17, 2021 Share Posted April 17, 2021 2 hours ago, Groo said: People like to point out that Ghost seems to like Val. Of course Ghost also seems to like Melisandre. Using Ghost as the benchmark then clearly Jon should be with Sam since Ghost went to town licking Sam's face during an intimate heart-to-heart between Jon and Sam. Right. And I would say Ghost is more important than anyone to him. Ghost, and Val, and Tormund, and all his friends beyond the Wall sounds like the Ewoks dancing around in Jedi - not the right tone for sure... Jon + whoever is left in the NW + whoever is left of the Free Folk + Ghost (most important of all) + the North is about as "sweet" for Jon as it will get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divica Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 14 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said: Right. And I would say Ghost is more important than anyone to him. Ghost, and Val, and Tormund, and all his friends beyond the Wall sounds like the Ewoks dancing around in Jedi - not the right tone for sure... Jon + whoever is left in the NW + whoever is left of the Free Folk + Ghost (most important of all) + the North is about as "sweet" for Jon as it will get. yeah, jon would love to live the rest of his life with the weeper, alister thorne, ramsay, roose... If you want a happy ending for jon I would say he would need a purpose, friends, family and the means to live a decent life. And truth be told, I very much doubt he considers val that important to him. He is physicaly atracted to her, but I don t think there is an emotional atachment... And as I said multiple times, jon would be miserable living in wildling society. The only way it could work is if he is a liason between them and the north and helps them change. Like acepting maesters to teach them how to read, smiths for weapons, people to build houses and they need to accept some laws in their society. If anyone thinks jon could live in a society that defends that as long as someone is strong enough to take something they can do it then they are delusional. Jon needs to live among people that respect his sense of honor and values. 1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said: I didn't understand why he had to go, and go to a place that was so unfamiliar to us. You had no idea what was there. It was like he took off on a space ship to a new planet and left everything behind. He didn't get to enjoy the Shire or even grow into old age in Hobbiton like Bilbo did. Later I realized he wasn't just leaving the Shire, he was leaving Middle Earth altogether. That's really sad to me. How soldiers "can't go home again." Ok... I thought it was pretty cool that he was leaving with elves to the land of the elves. It sounded like an awesome place where the full of magic and awesome creatures and history. 4 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said: To me is a just a brutal and uncultivated survival of the fittest. Is it savage, brutal and bad yes it is. Inherently evil? Could be. There is something about all of them expected to fight for their survival that is what it makes it a primitive type of natural selection. If you don't fight you will die. Harsh areas and harsh times create harsh people. Now the kidnapping women South of the Wall is different. Yes, I do. The interest of the family doesn’t necessarily go with the wellbeing of the woman. It may be at the best interest of house Erenford for one of their member to marry into the house of their overlord but was it really good for Joyeuse’s well being? Or was the wedding less brutal and abusive for 15 years old Naerys because her family arranged it? Westeros like every other Medieval society are one of the worst place for a woman and in a series of books were we have so many abusive relationships to blame only one culture for something all of them do is not sincere. You can´t be honest. You are comparing a society where women need to go to bed with weapons because they might be kidnaped, raped and maried against their will with a society where the women's familly can chose who the woman marries? And if someone kidnaps the woman or rapes them then the law is on their side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 3 minutes ago, divica said: You can´t be honest. You are comparing a society where women need to go to bed with weapons because they might be kidnaped, raped and maried against their will with a society where the women's familly can chose who the woman marries? And if someone kidnaps the woman or rapes them then the law is on their side. I am saying that they are equally bad. Family choosing the husband doesn’t mean that the woman will had chosen the same. Women are forced into unwanted, loveless and often abusive marriages with husbands a lot older than the wife and that somehow is ok because her family chose him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divica Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 1 minute ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said: I am saying that they are equally bad. Family choosing the husband doesn’t mean that the woman will had chosen the same. Women are forced into unwanted, loveless and often abusive marriages with husbands a lot older than the wife and that somehow is ok because her family chose him? Yes because the family is suposed to take into account the desires of the woman. After all, famillies are suposed to care about each other. If you are kidnaped and raped your opinion counts 0. You can say that both traditions are bad. But one is many miles better than the other. They aren t even in the same leage... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 2 minutes ago, divica said: Yes because the family is suposed to take into account the desires of the woman. After all, famillies are suposed to care about each other. If you are kidnaped and raped your opinion counts 0. You can say that both traditions are bad. But one is many miles better than the other. They aren t even in the same leage... Tell me how 16ish years old Joyeuse marrying 90 years old Walder was good for her or how Naerys’ marriage with Aegon was beneficial. Unfortunately in Medieval society women were treated like assets and they were being married out to advance their family’s position, fortune and power with little to no care at all about their happiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divica Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 Just now, Lilac & Gooseberries said: Tell me how 16ish years old Joyeuse marrying 90 years old Walder was good for her or how Naerys’ marriage with Aegon was beneficial. Unfortunately in Medieval society women were treated like assets and they were being married out to advance their family’s position, fortune and power with little to no care at all about their happiness. Look, I can t try to diferentiate arranged marriages negotiated between families to kidnaping and marring. If you really think they are the same I think we will never agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 4 hours ago, divica said: Look, I can t try to diferentiate arranged marriages negotiated between families to kidnaping and marring. If you really think they are the same I think we will never agree. Since both of them aren’t with a woman's free will and both of them are loveless and abusive I am sorry but the power and money that are exchanged during the wedding are not enough to make it any better. Both of them make women suffer in order for other parties to be happy. If I am wrong tell me how 16ish years old Joyeuse marrying 90 years old Walder or Naerys’ marriage with Aegon were good for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springwatch Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 3 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said: Since both of them aren’t with a woman's free will and both of them are loveless and abusive I am sorry but the power and money that are exchanged during the wedding are not enough to make it any better. Both of them make women suffer in order for other parties to be happy. If I am wrong tell me how 16ish years old Joyeuse marrying 90 years old Walder or Naerys’ marriage with Aegon were good for them. One big difference is that parents tend to love their offspring, so mostly reject the 'worst' matches. Another difference is that weddings are public, embedded in society. An abused bride will be noticed. Her neglectful parents will, at least by some, be looked down on. The wildling system has no sympathy for abused women: Ygritte suggests they must deal with an abusive partner alone - kill them and escape. Well, that might be ok for spearwives - I can see the system working for them. And obviously it works when the couple already like each other. For the rest - it's just a licence for kidnappers and rapists and warlords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 13 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said: I didn't understand why he had to go, and go to a place that was so unfamiliar to us. You had no idea what was there. It was like he took off on a space ship to a new planet and left everything behind. He didn't get to enjoy the Shire or even grow into old age in Hobbiton like Bilbo did. Later I realized he wasn't just leaving the Shire, he was leaving Middle Earth altogether. That's really sad to me. How soldiers "can't go home again." Tolkien modelled Frodo at the end on fellow soldiers who couldn't recover form combat stress. LOTR is very much a WWI novel, among other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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