Alyn Oakenfist Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 So Stoneheart doesn't seem the kind of person that will give much due process. She might spare some women and the odd loyal Frey like Olyvar, but it's going to be a bloodbath. So when do you think it's going to happen. And how? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rondo Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 52 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: So Stoneheart doesn't seem the kind of person that will give much due process. She might spare some women and the odd loyal Frey like Olyvar, but it's going to be a bloodbath. So when do you think it's going to happen. And how? Soon if Lady Stoneheart is anything like Jon and Arya. LSH, Jon, and Arya are the blunt instruments of revenge. Revenge taken over the top. Their revenge will end up becoming more evil than the wrongs done to the Starks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted October 4, 2020 Author Share Posted October 4, 2020 Just now, Rondo said: Soon if Lady Stoneheart is anything like Jon and Arya. LSH, Jon, and Arya are the blunt instruments of revenge I get the other 2, but Jon??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rondo Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 13 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: I get the other 2, but Jon??? Okay, see, Arya and Stoneheart are killing people. They are operating outside the law. Which is bad but they are not under oath. Arya is a child whose judgment is bad. Jon is a man. What Jon did to his sworn brother is worse. So we know what kind of a dick Janos Slynt was. But all of his past was forgiven the moment he took the black. Jon should have let that go. Besides, it was not even Slynt who took Ned's head off. That's done by Payne on Joffrey's order. Jon misused the powers of his office to take revenge on one of Joffrey's former lackeys. And if being a dick is deserving of execution, then heaven help all of them. Jon was a dick too when he arrived the wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted October 4, 2020 Author Share Posted October 4, 2020 Just now, Rondo said: What Jon did to his sworn brother is worse. So we know what kind of a dick Janos Slynt was. But all of his past was forgiven the moment he took the black. Jon should have let that go. Besides, it was not even Slynt who took Ned's head off. That's done by Payne on Joffrey's order. Jon misused the powers of his office to take revenge on one of Joffrey's former lackeys. And if being a dick is deserving of execution, then heaven help all of them. Jon was a dick too when he arrived the wall. Alright there's a big ass thread about this, but whatever you feel about it, Jon didn't execute him for his past crimes, he executed him for insubordination and mutiny, crimes that drew the penalty of death in most military orders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamiloRP Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: So Stoneheart doesn't seem the kind of person that will give much due process. She might spare some women and the odd loyal Frey like Olyvar, but it's going to be a bloodbath. So when do you think it's going to happen. And how? I doubt she even spares Olyvar, she's blind with rage and pain, she will kill everyone she suspects might have the slightest thing to do with the red wedding. I think that RW.2, if it happens, will happen relatively early in Winds, most of the pieces are already set up, I would guess within 300/400 pages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Mac Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 12 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Alright there's a big ass thread about this, but whatever you feel about it, Jon didn't execute him for his past crimes, he executed him for insubordination and mutiny, crimes that drew the penalty of death in most military orders No, he literally executed him for his past crimes. He took into account Janos past behaviour and executed him for that. He is pretty clear on that. He thinks of the punishment he deserves (being put in a cell or sent away on the back of a mule) but then changes it, in a split second no less, to execution based on what Jon thinks Janos might do in the future based on his past. If the roles were reversed, and Lord Commander Janos Slynt executed Jon for refusing a possible suicide mission there would be no support for Slynt's actions. You and others are not defending Jon because he was morally in the right, but because it was Jon, one of the main heroes of the book. Pragmatically Jon was right to do what he did, but morally it was all kinds of wrong and goes against the spirit of the Oath he had taken and was supposed to uphold as the Lord Commander of the Watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamiloRP Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 35 minutes ago, Rondo said: Okay, see, Arya and Stoneheart are killing people. They are operating outside the law. Which is bad but they are not under oath. Arya is a child whose judgment is bad. Jon is a man. What Jon did to his sworn brother is worse. So we know what kind of a dick Janos Slynt was. But all of his past was forgiven the moment he took the black. Jon should have let that go. Besides, it was not even Slynt who took Ned's head off. That's done by Payne on Joffrey's order. Jon misused the powers of his office to take revenge on one of Joffrey's former lackeys. And if being a dick is deserving of execution, then heaven help all of them. Jon was a dick too when he arrived the wall. I guessed you where a Stark Hater from the first comment, I'm not surprised. If you think Jon breaking an oath makes him worse, you haven't been paying attention. Both Arya and LSH are absolute psychos murdering without regret. Jon was in the right (using Westerosi standars) when he killed Janos Slynt, here's a post about it: Now, I don't agree with @Alyn Oakenfist that it was the right pragmatic move, as it turned Slynt into a martyr, but legally and morally he was in the right. We are in Jon's head when this happens, he's not getting revenge, he's enforcing justice and doing what he thinks is the best move. Even Stannis agrees with him, and Stannis is a stickler for rules. Janos Slynt insulted him many times, disobeyed direct orders and did his best to kill him, no lord can have that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damon_Tor Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 5 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: So Stoneheart doesn't seem the kind of person that will give much due process. She might spare some women and the odd loyal Frey like Olyvar, but it's going to be a bloodbath. So when do you think it's going to happen. And how? IMO, Lord Frey dies peacfully in his sleep surrounded by loved ones, content in the belief that his life was good. Because that's how GRRM rolls; there's not always justice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Sidious Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 Cat is not in an emotional state to pass fair judgement. Aegon Frey was innocent. The most innocent in that castle. She will be less fair in her Stoneheart existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makk Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said: No, he literally executed him for his past crimes. He took into account Janos past behaviour and executed him for that. He is pretty clear on that. He thinks of the punishment he deserves (being put in a cell or sent away on the back of a mule) but then changes it, in a split second no less, to execution based on what Jon thinks Janos might do in the future based on his past. If the roles were reversed, and Lord Commander Janos Slynt executed Jon for refusing a possible suicide mission there would be no support for Slynt's actions. You and others are not defending Jon because he was morally in the right, but because it was Jon, one of the main heroes of the book. Pragmatically Jon was right to do what he did, but morally it was all kinds of wrong and goes against the spirit of the Oath he had taken and was supposed to uphold as the Lord Commander of the Watch. Quote "Lord Janos," Jon said, "I will give you one last chance. Put down that spoon and get to the stables. I have had your horse saddled and bridled. It is a long, hard road to Greyguard." "Then you had best be on your way, boy." Slynt laughed, dribbling porridge down his chest. "Greyguard's a good place for the likes of you, I'm thinking. Well away from decent godly folk. The mark of the beast is on you, bastard." "You are refusing to obey my order?" "You can stick your order up your bastard's arse," said Slynt, his jowls quivering. Alliser Thorne smiled a thin smile, his black eyes fixed on Jon. At another table, Godry the Giantslayer began to laugh. "As you will." Jon nodded to Iron Emmett. "Please take Lord Janos to the Wall—" —and confine him to an ice cell, he might have said. A day or ten cramped up inside the ice would leave him shivering and feverish and begging for release, Jon did not doubt. And the moment he is out, he and Thorne will begin to plot again. —and tie him to his horse, he might have said. If Slynt did not wish to go to Greyguard as its commander, he could go as its cook. It will only be a matter of time until he deserts, then. And how many others will he take with him? "—and hang him," Jon finished. He wasn't executed for his past crimes and Jon never really decided on what punishment was just. On the first point, that was gross insubordination and I am struggling to see how you can view it any other way. He didn't just refuse an order, twice. He refused an order in such a manner he was directly and publicly challenging Jon's authority. On the second point, there is nothing in the text that indicates Jon considered the first option just. He considers three options and dismisses the first two as ineffective, not based on Slynt's past crimes but rather what he has, correctly, observed from Slynt since the two have been acquainted. And suicide mission? Where did you come up with that from? Slynt was being sent to organise the repairs of another fortress along the wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makk Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 On the topic of this thread, I am hoping they don't get a red wedding of their own and that Stoneheart can retain a bit of her humanity. I think the majority of the Frey forces will get wiped out by Stannis as they launch a cavalry charge across rotten ice and then the remained are routed by Manderlys forces. After that I think a slowish decline would be more fitting, perhaps Walder dies and his own family start killing each other to inherit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Mac Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Makk said: He wasn't executed for his past crimes He totally was. He was executed for what he did in his past. Jon could never see him as a true brother because of that. He makes that abundantly clear when he is fantasizing about chopping his head off at the beginning of the chapter. Jon slid the oilcloth down his bastard sword, watching the play of morning light across the ripples, thinking how easily the blade would slide through skin and fat and sinew to part Slynt's ugly head from his body. All of a man's crimes were wiped away when he took the black, and all of his allegiances as well, yet he found it hard to think of Janos Slynt as a brother. There is blood between us. This man helped slay my father and did his best to have me killed as well. Quote and Jon never really decided on what punishment was just. He thought of what punishments were fit for the crime "As you will." Jon nodded to Iron Emmett. "Please take Lord Janos to the Wall—" —and confine him to an ice cell, he might have said. A day or ten cramped up inside the ice would leave him shivering and feverish and begging for release, Jon did not doubt. And the moment he is out, he and Thorne will begin to plot again. —and tie him to his horse, he might have said. If Slynt did not wish to go to Greyguard as its commander, he could go as its cook. It will only be a matter of time until he deserts, then. And how many others will he take with him? He decides against them, in a split second, not because of what Slynt had done but based on what Slynt might do in the future. This runs contrary to the ethos of the Watch. All sins are supposed to be forgiven, yet Jon's judgement was based on Slynt's past. Quote On the first point, that was gross insubordination and I am struggling to see how you can view it any other way. He didn't just refuse an order, twice. He refused an order in such a manner he was directly and publicly challenging Jon's authority. Sure. But the punishment for that is not death, and Jon himself confirms that in his thoughts, as does the shock of the other people present. Slynt's punishment did not match his crime. Quote On the second point, there is nothing in the text that indicates Jon considered the first option just. He considers three options and dismisses the first two as ineffective, not based on Slynt's past crimes but rather what he has, correctly, observed from Slynt since the two have been acquainted. And suicide mission? Where did you come up with that from? Slynt was being sent to organise the repairs of another fortress along the wall. "No." Lord Janos lurched to his feet, sending his chair crashing over backwards. "I will not go meekly off to freeze and die." Slynt seems to think it was a suicide mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Steller Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said: He totally was. He was executed for what he did in his past. Jon could never see him as a true brother because of that. He makes that abundantly clear when he is fantasizing about chopping his head off at the beginning of the chapter. Jon slid the oilcloth down his bastard sword, watching the play of morning light across the ripples, thinking how easily the blade would slide through skin and fat and sinew to part Slynt's ugly head from his body. All of a man's crimes were wiped away when he took the black, and all of his allegiances as well, yet he found it hard to think of Janos Slynt as a brother. There is blood between us. This man helped slay my father and did his best to have me killed as well. If I was in the Nights Watch, and I was forced to go on a suicide mission by a newly sworn in black brother who is getting prestige because of his previous title in life, damn straight I’ll take that personal. Slynt not only gets preferential treatment because of his past life, he also made it clear that he wanted to get Jon tortured to death on a suicide mission. You can’t claim that he should be forgiven for his sins if his privilege comes to the NW with him. 1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said: He decides against them, in a split second, not because of what Slynt had done but based on what Slynt might do in the future. So he was killed for future treasons, not the past. You need to make up your mind about why Janos was executed. And for the record, he tried to get Jon killed brutally after he’d become a member of the Nights Watch. Jon had done him no injury at the time, he overrode Maester Aemon’s judgment, and happily took on Alliser Thorne as a lackey, and Thorne hates Jon Snow for no fault of his own. 1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said: "No." Lord Janos lurched to his feet, sending his chair crashing over backwards. "I will not go meekly off to freeze and die." Slynt seems to think it was a suicide mission. Millions of people believe in God and support Donald Trump, but that doesn’t make them right as far as I’m concerned. This isn’t an objective argument you’re making , it’s just a matter of opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makk Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said: He totally was. He was executed for what he did in his past. Jon could never see him as a true brother because of that. He makes that abundantly clear when he is fantasizing about chopping his head off at the beginning of the chapter. Jon slid the oilcloth down his bastard sword, watching the play of morning light across the ripples, thinking how easily the blade would slide through skin and fat and sinew to part Slynt's ugly head from his body. All of a man's crimes were wiped away when he took the black, and all of his allegiances as well, yet he found it hard to think of Janos Slynt as a brother. There is blood between us. This man helped slay my father and did his best to have me killed as well. Nope. It is interesting you cut off the very next line. Quote "Lord Janos." Jon sheathed his sword. "I am giving you command of Greyguard." Jon did despise Slynt, in the quote you posted he was torn between giving Slynt a chance and wanting to kill him. He was party to Ned's execution and tried to kill Jon himself. And yet after all that Jon somehow rose above that hatred and gave Slynt that chance not just once, but twice. 4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said: He decides against them, in a split second, not because of what Slynt had done but based on what Slynt might do in the future. Before you were arguing about what he had done in the past, now you have changed tack. Regardless we are inside Jon's head and it is clear he decides on execution after weighing up that the other punishments would not stop him committing treason. Right or wrong that is what Jon made the decision on, not his hatred of Slynt. And let's face it he was right. 4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said: "No." Lord Janos lurched to his feet, sending his chair crashing over backwards. "I will not go meekly off to freeze and die." Slynt seems to think it was a suicide mission. I'm not sure if you are serious here. It was a figure of speech. Jon has dispatched hundreds of others from the Nightswatch to go and repair various forts and there have not been any reported deaths. It would not be pleasant but it is not particularly more dangerous (probably less so) there than at Castle Black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anck Su Namun Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 What makes you so sure about a second red wedding for the Freys? The author says more weddings are coming but what makes you think any of those will involve a Frey? The only weddings coming are: Arriane to Aegon B., Cersei to Jamie, and Sansa to Harry. The Freys won't be at those weddings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastWolf Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 32 minutes ago, Anck Su Namun said: What makes you so sure about a second red wedding for the Freys? The author says more weddings are coming but what makes you think any of those will involve a Frey? The only weddings coming are: Arriane to Aegon B., Cersei to Jamie, and Sansa to Harry. The Freys won't be at those weddings. Daven Lannister may marry a Frey as part of the deal. 8 hours ago, James Steller said: Millions of people believe in God and support Donald Trump, but that doesn’t make them right as far as I’m concerned. This isn’t an objective argument you’re making , it’s just a matter of opinion. 11 hours ago, Makk said: On the topic of this thread, I am hoping they don't get a red wedding of their own and that Stoneheart can retain a bit of her humanity. How can something not human retain humanity? I don't want her to anyway. 11 hours ago, Makk said: After that I think a slowish decline would be more fitting, perhaps Walder dies and his own family start killing each other to inherit Oh no! Walder Frey should die at last. Witness the consequences of his choices. 11 hours ago, Damon_Tor said: IMO, Lord Frey dies peacfully in his sleep surrounded by loved ones, content in the belief that his life was good. Because that's how GRRM rolls; there's not always justice But this time there will be, for the North remembers, and Winter is coming. 15 hours ago, CamiloRP said: Both Arya and LSH are absolute psychos murdering without regret there's a separate thread for that toxicity, ladies and gentlemen. My legacy. My shame. 15 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: 15 hours ago, Rondo said: What Jon did to his sworn brother is worse. So we know what kind of a dick Janos Slynt was. But all of his past was forgiven the moment he took the black. Jon should have let that go. Besides, it was not even Slynt who took Ned's head off. That's done by Payne on Joffrey's order. Jon misused the powers of his office to take revenge on one of Joffrey's former lackeys. And if being a dick is deserving of execution, then heaven help all of them. Jon was a dick too when he arrived the wall. Alright there's a big ass thread about this, Pfft. Gazillions of those!!! And finally to the OP... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastWolf Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 5 hours ago, TheLastWolf said: And finally to the OP... Dum Dum Dum.... Dum Dum Dum... 22 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: So Stoneheart doesn't seem the kind of person that will give much due process. She might spare some women and the odd loyal Frey like Olyvar, but it's going to be a bloodbath. So when do you think it's going to happen. And how? As said earlier, Daven Lannister's wedding probably. If it has to be Red Wedding 2.0, then nothing else other than that soon. As to how.... Let me list the probable perpetrators of the Red Wedding 2.0. Lady Stoneheart and the BwB including Thoros shall attack. Nymeria (Warg Arya) and her pack too probably. Survivors (Stark loyalists) of the war, hiding in Greywater Watch along with crannogmen shall block retreat North and West. The Blackfish may be a part of this. Sansa and her knights from the Vale. No retreat South and East. If there is a dragon egg in the Vale (from nettle's Sheepstealer via the Painted Dogs to Burned men. Sansa is known as the imps wife to the clans remember) all the more interesting And.... Rickon and his Skagosi cannibals to finish the rest Any more? EDIT Spared Freys may continue with other house names. Freys are gonna end with the Boltons. Olyvar may be the squire inheriting Rosby. Mothers side or something. Gatehouse Ami can be either Darry or marry Strongboar. Rest are kaput Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loose Bolt Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 There is a chance that if Dany comes to Westeros soon enough Freys could renounce their old masters and become her "loyal" supporters and so gain her protection and even become overlords of Riverlands. After all Baratheons, Lannisters, Starks and Tullys rebelled against her father. So Dany should not have any problems if Freys betray those houses and so Freys would survive and even become stronger than they were at beginning of serie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 11 hours ago, Bernie Mac said: "No." Lord Janos lurched to his feet, sending his chair crashing over backwards. "I will not go meekly off to freeze and die." Slynt seems to think it was a suicide mission. A good officer would see an independent command as an opportunity to distinguish himself. The punishment for mutiny is death, and that's what Slynt got. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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