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Bowen Marsh and Jaime Lannister


The Coonster

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On 10/7/2020 at 11:15 AM, Springwatch said:

Yeah, but the issue is they have lost faith in Jon.

Ramay really let rip in that letter, didn't hold back in sharing his feelings. So - he really, really hates Jon. He's neutral about the NW.

Look at what he's done since he became Roose' heir to be:

  • Sacked WF and murdered all the male inhabitants despite being Theon's ally
  • Accepted the surrender of 150+ IB and then crucified them.
  • Murdered Hornwood soliders, kidnapped lady HW, raped her, and left her to starve in a tower
  • started a war over Hornwood with Manderly 

Nothing Ramsay does to the NW is going to be anything but brutal

On 10/7/2020 at 11:15 AM, Springwatch said:

The Dreadfort garrison belong to Roose. The Freys always look out for themselves. Any scheme to attack the Wall has got to pass the sanity test, and it really doesn't.

Actually not really. The key to holding the north is FArya. If he "has" to lead an army to the NW to get her back, Roose would absolutely let that happen. He knows how precarious his situation is and Lady Dustin confirms as much.

On 10/7/2020 at 11:15 AM, Springwatch said:

The wildings would be good at raiding and ambushing, but could they stop an army? Stannis showed they can't win an open battle against a regular army, and obviously they'd be hopeless at attacking Winterfell - they haven't even got experience of castles.

Raiding and ambushing a column of soldiers in unfamiliar territory is pretty much the ideal scenario for the wildlings. Will it completely stop the army? No idea bc we don't know numbers or quality of who goes. I didn't mention a pitched battle bc it would be suicide and I doubt the wildlings have the stomach for a second.

On 10/7/2020 at 11:15 AM, Springwatch said:

If Jon had been talking like this, he might have kept the confidence of this brothers. He didn't even try.

As far as we can tell he has the confidence of most of his brothers. Only 5-6 took part in the killing. That is obviously subject to change though

On 10/7/2020 at 11:15 AM, Springwatch said:

He might, but he's not on his own. (Can't believe there's been no father-son kinslaying in the Bolton family yet.)

That's entirely speculation on your part. There's a lot more to suggest Ramsay would kill everyone and burn the place. The strongest argument against it is that Ramsay might not have written the letter.

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Jaime has done too much evil to ever be a hero.  He will always be remembered as the man who killed his own king and the one who threw a little boy from the window.  History will remember Bowen Marsh kindly.  There were enough people present during Jon's speech to testify on Marsh's behalf.

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The entire Bowen Marsh is a awesome great guy and Jon snow is Aerys reborn seems utterly bizarre to me. Sure some of Jon's decisions are unpopular but are they so disastrous to invoke the comparison to the guy who decided blowing up King's Landing was a great idea. If anything the Watch is in a stronger position when Jon is stabbed compared to when he was elected.  Sure he may have technically declared an intent to break his vows. Dubiously. Even Jon isn't sure if what he is doing is breaking his vows and the argument could be made that his desire to go south and have Ramsay Bolton answer for his letter is a reasonable response to a series of insults and treats. Of course this assumes the letter is from Ramsay Bolton and not say Bown Marsh trying to provoke Jon into an act to justify his killing. That would be is Jamie Lannister convinced the Mad King to plant the wildfyre and then killed him over it.

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3 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

Jaime has done too much evil to ever be a hero.  He will always be remembered as the man who killed his own king

To the ignorant smallfolk maybe (hope you aren't one of 'em?). But we know better and so does Brienne and so will many. His future actions may redeem him if he does something very great and if it reaches to everyone. It would be lame for the author to end all the effort of the bad-to-good character arc by killing him at LSH's hands. No. something else will happen.

3 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

and the one who threw a little boy from the window. 

:lmao:Only Bran knows that 

3 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

History will remember Bowen Marsh kindly.

You mean ya'll Stark dislike-ers (tired of haters)?

3 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

There were enough people present during Jon's speech to testify on Marsh's behalf.

Testify to whom? All the wildlings are on Jon's side. Most of the Watch too. Last I checked, only the assassins and their prejudiced lackeys ("wildlings=not enemies, Others= true enemies" didn't get through their thick heads) are against Jon.

Besides, nothing will be remembered of Poor Bowen and Co. if Tormund and gang decide they have lived long enough. The King and Queen's men can't interfere even if they wished to. Simply outnumbered. And they aren't ready to die for Bowen like the wildlings are for Jon. NW rules are there to consider. Assassinating your LC isn't allowed ususally, i think. No more BS about how wrong and evil Jon was. Replied to that already.

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On 10/4/2020 at 9:49 AM, James Steller said:

If Jaime is any indication, it’s clear that no good deed goes unpunished. Also, the idea of “good” is highly subjective.

Good can be subjective.  Sure.  The disastrous results of Jon's interference with the Bolton's affairs are not.  

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1 minute ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Good can be subjective.  Sure.  The disastrous results of Jon's interference with the Bolton's affairs are not.  

Have you read the books? The Boltons are objectively evil, especially Ramsay. Jon was right to be opposed to them, nobody actually liked those murderous traitors. They only tolerated them for the same reason they tolerated House Frey. Roose will not win the loyalty of the North, not even Barbrey Dustin. Jon only planned to march out after Ramsay threatened to break the ancient codes by attacking the Nights Watch. And any sane person would see that Ramsay needs to be stopped, even if you only know about a fraction of the stuff he’s done.  

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19 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

The disastrous results of Jon's interference with the Bolton's affairs are not.  

Care to explain them? All you Stark dislikers say the same thing. Jon's every action right from him pissing to shitting caused Armageddon. Apocalypse. Ragnarok. Others invasion. BS

No (biased) interpretation or speculation. Cold hard facts. Explain why 

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23 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Look at what he's done since he became Roose' heir to be:

  • Sacked WF and murdered all the male inhabitants despite being Theon's ally
  • Accepted the surrender of 150+ IB and then crucified them.
  • Murdered Hornwood soliders, kidnapped lady HW, raped her, and left her to starve in a tower
  • started a war over Hornwood with Manderly 

Nothing Ramsay does to the NW is going to be anything but brutal

All things that Roose either wanted, or didn't care about. Ramsay is not independent of his father.

This was the response when Ramsay tried to say Theon/Reek was his personal property:

Roose seemed amused by that. "All you have I gave you. You would do well to remember that, bastard. [...]"

23 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Actually not really. The key to holding the north is FArya. If he "has" to lead an army to the NW to get her back, Roose would absolutely let that happen. He knows how precarious his situation is and Lady Dustin confirms as much.

The marriage is in the bag already. Roose is a player and a deep thinker, as we know - he'd get fArya back through some kind of trap or treachery - that is his method of operation. Not a mad charge through winter to destroy the very forces that protect them.

23 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Raiding and ambushing a column of soldiers in unfamiliar territory is pretty much the ideal scenario for the wildlings. Will it completely stop the army? No idea bc we don't know numbers or quality of who goes. I didn't mention a pitched battle bc it would be suicide and I doubt the wildlings have the stomach for a second.

Fine and good. But step one - send patrols out to see if an army is actually coming. Then send the wildlings out in the snow.  (But this isn't Jon's scheme anyway.)

23 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

As far as we can tell he has the confidence of most of his brothers. Only 5-6 took part in the killing. That is obviously subject to change though

We don't know. But the stewards aren't known for their daring, so I think they expect the support of a big enough majority.

23 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

That's entirely speculation on your part. There's a lot more to suggest Ramsay would kill everyone and burn the place. The strongest argument against it is that Ramsay might not have written the letter.

I'm sure he'd want to. No-one else wants to, and even his best friends are picked and paid for by Roose.

I've not followed any of the Pink Letter theories, but maybe there's one like this :):

Roose is secretly worshipping the Others. He's not really bothered by his armies dying of cold and exhaustion, because they will all rise as wights and be far more obedient as a bonus. The Others send Roose a prophetic vision, showing him that if he writes and sends the Pink Letter, then Ramsay and Jon will destroy each other. That removes two claims to the lordship of Winterfell, which can now go to Roose's new son by Walda.

Or maybe it's just Ramsay having a mad rant about the Wall, and everyone in Winterfell ignores him.

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9 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Bowen Marsh was crying when he stabbed Jon. 

Another reason to examine Marsh's confrontation with The Weeper. I may be wrong, but I think characters take on characteristics of the people they fight, stab or kill. (And I suspect that Wargs and skinchangers can absorb "combat magic" through the animals they occupy.) Marsh fought the grim Weeper shortly before his attack on Jon Snow. 

13 hours ago, Rosetta Stone said:

What these men did will become myth.  An Ice Age is coming and the details of what they did and why will be lost to time.  Jaime's tale could become something like the Bloodstone emperor's.  Bowen will be the Joramun to future scholars. 

Yes. Exactly. It is already a repeat of a myth or legend we have been told and it will be added to that legend or myth, causing future tellers of the tale to muddy the details or the timeline. The unreliable narrator is partly caused by the combination of tales from different eras and sources.

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3 minutes ago, Seams said:

Another reason to examine Marsh's confrontation with The Weeper. I may be wrong, but I think characters take on characteristics of the people they fight, stab or kill. (And I suspect that Wargs and skinchangers can absorb "combat magic" through the animals they occupy.) Marsh fought the grim Weeper shortly before his attack on Jon Snow. 

Oh god, I completely missed this connection, and yes its makes perfect sense. 

But what do you mean by Marsh fought the weeper before (killing) Jon? 

I just reread ADWD and I didn't find anything mentioning that. 

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12 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Oh god, I completely missed this connection, and yes its makes perfect sense. 

But what do you mean by Marsh fought the weeper before (killing) Jon? 

I just reread ADWD and I didn't find anything mentioning that. 

It's in A Storm of Swords. From the wiki:

After Jeor Mormont's death at Craster's Keep, Bowen temporarily takes command of the Night's Watch until the election of a new Lord Commander. Appointing the ancient Ser Wynton Stout to command in his absence, Bowen leaves Castle Black to face a diversion by the wildlings who lead him to the Bridge of Skulls.[2] There, Bowen confronts the Weeper and inflicts upon him a bloody defeat costing heavy losses to the Night's Watch. Injured, Bowen is healed at the Shadow Tower and brought back to Castle Black by Ser Denys Mallister. On the way there, they meet and join with Samwell Tarly and Gilly.[9]

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