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Bowen Marsh and Jaime Lannister


The Coonster

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9 hours ago, Seams said:

Another reason to examine Marsh's confrontation with The Weeper. I may be wrong, but I think characters take on characteristics of the people they fight, stab or kill. (And I suspect that Wargs and skinchangers can absorb "combat magic" through the animals they occupy.) Marsh fought the grim Weeper shortly before his attack on Jon Snow. 

Yes. Exactly. It is already a repeat of a myth or legend we have been told and it will be added to that legend or myth, causing future tellers of the tale to muddy the details or the timeline. The unreliable narrator is partly caused by the combination of tales from different eras and sources.

Bowen Marsh was crying because he is a good man forced to do something illegal.  I don't think he had any hatred towards Jon.  I know Jon's fans would like to sell the idea that Bowen Marsh had it out for Jon.  I don't buy that.  Bowen Marsh did what he had to do to stop Jon Snow from doing something much worse than the NK ever did.  Jon was about to take the wildlings to war against the people of the kingdom.  The watch is involved because Jon is the commander.  He already got the watch involved when he sent Brother Mance Rayder for Arya.  Going to war with Ramsay would have taken that to another level of inappropriate.  

 

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On 10/4/2020 at 10:08 PM, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

@Nathan Stark

There's nothing wrong with disagreement.  As a matter of fact, the story and the characters were written to generate disagreement because they are grey.  The fandom come from different places and cultures.  The diversity is there in terms of age, gender, ethnicity, life experiences, personality traits, etc.  Just like the real world because the fandom come from the real world.  Disagreement in the real world is inevitable.  Where things go south is when fans start taking disagreements beyond the reasonable.  I have been here since 2012 and have seen all kinds of silly and immature stunts from some of the fandom.  Emphasis on some.  There are among the fans people who try to intimidate those who disagree with them on the forum.  I have seen it always backfire.  Always.  Good thing too.  Some of these fans scheme and even try to get the others who disagree with them off the forums.  Again, they always fail.  Those few who do those silly things are, for their sake, hopefully middle schoolers.  Because it is truly sad if they are adults.  (Purposefully misspelling names do not detract from that character, folks).  There are strong people on both sides.  You already know the sides.   For example, Daenerys Targaryen is my top character, the one who I root for.  Another fan may prefer one of the Starks or Jon Snow.  There will be disagreements. 

It's about time somebody brought this up.  Good topic for discussion. 

:cheers:

:bowdown:

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On 10/9/2020 at 8:54 PM, Rosetta Stone said:

What these men did will become myth.  An Ice Age is coming and the details of what they did and why will be lost to time.  Jaime's tale could become something like the Bloodstone emperor's.  Bowen will be the Joramun to future scholars. 

Food for thought.  :cheers:

All of it may not matter when darkness cover the land.  But.  There will be a big fall out in the near term.  The black brothers will be fighting chaos as they attempt to stop the wild ones from marching out in force to attack winterfell and Roose. 

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On 10/6/2020 at 12:03 AM, Van Gogh said:

Jaime is still a villain.  He won Brienne over but that means nothing.  He can have a good side and still be predominantly bad.  Hitler loved dogs but that does not wash out his negative qualities.  Bowen is not a villain.  He was a man of honor and duty.  Put yourself in his place.  Your leader just admitted to basically pardoning Mance Rayder for his crimes and sending him on a mission to get his sister from Ramsay Bolton.  Jon further announces his plan to lead wildlings to battle against the warden of the north and his son.  You would have killed Jon too.  Bowen is a good man.  Jaime is tragic by choice. 

EDIT: Brief hero moment is a yes.  These guys are not the heroic types by their nature.  Jaime is a self-fulfillment man who cared nothing about rights and wrongs.  Bowen is a conservative man who kept to his duties.  They just stepped up to the plate at the right moment.  I guess it is the moment and the decision which make heroes.  Poor Bowen will make Arya's list and Jaime may not live through LSH's brand of justice. 

Jaime will not die until she has a chance to talk to Cersei.  The reader will know whether he has turned the leaf or only pretending at honor.

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On 10/12/2020 at 7:25 PM, James West said:

Food for thought.  :cheers:

All of it may not matter when darkness cover the land.  But.  There will be a big fall out in the near term.  The black brothers will be fighting chaos as they attempt to stop the wild ones from marching out in force to attack winterfell and Roose. 

Let the wildlings leave as long as they only take their own horses.  The NW can always send a raven to warn Roose.  There will be enough time to prepare an ambush.  

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On 10/12/2020 at 7:25 PM, James West said:

Food for thought.  :cheers:

All of it may not matter when darkness cover the land.  But.  There will be a big fall out in the near term.  The black brothers will be fighting chaos as they attempt to stop the wild ones from marching out in force to attack winterfell and Roose. 

The wildlings have the advantage in numbers.  He doesn't have the numbers to stop them.  

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On 10/5/2020 at 11:24 AM, TedBear said:

Or the other way around, if Jon and Dany and another "dragon head" are going to lead the forces of the living (fire) against the WW (ice) which is likely to happen, then how would a person who murdered Jon be seen?

I don't think the story will take that direction. 

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On 10/7/2020 at 7:17 PM, Pontius Pilate said:

Jon's apology team conveniently forgot the reason why the Pink Letter was written in the first place.  Jon sent Mance to bring his sister to him.  Jon had no right to do that.  Jon was completely wrong to even contemplate such foolishness.  He is a lord commander of the watch and should never interfere.  He should have prayed for Arya and left it at that.  Arya is not worth the instability it would create at the wall.  

 

On 10/7/2020 at 7:19 PM, Pontius Pilate said:

Samwell would be crying a river while he joined Bowen Marsh in taking Jon out of power.  He was a friend of Jon but he knows the importance of keeping things stable at the wall.  Jon's feelings for Arya is irrelevant compared to their duties. 

Samwell would know the limits of friendship.  He knows the importance of defending the wall.  He would agree with Bowen but may not have the balls to knife Jon.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 10/4/2020 at 8:51 AM, The Coonster said:

Both  men were put into a bad situation by an unstable leader.  They had to take drastic action to avoid a disaster.  They had their moments of heroism.

Aerys was about to unleash hellfire on Kingslanding to take down the looters and the sackers along with the innocent citizens of the city.  Jon's erratic decisions had already caused enough damage to the Night's Watch.  Bowen was forced into action to prevent Jon from causing further harm to the Night's Watch and to the world of the living.

Jaime Lannister is not a hero.  He is not even close to hero most of the time.  But we can all agree that his decision was the correct one on that day.  Bowen Marsh had been a loyal man to the Night's Watch.  I would even say a really good and dutiful man.  Jon was unable to let go of his feelings for the Starks and was willing to throw the world away in order to help one little sister.  He was about to lead an army of wildlings against the Warden of the North in order to rescue his sister.  A clear violation of the purpose of the Night's Watch and would have resulted in catastrophe.  Bowen Marsh did what any loyal man of the watch should and would do.  Remove Jon Snow from power.  Jon was already on a power trip at that time.  

Jaime's deed was revealed to Brienne and he became a different man in her eyes.  A tragic person rather than an outright villain.  Bowen Marsh should be recognized for his courageous deed in removing a very dangerous and desgtructive Lord Commander Snow.  I think Bowen will go down as an unsung hero.  

The one thing they have in common was having a wacko superior that had to be stopped.  Bowen's pinky finger has more character than Jaime's soul. 

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14 minutes ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Marsh is a good man.  You might not agree with what he did to Jon but Marsh is an ethical man.  Jaime is not.  

Marsh is not inherently evil, and he may have what he thinks are good intentions. And you know what they say, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". The main problem w/ Marsh for me isn't even the assassination attempt on Jon. It's the fact that he's a coward, and definitely not the sharpest knife in the drawer. He wanted to sit atop the Wall and block all the tunnels, like that's not the dumbest idea ever. And to make it even worse, he's a racist xenophobe. He's also a spineless lickspittle who wants to please Tywin Lannister. So, really, I have absolutely nothing good to say about him.

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 10/31/2020 at 6:06 AM, Son of Man said:

The one thing they have in common was having a wacko superior that had to be stopped.  Bowen's pinky finger has more character than Jaime's soul. 

Jaime's phantom fingers have more character than.... how much ever (Poor Loyal) Bowen can count to. All he's good for anyway. And not too great at that, seeing his errors in counting frequently. 

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On 10/31/2020 at 2:26 PM, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Marsh is a good man.  You might not agree with what he did to Jon but Marsh is an ethical man.  Jaime is not.  

Jaime is a villain.  A very dark villain.  His defenders seem to forget, he sparked the war of the five fools after tossing Bran from the window.  Bowen Marsh has done no such thing and seems like a man of duty.  Something which cannot be said for Jaime.  

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On 12/6/2020 at 8:01 PM, Rondo said:

Jaime is a villain.  A very dark villain.  His defenders seem to forget, he sparked the war of the five fools after tossing Bran from the window

Nope

On 12/6/2020 at 8:01 PM, Rondo said:

Bowen Marsh has done no such thing and seems like a man of duty.  Something which cannot be said for Jaime

Noooooooo...ope. 

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  • 1 month later...
On 10/4/2020 at 8:51 AM, The Coonster said:

Both  men were put into a bad situation by an unstable leader.  They had to take drastic action to avoid a disaster.  They had their moments of heroism.

Aerys was about to unleash hellfire on Kingslanding to take down the looters and the sackers along with the innocent citizens of the city.  Jon's erratic decisions had already caused enough damage to the Night's Watch.  Bowen was forced into action to prevent Jon from causing further harm to the Night's Watch and to the world of the living.

Jaime Lannister is not a hero.  He is not even close to hero most of the time.  But we can all agree that his decision was the correct one on that day.  Bowen Marsh had been a loyal man to the Night's Watch.  I would even say a really good and dutiful man.  Jon was unable to let go of his feelings for the Starks and was willing to throw the world away in order to help one little sister.  He was about to lead an army of wildlings against the Warden of the North in order to rescue his sister.  A clear violation of the purpose of the Night's Watch and would have resulted in catastrophe.  Bowen Marsh did what any loyal man of the watch should and would do.  Remove Jon Snow from power.  Jon was already on a power trip at that time.  

Jaime's deed was revealed to Brienne and he became a different man in her eyes.  A tragic person rather than an outright villain.  Bowen Marsh should be recognized for his courageous deed in removing a very dangerous and desgtructive Lord Commander Snow.  I think Bowen will go down as an unsung hero.  

Those who think Jaime is a moral guy should read this subject from last year.  Jaime is as dark as a normal man can be.  Euron and Ramsay are not normal. 

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  • 1 month later...
On 1/15/2021 at 1:13 AM, Ewan McGregor said:

Jaime killed Aerys only when Lannister forces where sacking the city.  If he did do it for the wildfire and not for personal gain he would have done it earilier.  Bowen did what was right when was right

He was mad at Aerys for robbing him at a chance for glory at the great tourney in Harrenhal.  Jaime is not above petty family loyalty.  He was going to take his father's side no matter who was right.  Jaime might have prevented the deaths of thousands during the Sack of KL, including his father's and the Lannister troops,  but what he did to Bran to start the WOTFK made up for it in the death toll.  He saved thousands but killed thousands to hide his affair with Cersei.  I say the balance scale for Jaime is tipped all the way to the evil end.  Jon was the one who was ready to get thousands killed before Bowen stopped him.  It's a different situation for two very different men, Jaime and Bowen. 

Jaime = bad.  Bowen = good.

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