Dresden Files spoilers for Peace Talks/Battle Ground

[C.T. Phipps]

39 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Oh fuck off (not you).

Just get on with the story already! A mirror universe? Really? 
What about tying up some loose ends? Cowl and Kumari? Who stopped Little Chicago from blowing up? Does Harry intend to do anything about the Black Council after doing fuck all for over a decade?

Jim said in his interview like two years ago that Harry will get summoned to Earth-B (he didn't call it that) when Harry did something horrible that our Harry didn't around Grave Peril. Evil Harry, complete with goatee (Jim did say that) will then substitute Our Harry for him to deal with the consequences.

99.99% sure that Alt-Murphy will play a big role.

[Derfel Cadarn]

1 hour ago, C.T. Phipps said:

 

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Jim said in his interview like two years ago that Harry will get summoned to Earth-B (he didn't call it that) when Harry did something horrible that our Harry didn't around Grave Peril. Evil Harry, complete with goatee (Jim did say that) will then substitute Our Harry for him to deal with the consequences.

99.99% sure that Alt-Murphy will play a big role.

 

So yawn fuck all to do with the actual plot that’s been mostly stagnating for years, more self-indulgent milk the franchise bullshit?

Alt Murphy can fuck off, keep fucking off, fuck off as far as she can fuck off. And then fuck off some more.

After a 6 year wait for this mostly yawn fest, not interested in more wheel spinning.

[polishgenius]

I don't love the idea of a mirror universe but Butcher's been about the slow burn and dripfeed and advance setup of plots since the very start. I can't imagine it'll be a total bottle episode without a point - he'll get critical information at least, most likely, and also more character turns of course. Butcher's got his issues but his long-game storytelling has been by far his best attribute throughout the series and I wouldn't want that to change at all.

[Gaston de Foix]

2 hours ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Oh fuck off (not you).

Just get on with the story already! A mirror universe? Really? 
What about tying up some loose ends? Cowl and Kumari? Who stopped Little Chicago from blowing up? Does Harry intend to do anything about the Black Council after doing fuck all for over a decade?

 

Spoiler

I can help you on one point.  Mab stopped Little Chicago from blowing up - the Calvin and Hobbs books were a pretty big freaking clue.

The idea for the book after sounds even worse.  Greek gods have turned into professional wrestlers. 

[C.T. Phipps]

Harry has been trying to stop the Black Council. He went after both Nemesis and the Formori that he assumes are related to the issue and managed to deal the Formori a big blow.

Perosnally, I think the Outsiders and Black Council are unrelated or even antagonistic.

My theory is that Justin was part of them but they're an organization that wants to use Black Magic to save the world.

[AverageGuy]

On 10/8/2020 at 12:27 AM, C.T. Phipps said:

Also, as we see with White Court vampires, they seem to choose what energy they feed on as we have Fear vampires and Despair vampires too. Lara prefers Lust for whatever reason, probably because it is her choice to feed on a relatively pleasant emotion.

Okay, so Lara has to either 1) have sex, 2) torture people through fear or despair, or 3) suffer pain, privation, and eventual death. I still don't view this as an empowered choice.

[C.T. Phipps]

5 hours ago, AverageGuy said:

Okay, so Lara has to either 1) have sex, 2) torture people through fear or despair, or 3) suffer pain, privation, and eventual death. I still don't view this as an empowered choice.

Except she doesn't have to have sex as Thomas shows. Just feed on lust.

She chooses to have sex for power and to control her Hunger.

Mind you, being a vampire is a CURSE. In real life, people have to deal with things they don't like. Lara has dealt with her disadvantage and become powerful for it.

[Lord Patrek]

C. T., are you a shareholder in Dresden Enterprise or something!?!

[C.T. Phipps]

15 minutes ago, Lord Patrek said:

C. T., are you a shareholder in Dresden Enterprise or something!?!

I find it funny because I'm actually very critical of the books.

However, my favorite elements are:

* Molly

* Molly/Harry

* The White Court

* Lara Raith

* The Formor (very interesting villains)

* Harry as a rebel against the stuffy White Council

* Harry's antihero status and flirtation with black magic and the monsters

* Kincaid

* The Black Court

* The noir detective stuff

* Chicago

* Muggles vs. Monsters

* The Black Council

* Cowl

My least favorite elements:

* Murphy/Harry

* Mortals losing their status to become superhumans

* Super-Butters

* The lack of other female characters like Elaine, Luccio, Susan, and so on getting written out one after the other.

* Harry isolated from Chicago on Demonreach

* The fairy court business (beyond Mab who is always a treasure)

* The overuse of the Denarians

* Nemesis

* Outsiders

[AverageGuy]

On 10/10/2020 at 4:31 AM, C.T. Phipps said:

Except she doesn't have to have sex as Thomas shows. Just feed on lust.

Thomas experienced privation while attempting it. He had a conversation with Harry about it. It's why he ultimately gave it up.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

2 hours ago, AverageGuy said:

Thomas experienced privation while attempting it. He had a conversation with Harry about it. It's why he ultimately gave it up.

Thomas tried to not feed at all, or feed in very limited notions (like his hairdresser job). That's bit different thing.

White Court Vampire can just hold your hand and cause wave of emotion of his preference to overcome you, which will allow him to consume your life-energy for you.

Also from previous thread:
 

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But none of this explains Luccio. Her reduction in power makes no sense. If the Corpsetaker can jump body to body and keep her powers intact, why can't Luccio? Either it's a major plot hole, or we're going to see her realize she's holding herself back by her discomfort with her body, and she eventually "levels up" to her near-Senior Council level strength.

It seems quite clear that Corpsetaker had a knowledge and skill to turn himself from mortal wizard to mind-swapping parasite, while retaining most of his/her powers by some mix of necromancy and enthralling and mind magic ergo breaking Wizard Laws as anarchist prima-sort. She probably had not put her victims quite comfy in their new bodies.
And as wizards are using will and lifeforce, then new body without preparation is a problem.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

3 hours ago, Wicked Woodpecker of West said:

Thomas tried to not feed at all, or feed in very limited notions (like his hairdresser job). That's bit different thing.

White Court Vampire can just hold your hand and cause wave of emotion of his preference to overcome you, which will allow him to consume your life-energy for you.

Also from previous thread:
 

It seems quite clear that Corpsetaker had a knowledge and skill to turn himself from mortal wizard to mind-swapping parasite, while retaining most of his/her powers by some mix of necromancy and enthralling and mind magic ergo breaking Wizard Laws as anarchist prima-sort. She probably had not put her victims quite comfy in their new bodies.
And as wizards are using will and lifeforce, then new body without preparation is a problem.

Corpsetaker is a female.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

Ah, right her spirit was refered as Lady Shade

[Gaston de Foix]

17 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I find it funny because I'm actually very critical of the books.

However, my favorite elements are:

* Molly

* Molly/Harry

* The White Court

* Lara Raith

* The Formor (very interesting villains)

* Harry as a rebel against the stuffy White Council

* Harry's antihero status and flirtation with black magic and the monsters

* Kincaid

* The Black Court

* The noir detective stuff

* Chicago

* Muggles vs. Monsters

* The Black Council

* Cowl

My least favorite elements:

* Murphy/Harry

* Mortals losing their status to become superhumans

* Super-Butters

* The lack of other female characters like Elaine, Luccio, Susan, and so on getting written out one after the other.

* Harry isolated from Chicago on Demonreach

* The fairy court business (beyond Mab who is always a treasure)

* The overuse of the Denarians

* Nemesis

* Outsiders

I find this funny because except for Harry isolated from Chicago each and every one of the factors on your con list came up in these two novels.  Plenty of your pluses came up too, to be fair. 

There are a couple of factors that I think might have led me to grade these books on a curve (beyond the wait). 

When I discovered the Dresden Files I think Changes had already been published.  So I really only waited for Ghost Story, Cold Days and Skin Game (not even sure about the first).  I gobbled them up and that meant I could skate past shortcomings of the novel to the next one.  Also, Butcher quite boldly melds together myth, magic and detecting and he should be given quite a long rope to experiment. 

But even accounting for these factors, these books are ramshackle.  They needed much more work. 

 

 

[C.T. Phipps]

36 minutes ago, Gaston de Foix said:

I find this funny because except for Harry isolated from Chicago each and every one of the factors on your con list came up in these two novels.  Plenty of your pluses came up too, to be fair. 

There are a couple of factors that I think might have led me to grade these books on a curve (beyond the wait). 

When I discovered the Dresden Files I think Changes had already been published.  So I really only waited for Ghost Story, Cold Days and Skin Game (not even sure about the first).  I gobbled them up and that meant I could skate past shortcomings of the novel to the next one.  Also, Butcher quite boldly melds together myth, magic and detecting and he should be given quite a long rope to experiment. 

But even accounting for these factors, these books are ramshackle.  They needed much more work.

It's my favorite book since Changes and much better than Peace Talks itself but my opinion is there is much to dislike about Battle Ground. The irony is that it's stuff that I don't see anyone else talking about and I feel like the elements a lot of people dislike are ones that are the strongest part of the book.

What did I dislike about Battle Ground?

1:] Marcone becoming a Denarian

I hated the power up Butters got and it's pretty much universally agreed that it's ruined his character. I feel the exact same thing would have happened with Murphy as a Valkyrie and I was so relieved when Butcher didn't do that. Marcone becoming a Denarian also removes like 90% of his interesting qualities. He was the mortal who stood against gods and now he's just another one of the Devil's meat puppets. Even if he's a partner with his demon, he's just a dimestore discount version of Nicodemus now. Which makes no sense because Nicodemus is still around.

2:] Nemesis and Outsiders

Mind-control is one of the laziest ways to do a villain and I kind of was terrified that Nemesis would prove to be behind the Black Council because that would mean they have no motivations other than to be EVIL because they're POSSESSED. Mindless one-dimensional evil is the worst kind of evil. I actually feel a little better that Jim has apparently downgraded Nemesis into just one single Outsider possessing people and hope that it can be dealt with before the apocalypse is over. That doesn't mean that I don't think it's a poor threat compared to, say, Cowl who can articulate why he's a bad guy.

3:] The Drakul Fight

I feel like Harry and the Drakul's fight is the proverbial Big Lipped Alligator Moment (see TV tropes) and that it also breaks continuity. The Drakul was not related to the Black Court in previous books. That was Dracula, his son. The Drakul shows up, acts like Dracula in every way (I think Jim forgot he's not Dracula), and kills more Wardens to help Ethniu in a way that feels unrelated to the rest of the story. He also gets away at the end along with Mavra. I feel like we're getting to Batman levels of extant villains not being dealt with permanently.

4:] No Thomas Resolution

You couldn't speak with your brother in the fridge. Harry?

5:] The Masquerade Breaking except not

Godzilla and an Army of Deep Ones attacks Chicago in the middle of the evening with Mab warning everyone to stay in their homes and the Masquerade is still standing at the end? B.S. I think it's the right decision to keep the Masquerade but if you're going to not fire that gun then you shouldn't have put it on the mantle in the first place. Basically, I'm happy to get back to Harry Dresden, P.I. but you need either a huge time skip or multiple books to deal with the fallout.

[polishgenius]

1 hour ago, C.T. Phipps said:

He was the mortal who stood against gods and now he's just another one of the Devil's meat puppets. Even if he's a partner with his demon, he's just a dimestore discount version of Nicodemus now. Which makes no sense because Nicodemus is still around.

I'm not a huge fan of Marcone-as-Denarian but I am absolutely certain that this is not how it's gonna play out. He's gonna become the mortal who stands against the devil.


 

 

1 hour ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Godzilla and an Army of Deep Ones attacks Chicago in the middle of the evening with Mab warning everyone to stay in their homes and the Masquerade is still standing at the end? B.S. I think it's the right decision to keep the Masquerade but if you're going to not fire that gun then you shouldn't have put it on the mantle in the first place. Basically, I'm happy to get back to Harry Dresden, P.I. but you need either a huge time skip or multiple books to deal with the fallout.

I have no idea where people are getting the idea that the masquerade is still standing. The end of the book describes attempts to keep it standing, and portrays that in the rest of the world, it's shuddering on still because Ethniu broke all the cameras, which, like, makes total sense. But in Govt terms it's probably down and in Chicago it's broken incontrovertibly and with finality and Chicago is being deliberately no-man's-landed. Which goes to my second point of I don't see why you think that there won't be multiple books dealing with the fallout. And a timeskip, since Dresden timeskips between every single book.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

From previous thread:
 

Quote

Harry dies at the end of the series and gets to meet Murphy in the afterlife. Simples. Like, I'm with Pat that I cannot see Butcher leaving her permanently dead but he's also too careful a long-term writer to state such a specific rule if his intent was to break it. Which only leaves one option really.

Or you know - Ragnarok, utter destruction of Valhalla, Odin is eaten by a Wolf (Drakul) and bascially remaining Einehneh-Dead!Marines are not bound by rules. Or... who only knows what kind of rules Dresden gonna break. For all I know in last books he can rewrite realities like madman,
TBH I see no reason to make Murphy Dead!Marine other than her return... and all wars broke loose.

I mean why would she even agree to join Dead!Marines? I mean sure she wanted to keep fighting and keep fighting but... Vadderung is being of dubious morality. I mean for all she knows she can spend all her job after waiting 100 years in service or vampires, occult gangsters and wicked fae, it's not like joining Dead!Marines is joining Host of Parousia lead by Michael the Archangel. (Unless Vadderung is Michael and all Valhalla is ruse to build some nice army here)

 

Quote

He was the mortal who stood against gods and now he's just another one of the Devil's meat puppets. Even if he's a partner with his demon, he's just a dimestore discount version of Nicodemus now. Which makes no sense because Nicodemus is still around.

Well maybe that is to show, that Marcone is really evil man. And evil corrupts even if it's calm and collected evil, who pretends to be professional. 
For all masks and pose, Marcone had to know - he is quite squishy for the game, and there is no certainity he'd not be just sucker punched by some random asshole.
Like really you ask why Devil - ancient spirit of corruption managed to corrupt power-hungry gangster?
You thought he was beyond such things. Ha.

 

Quote

2:] Nemesis and Outsiders

Mind-control is one of the laziest ways to do a villain and I kind of was terrified that Nemesis would prove to be behind the Black Council because that would mean they have no motivations other than to be EVIL because they're POSSESSED. Mindless one-dimensional evil is the worst kind of evil. I actually feel a little better that Jim has apparently downgraded Nemesis into just one single Outsider possessing people and hope that it can be dealt with before the apocalypse is over. That doesn't mean that I don't think it's a poor threat compared to, say, Cowl who can articulate why he's a bad guy.

I agree He Who Walks Beside (I sort of guessed Nemesis is Walker in CD and presumed He Who Walks Between but this is way better) as mind controler is bit meh. It was much funnier with Maeve, when he sort of gave her freedom to finally overcome her mantle.
But I really doubt Cowl is Outsider crony. He rather tries to god!himself up because he knows BAT is coming.

 

Quote

The Drakul was not related to the Black Court in previous books. That was Dracula, his son. The Drakul shows up, acts like Dracula in every way (I think Jim forgot he's not Dracula), and kills more Wardens to help Ethniu in a way that feels unrelated to the rest of the story. He also gets away at the end along with Mavra. I feel like we're getting to Batman levels of extant villains not being dealt with permanently.

Though he is shown as something else than Black Court and I think WOJ is that he is something else, some really bad shit in human body - I assume Starborn Drakul tried to empower his star-powers in bad way as well.
So far I dunno - but as books suggested if I remember that Dracula has been shanked, I think his dad probably just took his new Vampire friends from him, in Lord Raith style, and become de facto Black King without becoming vampire at all.

But I agree his appearance is bit meh, though in the end lot of Ettniu supporters are new to story.

The thing I'm really annoyed is that really we should get Justine-hunt book now, but as always Harry would spend year doing nothing until his Mirror-Mirror-White-Wedding-Jumping-Between-Realities starts. And I really hope it gonna that Darth Harry reality will be like... fake reality, some serious ruse, shadows-of-things-to-be, because Lord, for some reason I really wanted alt-reality in Spider-Man 2 and Mysterio being not a bad guy, but here... I really despise the idea.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I hate Marcone as a Denarian too.  It would be kind of interesting if he had touched the coin to get a shadow for his own use the way Dresden used Lash as an adviser.

[C.T. Phipps]

Bob already confirmed that the Dresden Files universe has a multiverse when he said Spider-Man was real in some universe.

[Lord Patrek]

For those wondering how good sales would be, BG debuted at number 2 on the NYT list.

So even though PT wasn't exactly what readers wanted it to be, people still lined up to buy the sequel.