Possible change to the Nights Watch vows?

[Back in Black-Snow]

Do any of you think that it's possible we may see a change to the vows those in the Nights Watch swear to uphold and obey?

And if so, what might those changes be and why make them?

Thanks ahead of time.

[Mithras]

I think the change will be far more dramatic and existential. There won't be a Night's Watch, or the Wall or even the North at the end.

[Brandon Ice-Eyes]

3 hours ago, Mithras said:

I think the change will be far more dramatic and existential. There won't be a Night's Watch, or the Wall or even the North at the end.

Yh I agree, i feel like the walls destined to fall and the nights watch will probably cease to exist and might not even be needed come the end of asoiaf

[CamiloRP]

If the night's watch survives, which is a big if, I think the vows will be changed, the text shows the problem with vows many times and it's also about change, so yes. The NW presents itself as merit based, but we see it's not, Jon tries to change that and people complain so by the end there should be a resolution to that, and to the KG vows to, either both organizations cease to be or they both change and adapt to fix their problems.

[TheLastWolf]

King Tyrion is going to write new vows.

Spoiler

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my retirement. VRS also available. I shall take one wife (or three) , hold a hide of land (or few score) , father dozens of children. I shall wear all crowns and win wine and whores. I shall live and die at my post (if pension provided). I am the sword in the darkness (with wildfire torch). I am the watcher on the walls (with Myrish lens). I am the shield that guards the realms of men and my own treasures. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come. 

 

The pledge part was just kidding. 

 

[Moiraine Sedai]

6 hours ago, Travis said:

Do any of you think that it's possible we may see a change to the vows those in the Nights Watch swear to uphold and obey?

And if so, what might those changes be and why make them?

Thanks ahead of time.

There is no need. Those vows have served them and the realm well for thousands of years. You do not throw away a necessary law just to accommodate Jon's personal issues.  Best to throw away Jon instead.

 

[Back in Black-Snow]

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

If the night's watch survives, which is a big if, I think the vows will be changed, the text shows the problem with vows many times and it's also about change, so yes. The NW presents itself as merit based, but we see it's not, Jon tries to change that and people complain so by the end there should be a resolution to that, and to the KG vows to, either both organizations cease to be or they both change and adapt to fix their problems.

I think I agree with this.

Perhaps another question? If the Wall falls and/or (and more specifically) the Nights Watch ceases to exist, do they all die, or are they released from their vows? Or do they just walk away and become deserters?

[Back in Black-Snow]

5 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

There is no need. Those vows have served them and the realm well for thousands of years. You do not throw away a necessary law just to accommodate Jon's personal issues.  Best to throw away Jon instead.

 

I agree with your references to Jon. But the question had/has absolutely nothing to do with Jon or any other specific member of the Nights Watch.

[TheLastWolf]

35 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

King Tyrion is going to write new vows.

  Reveal hidden contents

Rephrasing it on second thoughts. 

King Tyrion is going to write new vows and they are... 

Spoiler

None

Mourn and pray like Summer Islanders and abstain from alcohol like Merret Frey or Captain Haddock (has Herge hid Tintin collections in the Citadel for the Imp. Like Blood and fire) 

 

[Lord Lannister]

How about not making it an organization of criminal conscripts that forces their vows to be recited at swordpoint in most cases?

[argonak]

58 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

There is no need. Those vows have served them and the realm well for thousands of years. You do not throw away a necessary law just to accommodate Jon's personal issues.  Best to throw away Jon instead.

 

Have they though?  Sam found evidence that the vows used to be different.  He's also found evidence that their records are not accurate for time scale at all.  Given Westeros level of tech and literacy, its entirely plausible that their "history" is mostly nonsense pre-Targs.

[CamiloRP]

2 hours ago, Travis said:

I think I agree with this.

Perhaps another question? If the Wall falls and/or (and more specifically) the Nights Watch ceases to exist, do they all die, or are they released from their vows? Or do they just walk away and become deserters?

Impossible to know, I think they'd just be released, and I don't think they'll all die.

[Back in Black-Snow]

2 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

How about not making it an organization of criminal conscripts that forces their vows to be recited at swordpoint in most cases?

Do you care to expound on this? I'm not nit-picking you, I am genuinely interested in what you have to say.

[Back in Black-Snow]

2 hours ago, argonak said:

Have they though?  Sam found evidence that the vows used to be different.  He's also found evidence that their records are not accurate for time scale at all.  Given Westeros level of tech and literacy, its entirely plausible that their "history" is mostly nonsense pre-Targs.

Okay. Go on...

[Azarial]

2 hours ago, argonak said:

Have they though?  Sam found evidence that the vows used to be different.  He's also found evidence that their records are not accurate for time scale at all.  Given Westeros level of tech and literacy, its entirely plausible that their "history" is mostly nonsense pre-Targs.

I agree, but think the issue goes back even farther than before the Targs. 

[Back in Black-Snow]

4 minutes ago, Azarial said:

I agree, but think the issue goes back even farther than before the Targs. 

I agree, and I think the vows should change. I think you should be able to marry and bear sons (and daughters?) for the Wall. There should be a deal with the North where they can settle in the Gift/New Gift. There may or may not be families that have conflicts, which would be expected. But the Lord Commander would still be elected by vote.

Also, it's hard to defend the "realms" of men, if you can't ever choose a side during a conflict in the Realm. Shouldn't they do their oath, and do what is best for the "realms" of men?

[Lord Lannister]

1 hour ago, Travis said:

Do you care to expound on this? I'm not nit-picking you, I am genuinely interested in what you have to say.

Just that somewhere along the line, the Night's Watch stopped being a noble organization that service would pardon past crimes to a penal colony to ship the unwanted. That's when the decline of the Watch began. Even leaving aside the dungeon cleanings, there were very few people there by their free will. Even the leadership caste consisted often of unwanted sons and knights that just happened to fight on the wrong side of a war. Heck Jon was flat out deceived into joining. I can't believe Ned or Benjen wouldn't at least warn him what he was getting into.

They had all the resources they needed to be a powerhouse too. Resources, land, ships, castles. They could've made a killing just harvesting lumber and having their ships at Eastwatch sell it to Braavos. Instead of making it for life, make it where you give 10-20 years of service, you can retire and you get your own land in the Gift under the condition that a portion of the harvest go to the Watch. Not only does that get the Watch fresh crops but it lets those retired men start families and the children are future recruits. They could've been their own mini kingdom. People would *want* to join. 

[Back in Black-Snow]

2 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Just that somewhere along the line, the Night's Watch stopped being a noble organization that service would pardon past crimes to a penal colony to ship the unwanted. That's when the decline of the Watch began. Even leaving aside the dungeon cleanings, there were very few people there by their free will. Even the leadership caste consisted often of unwanted sons and knights that just happened to fight on the wrong side of a war. Heck Jon was flat out deceived into joining. I can't believe Ned or Benjen wouldn't at least warn him what he was getting into.

They had all the resources they needed to be a powerhouse too. Resources, land, ships, castles. They could've made a killing just harvesting lumber and having their ships at Eastwatch sell it to Braavos. Instead of making it for life, make it where you give 10-20 years of service, you can retire and you get your own land in the Gift under the condition that a portion of the harvest go to the Watch. Not only does that get the Watch fresh crops but it lets those retired men start families and the children are future recruits. They could've been their own mini kingdom. People would *want* to join. 

I really like this.

[argonak]

1 hour ago, Travis said:

I agree, and I think the vows should change. I think you should be able to marry and bear sons (and daughters?) for the Wall. There should be a deal with the North where they can settle in the Gift/New Gift. There may or may not be families that have conflicts, which would be expected. But the Lord Commander would still be elected by vote.

Also, it's hard to defend the "realms" of men, if you can't ever choose a side during a conflict in the Realm. Shouldn't they do their oath, and do what is best for the "realms" of men?

The Watch as it is setup is very similar to a monastic order.   This is intentional to keep the Watchmen responsible for their duty, and not distracted by worldly problems.

If the Night's Watch gets involved in political disputes, then they're going to have to pick sides, and eventually they'll pick the wrong side and the Night's Watch will be destroyed.   And who decides what's "best" for the "Realms of Men?"  The LC?  Maybe one whose brother was the loser in a civil war?   The Night's Watch needs to remain separate to survive. 

If they can have kids, then they're going to start worrying about their children's future and inheritence, which (just like in did in the real world church when Priests and Bishops would try and pass their job to the kids they weren't supposed to have) lead to them failing their actual mission.  Again it gets them focused on worldly matters instead of fighting the others.

The Gift was the biggest problem for the order.  Much like when the real world religious orders got land and treasure, they got corrupted by them and lost sight of their original purpose.  The Watch should be given supplies from the rest of Westeros so that they can focus on doing their job, which is to be ready to fight the Others.  By giving them the "gift," the rest of Westeros could wash their hands of supporting them.  And how was the Watch supposed to maintain control over it?

The other big problem for the watch of course, is that it got its job confused somewhere along the line, because it was never meant to protect against wildlings, it was meant to protect against Others.   But most of Westeros stopped believing in them, so to stay relevant they guard the border against wildlings too.

[argonak]

14 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Just that somewhere along the line, the Night's Watch stopped being a noble organization that service would pardon past crimes to a penal colony to ship the unwanted. That's when the decline of the Watch began. Even leaving aside the dungeon cleanings, there were very few people there by their free will. Even the leadership caste consisted often of unwanted sons and knights that just happened to fight on the wrong side of a war. Heck Jon was flat out deceived into joining. I can't believe Ned or Benjen wouldn't at least warn him what he was getting into.

They had all the resources they needed to be a powerhouse too. Resources, land, ships, castles. They could've made a killing just harvesting lumber and having their ships at Eastwatch sell it to Braavos. Instead of making it for life, make it where you give 10-20 years of service, you can retire and you get your own land in the Gift under the condition that a portion of the harvest go to the Watch. Not only does that get the Watch fresh crops but it lets those retired men start families and the children are future recruits. They could've been their own mini kingdom. People would *want* to join. 

The Watch isn't all bad.  For some it is a noble purpose.  Ask Benjen, or Mormont, or Aemon.   I think if anyone deceived Jon, it was himself.

They don't have resources no one else has.  Lumber is pretty common in the north.  Castles are only good for defending territory.  Land is worthless without people to farm it.  I do think permitting men to retire from the watch with a pension of gift line would have been a wise improvement.  Old men aren't of much use to the watch, and you could always call them up in a pinch.  

But I think the Gift would still be abandoned for the same reasons.  Its too risky a place to live with the wildlings as they are and no lords to defend them.  The Watch isn't strong enough to defend the whole strip of territory, so its a bit of a chicken and the egg situation.