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The Coonster

Bowen Marsh and Jaime Lannister

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Wait, let me get this right, you're comparing Jon Snow to the Mad King? That's insane logic, since Jon bent over backwards to save as many people as possible in ADWD, while the Mad King adopted the policy of "if I die, everyone is coming with me".

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18 minutes ago, sifth said:

Wait, let me get this right, you're comparing Jon Snow to the Mad King? That's insane logic, since Jon bent over backwards to save as many people as possible in ADWD, while the Mad King adopted the policy of "if I die, everyone is coming with me".

It makes perfect sense, trust me. Jon is as insane as Aerys, as cruel as Maegor and as devious as Littlefinger.

There are countless martyrs that can attest to that, Janos Slynt, Bowen Marsh and who can forget the greatest victim to Jon's enormities of them all, Ramsay Bolton. Poor guy...

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On 10/30/2020 at 8:36 PM, Son of Man said:

The one thing they have in common was having a wacko superior that had to be stopped.  Bowen's pinky finger has more character than Jaime's soul. 

:)

Bowen is actually right for stabbing Jon. It may cost him his life but it was something which needed to get done. Jon was a disaster.

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3 hours ago, sifth said:

Wait, let me get this right, you're comparing Jon Snow to the Mad King? That's insane logic, since Jon bent over backwards to save as many people as possible in ADWD, while the Mad King adopted the policy of "if I die, everyone is coming with me".

It’s difficult to explain. It is all about life and vigour.

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We know what Jamie's motivation actually was. We don't know for sure yet what Bowen's motivation is nor what the other mutineers were thinking. There's some inherent speculation to all of this. I'm skeptical of the seemingly clean parallel. Jamie knew for quite awhile that Aerys was planting wildfire all over the city and might set it off. When the moment came Jamie quickly intervened by himself. There also wasn't much time to lose. In Bowen's case he didn't know beforehand that Jon was going to march off to Winterfell. That wasn't something that had been building for awhile. Jon also wasn't leaving right that minute. People could have tried talking Jon out of it first. To say that Jon's desertion was the only reason Bowen attacked is to say that between Jon's announcing his intention in the Shield Hall and his going outside to check on the disturbance that Bowen a) immediately decided to kill Jon, b) had the time to round up a bunch of others and explain to them why they should suddenly kill Jon, and c) the others immediately decided that instead of talking to Jon that they'd help Bowen kill him right then and there. Is this really that good of a parallel?

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1 hour ago, Groo said:

We know what Jamie's motivation actually was. We don't know for sure yet what Bowen's motivation is nor what the other mutineers were thinking. There's some inherent speculation to all of this. I'm skeptical of the seemingly clean parallel. Jamie knew for quite awhile that Aerys was planting wildfire all over the city and might set it off. When the moment came Jamie quickly intervened by himself. There also wasn't much time to lose. In Bowen's case he didn't know beforehand that Jon was going to march off to Winterfell. That wasn't something that had been building for awhile. Jon also wasn't leaving right that minute. People could have tried talking Jon out of it first. To say that Jon's desertion was the only reason Bowen attacked is to say that between Jon's announcing his intention in the Shield Hall and his going outside to check on the disturbance that Bowen a) immediately decided to kill Jon, b) had the time to round up a bunch of others and explain to them why they should suddenly kill Jon, and c) the others immediately decided that instead of talking to Jon that they'd help Bowen kill him right then and there. Is this really that good of a parallel?

Hi Groo,

 

a)  It was a sudden decision by all of the men.

b)  It doesn't take a long time to reach a conclusion that your lord commander had gone nuts and needs to be stopped.  Jon made a speech in which he announced his intentions.  The attack was awkward and poorly planned because it was a quick reaction to Jon's speech.  They all knew what to do.  Jon was not going to listen.  He might execute them for insubordination if they had tried to talk them out of it.  

c)  You have to see Jon from their eyes.  Jon recently murdered a sworn brother of the watch for a minor act of disrespect.  Jon's handling or mishandling of justice was witnessed by many.  He looked erratic.  He doesn't look like a man who would listen to reason.  

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Jons assassination was about 5 minutes after he read the pink letter, nowhere near enough time to prepare for the hit in the way they did it. The four killers even had the calm and ritualistic 'for the watch' moment when they did it. BM had alot of other reasons for mutiny, but desertion was not one of them. It almost makes the pink letter seem like part of a setup, a martyr moment to justify what they were up to.

Jaime had a very clear reason for what he did. As for if he could have spared Aerys and killed the pyromancer, I can understand why he did it. Part for the off-chance that KL defense was successful, and part because of his disillusionment from serving in the KG and seeing what counted as a 'traitor', and the style of 'justice' that he used (Not the mention his 'champion').

I'm not defending Jaime, Jon or Bowen, just pointing out that they played the hand they were dealt. Jaime and Bowen felt like their leaders had gone off the deep end. Rules sound nice, but they're still just an imaginary construct

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6 minutes ago, Kierria said:

Hi Groo,

 

a)  It was a sudden decision by all of the men.

b)  It doesn't take a long time to reach a conclusion that your lord commander had gone nuts and needs to be stopped.  Jon made a speech in which he announced his intentions.  The attack was awkward and poorly planned because it was a quick reaction to Jon's speech.  They all knew what to do.  Jon was not going to listen.  He might execute them for insubordination if they had tried to talk them out of it.  

c)  You have to see Jon from their eyes.  Jon recently murdered a sworn brother of the watch for a minor act of disrespect.  Jon's handling or mishandling of justice was witnessed by many.  He looked erratic.  He doesn't look like a man who would listen to reason.  

A) Sorry, but no. It was carefully planned given the timing. Jon reading the letter was either conveniently timed, or just a cherry on top for the Mutiny.

C) It wasn't a minor act of disrespect so much as repeat insubordination and slander, (two of each within about 18 hours, more than anybody else in the whole series)

*sorry for the double post Mod-gods

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Just now, Sir Tumbleweed said:

A) Sorry, but no. It was carefully planned given the timing. Jon reading the letter was either conveniently timed, or just a cherry on top for the Mutiny.

C) It wasn't a minor act of disrespect so much as repeat insubordination and slander, (two of each within about 18 hours, more than anybody else in the whole series)

*sorry for the double post Mod-gods

Sorry, I have to disagree.  It looked like an act of desperation to me.  

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Posted (edited)

@Kierria

Quote by Kierria "A) it was a sudden decision by ALL of the men"

Absence of NW members at their posts says otherwise. And then why only four daggers instead of fourty? Desperation yes, improvised no. I don't mind discussing it elsewhere, but the comparison between Jaime Bowen is too interesting to derail this thread. 

Edited by Sir Tumbleweed
Failed to quote, also didn't know how to add quotes to an edit edit.

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@Sir Tumbleweed @Kierria

There's also the fact that Marsh and Yarwik seemingly purposely got Jon drunk and the fact that Ghost misstrusts some of the mutineers hour beforez just like Greywind before the Red Wedding.

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1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

@Sir Tumbleweed @Kierria

The fact that Ghost misstrusts some of the mutineers hour beforez just like Greywind before the Red Wedding.

Good point.

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I think me and all the people who like Bowen Marsh read different books. Whered y'all come from :‑|

perhaps this board can be born again from the ashes. I wish id been on here in 2009:crying: alas I was 9

 

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im disappointed in myself for contributing to this thread

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15 hours ago, Orion2 said:

perhaps this board can be born again from the ashes. I wish id been on here in 2009:crying: alas I was 9

What the heck happened in 2009?

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19 hours ago, Orion2 said:

im disappointed in myself for contributing to this thread

I'm honestly confused. You only had the one brief post that immediately proceeded this one. What's there to regret? Or did you mean for this comment to be on another thread?

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