The 10 levels of Stark hatred

[Alyn Oakenfist]

So I'm noticing quite a lot of petty Stark hatred, going as far as comparing Jon to the Mad King in a thread here. So here are the 10 levels of Stark hatred

1 (rational human being) - Arya is a cold blooded killer we're not meant to support, only understand

2 (a bit biased against them, nothing bad) - Robb was occasionally an idiot, whose mistakes cost the lives of countless people

3 (definite bias) - Ned was as big an oath breaker as Jaime

4 (very strong bias) - Sansa was responsible for Ned's death

5 (clear hatred) - Ned betrayed Robert and Joffrey

6 (intense hatred) - Jon was wrong in executing Janos Slynt

7 (dribble filled hatred) - Warging is unnatural and the Starks are abominations

8 (call the doctor!!) - Jon is as bad as Aerys

9 (Janos Slynt) - the Boltons are better then the Starks

10 (Ramsay Bolton levels) - Walder Frey was right! Reeeeeee!

So what do you think? Are there more levels of Stark hatred?

[MissM]

Imagine starting a thread and calling yourself out. Your own personal bias in point 1 has been discussed recently. (Perhaps you made this topic just to make yourself feel better after what happened in the other thread) Jon or Robb kill too and did we miss the tears in their eyes? Emotional breakdowns? No. It was cold blooded. Yet you give them a pass? Bran watches a man beheaded at age six or seven... did that traumatise him? Did he dwell on it? No. 

@TheLastWolf they're at it again. 

 

 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

5 minutes ago, MissM said:

Imagine starting a thread and calling yourself out. Your own personal bias in point 1 has been discussed recently. (Perhaps you made this topic just to make yourself feel better after what happened in the other thread) Jon or Robb kill too and did we miss the tears in their eyes? Emotional breakdowns? No. It was cold blooded. Yet you give them a pass? Bran watches a man beheaded at age six or seven... did that traumatise him? Did he dwell on it? No. 

@TheLastWolf they're at it again. 

Alright, so we've had this discussion, and I don't want to get into it again, but even you have to concede, that it is a rational point, unlike some of the stuff that spews out against the Starks on this forum

[MissM]

45 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Alright, so we've had this discussion, and I don't want to get into it again, but even you have to concede, that it is a rational point, unlike some of the stuff that spews out against the Starks on this forum

How is it rational when A). Arya has done nothing different from Jon or Robb or Dany and yet we're not suppose to support her? B). As if her killing these scum is the SUM of her whole story and she's done developing as a character? The bias against her from some Stark haters is evident in your first point. The double standards doesn't make your bias point rational or fair. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

2 minutes ago, MissM said:

How is it rational when A). Arya has nothing different from Jon or Robb or Dany and yet we're not suppose to support her? B). As if her killing these scum is the SUM of her whole story and she's done developing as a character? The bias against her from some Stark haters is evident in your first point. The double standards doesn't make your bias point rational or fair. 

Again, I'm not arguing this with you. What I'm trying to show is that the argument that Arya is a coldblooded killer is rational. Not that it's necessarily correct, but that it is a rational point of view, given that she personally kills quite a lot of men, and shows no remorse. Granted most had it coming.

[TheLastWolf]

15 minutes ago, MissM said:

@TheLastWolf they're at it again.

What can we do? Abstain from such as much as possible. We can step in only if it reaches dizzying heights of hatred, insanity and bullshit.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, TheLastWolf said:

We can step in only if it reaches dizzying heights of hatred, insanity and bullshit.

That was what I was pointing out, unless you didn't realize. I don't particularly love the Starks, but I admit the levels of Stark hatred here are incredible at times

[Nathan Stark]

Oooh. I'm gonna like this thread!

So. Mostly I agree with the ten levels framework. It seems like we could use this basic setup on some other characters, especially Dany and the rest of the Targaryens. I'll just say though that I think we clearly are supposed to support Arya. George R. R. Martin wants us to support all of his characters, and I think Arya has a special place in his heart.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

7 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

I'll just say though that I think we clearly are supposed to support Arya. George R. R. Martin wants us to support all of his characters, and I think Arya has a special place in his heart.

That's an interesting idea, but I don't think it's so because of his by far favorite character, Tyrion. And Tyrion does some truly fucked up shit in ADWD. And I think it's the same. We're meant to understand him, heck it's some of the best characterization in the books, but I'm sure as hell sure we're no meant to support him. Especially with the slave prostitute. And I think the same goes for Arya. We're meant to understand why she does what she does, not support it.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

10 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

So. Mostly I agree with the ten levels framework. It seems like we could use this basic setup on some other characters, especially Dany and the rest of the Targaryens

Stannis would be great too I think

[Damon_Tor]

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

1 (rational human being) - Arya is a cold blooded killer we're not meant to support, only understand

I don't disagree with this, but I think there's another level which should take the number one spot: Bran took his loyal friend's body for a joyride, knowingly and willfully inflicting terror upon him, because he was bored.

Not a Stark hater. Ned was the bomb, Jon and Robb were great, I even like Sansa well enough. But Bran is becoming the big bad, and anyone who can't see that has something wrong with them.

[Nevets]

1 hour ago, MissM said:

Imagine starting a thread and calling yourself out. Your own personal bias in point 1 has been discussed recently. (Perhaps you made this topic just to make yourself feel better after what happened in the other thread) Jon or Robb kill too and did we miss the tears in their eyes? Emotional breakdowns? No. It was cold blooded. Yet you give them a pass? Bran watches a man beheaded at age six or seven... did that traumatise him? Did he dwell on it? No. 

@TheLastWolf they're at it again. 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, MissM said:

How is it rational when A). Arya has done nothing different from Jon or Robb or Dany and yet we're not suppose to support her? B). As if her killing these scum is the SUM of her whole story and she's done developing as a character? The bias against her from some Stark haters is evident in your first point. The double standards doesn't make your bias point rational or fair. 

This is getting a bit ridiculous. 

Number of people Bran has killed - 0.

Number of people Jon has killed not mission-essential or battle - 1 (Slynt by execution)

Number of people Robb has killed outside battle - 1 (Karstark by execution)

Number of people Arya has killed not a threat to her or anyone else - 4 (Harrenhal guard, Darron, insurance man, Raff)

Jon's age when he first killed - 16.

Robb's age when he first killed - 15/16.

Arya's age when she first killed - 9

Arya's age when she first killed  by choice  - 10

 

Comparing Arya to Robb and Jon is specious.  She is much younger and the circumstances of her killings very different.   I cry no tears for the Harrenhal guard or Raff, and few for Dareon.  I do shed tears at the fact that it is Arya doing the killings. 

I do not feel it is healthy for an 11 year old to be  comfortable committing violence - period.  Arya is one of my favorites and I am a big Stark fan (as anyone who has read my posts knows), but I do worry about her current trajectory. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

2 minutes ago, Nevets said:

This is getting a bit ridiculous. 

Number of people Bran has killed - 0.

So I haven't read most of Bran's chapters in a long time as they're so boring, but didn't he kill someone while warging?

[Nevets]

10 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So I haven't read most of Bran's chapters in a long time as they're so boring, but didn't he kill someone while warging?

If so, I think he was more a passenger in Summer than an active participant.

In any event, my point is that Arya's situation is very different from those she was being compared to.

 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, Nevets said:

If so, I think he was more a passenger in Summer than an active participant.

In any event, my point is that Arya's situation is very different from those she was being compared to.

Ah yes obviously, I was just wondering about Bran

[Eltharion21]

1 hour ago, Nathan Stark said:

Oooh. I'm gonna like this thread!

So. Mostly I agree with the ten levels framework. It seems like we could use this basic setup on some other characters, especially Dany and the rest of the Targaryens. I'll just say though that I think we clearly are supposed to support Arya. George R. R. Martin wants us to support all of his characters, and I think Arya has a special place in his heart.

So?

Tyrion is his favorite character, and he mentioned Daemon Targaryen to be one his favorites in Fire and Blood.  Does that make what their actions excusable or viable to support by any person with half decent moral compass.

[Nevets]

1 hour ago, Nathan Stark said:

Oooh. I'm gonna like this thread!

So. Mostly I agree with the ten levels framework. It seems like we could use this basic setup on some other characters, especially Dany and the rest of the Targaryens. I'll just say though that I think we clearly are supposed to support Arya. George R. R. Martin wants us to support all of his characters, and I think Arya has a special place in his heart.

GRRM has had nearly every character do things they really shouldn't,  some more than others.  So, while we may be meant to support his main characters, we certainly aren't meant to support their every action.

GRRM has compared Arya to a child soldier.   We may sympathize with such individuals, but not approve of their actions or circumstances.  GRRM is showing what can happen to someone like Arya in her situation.   It doesn't mean he approves.

That said, despite her troubling actions, she still cares about others and has a strong conscience and moral compass.  This will be of great help to her in the future. 

[SeanF]

Arya is not in a good situation, being inducted into a cult that kills people for money.

But, I don't condemn Arya for this.  She's had to endure things that no child should ever have to endure.  It's far too easy for those of us who live in Western Europe or North America in 2020 to condemn the choices that people have to make in a much poorer world at war.  Most of us would do what we had to, in order to survive, if we found ourselves in Arya's position, and we would take revenge on those who had wronged our friends or family.

 

[TheLastWolf]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

It's far too easy for those of us who live in Western Europe or North America in 2020 to condemn the choices that people have to make in a much poorer world at war.

I don't, that's why I understand. Arya isn't the exaggerated psychopath anyway. Rickon may be. Cat is. Not Arya. There's a separate toxic dump for that. Dont bother to reply here, haters. Not you SeanF 

[a black swan]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Arya is not in a good situation, being inducted into a cult that kills people for money.

But, I don't condemn Arya for this.  She's had to endure things that no child should ever have to endure.  It's far too easy for those of us who live in Western Europe or North America in 2020 to condemn the choices that people have to make in a much poorer world at war.  Most of us would do what we had to, in order to survive, if we found ourselves in Arya's position, and we would take revenge on those who had wronged our friends or family.

 

That's a very fair assessment. 

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

GRRM has had nearly every character do things they really shouldn't,  some more than others.  So, while we may be meant to support his main characters, we certainly aren't meant to support their every action.

GRRM has compared Arya to a child soldier.   We may sympathize with such individuals, but not approve of their actions or circumstances.  GRRM is showing what can happen to someone like Arya in her situation.   It doesn't mean he approves.

That said, despite her troubling actions, she still cares about others and has a strong conscience and moral compass.  This will be of great help to her in the future. 

I feel like your position is far more nuanced and fair compared to some people who simply use this "cold blooded killer" & "psychopath" label to diminish her as someone completely gone. That's not Arya's story or where it's headed but it seems like some people want to label her as something akin to Ramsay because they hate the Starks. 

Regarding your first post, the comparison of Arya to Jon/Robb is the act of killing and not the reasons for it. We can agree or disagree for their reasons and justifications (i.e. survival, revenge, oathbreaking, sanctioned by the FM, treason) but when it comes down to it... all 3 can kill and be cold blooded about it. Arya has shown remorse and guilt (Thinking Robb wouldn't ransom her/Catelyn wouldn't want her back or love her anymore/nightmares while in the HoBW) and by GRRM showing that fact it should ease our worries for her future and the obvious lessons she still needs to learn. - In that regard she should be supported as a character, not lambasted as just a cold-blooded killer (or psychopath as some would like to use) like that's the all there is of her character which is a bias outlook by the exact same Stark haters this topic was made about.