Jump to content

Dornish Bone Bribe... is there more?


Angel Eyes

Recommended Posts

So it says in the books that after Oberyn Martell attempted to raise Dorne in rebellion after Robert's Rebellion to take revenge for Elia Martell's rape and murder, Jon Arryn traveled to Sunspear and bought peace with the Martells by bringing Lewyn Martell's bones back to Dorne (and possibly Elia's but it is unstated). But as we know from the War of the Five Kings with the return of Ned Stark's bones, the return of bones is hardly a bribe to end a war. So there must be something else that must have been done to stay Oberyn's hand.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I imagine JA went to talk some sense into him, saying something like, "dude, we're at minimum 100k, you're at best 30k, don't be that stupid" while also assuring him that Robert had nothing to do with the death of Ellia. 

But also the failed uprising, I think, was faint, they where trying to look like Targaryen supporters to the Targaryens while looking like they already had done everything they would do to their enemies, and no longer would rebel. This I say because that plan was incredibly stupid, and Doran says he and Oberyn worked together.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm honestly kind of surprised the Martells seem so keen on supporting House Targaryen. Rhaegar blatantly disrespected Ellia with his tryst with Lyanna. Aerys basically was holding Ellia and her children hostage to their good behavior. Sure, they have good reason to despise Houses Baratheon and Lannister too, but I never got why the Targaryens got a pass. Dorne would make far much more sense to be engaging in a separatist movement like the Iron Islands or the North than secretly supporting House Targaryen. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

I'm honestly kind of surprised the Martells seem so keen on supporting House Targaryen. Rhaegar blatantly disrespected Ellia with his tryst with Lyanna. Aerys basically was holding Ellia and her children hostage to their good behavior. Sure, they have good reason to despise Houses Baratheon and Lannister too, but I never got why the Targaryens got a pass. Dorne would make far much more sense to be engaging in a separatist movement like the Iron Islands or the North than secretly supporting House Targaryen. 

Lack of options? The Iron Islands are unreliable and opportunistic and Doran and Oberyn probably assumed that Ned was in Robert's pocket.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

I'm honestly kind of surprised the Martells seem so keen on supporting House Targaryen. Rhaegar blatantly disrespected Ellia with his tryst with Lyanna. Aerys basically was holding Ellia and her children hostage to their good behavior. Sure, they have good reason to despise Houses Baratheon and Lannister too, but I never got why the Targaryens got a pass. Dorne would make far much more sense to be engaging in a separatist movement like the Iron Islands or the North than secretly supporting House Targaryen. 

Absolutely, also the Rhoynar got to Westeros to escape the Valiryans. I think Doran is being facetious about his support of house Targaryen, and has another plan up his sleve. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Angel Eyes said:

Lack of options? The Iron Islands are unreliable and opportunistic and Doran and Oberyn probably assumed that Ned was in Robert's pocket.

I said engage in a separatist movement like those two powers did. I didn't say support them directly. Dorne has a history of independence far greater than the North or the Iron Islands. Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

I said engage in a separatist movement like those two powers did. I didn't say support them directly. Dorne has a history of independence far greater than the North or the Iron Islands. Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken. 

Could they have engaged in a protracted guerilla war? Tyene Sand certainly thought they could but she's not the best judge, is she?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

I'm honestly kind of surprised the Martells seem so keen on supporting House Targaryen. Rhaegar blatantly disrespected Ellia with his tryst with Lyanna. Aerys basically was holding Ellia and her children hostage to their good behavior. Sure, they have good reason to despise Houses Baratheon and Lannister too, but I never got why the Targaryens got a pass. Dorne would make far much more sense to be engaging in a separatist movement like the Iron Islands or the North than secretly supporting House Targaryen. 

I am not so sure about Rhaegar's actions with Lyanna were disrespectful to the Dornish.  They have more progressive less inhibited ideas about love and marriage and sex and paramours.  He was hiding his cookie out right there in Dorne, after all.  

5 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

So it says in the books that after Oberyn Martell attempted to raise Dorne in rebellion after Robert's Rebellion to take revenge for Elia Martell's rape and murder, Jon Arryn traveled to Sunspear and bought peace with the Martells by bringing Lewyn Martell's bones back to Dorne (and possibly Elia's but it is unstated). But as we know from the War of the Five Kings with the return of Ned Stark's bones, the return of bones is hardly a bribe to end a war. So there must be something else that must have been done to stay Oberyn's hand.

I think Jon Arryn was a true diplomat and probably had Robert's OK to do whatever was necessary to bring Dorne back into the fold.  We know there was an offer of a seat on the Small Council.  Taking Ned's bones for example, I think that single effort is on par, no, it's better, than returning Dawn.  Imagine the box all decorated with medals and royal awards.  Play it up.  I don't think that's a bribe, that's just decent and right.  Whatever transpired between Doran and Jon must have been good.  Doran didn't go gunning for anyone but Tywin, seeming to leave Robert in place as his king.  

When the Rogarre's married into the Martell family trade agreements were put in place.   Commerce is a big deal everywhere.  That could have been part of the deal sweetener, too.  Dorne didn't try anything again until long after Robert was dead and a lousy blonde haired king was marrying a girl from the Reach.  However, Tyrion struck a good deal insofar as diplomatic relations go, in sending Myrcella to ward.  Oberyn, the man, the myth, the legend Martell acted as Tyrion's champion.  I think that act alone is proof the Martells were single-mindedly after Tywin.  

It's possible Oberyn & Doran expected some sort of allegiance from the Targaryens because of Elia and the children's deaths.  This doesn't feel as political as passionate to me.  For all we know part of the negotiations entailed making 100% sure that Tywin didn't become Hand again.  Lots could have happened.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I am not so sure about Rhaegar's actions with Lyanna were disrespectful to the Dornish.  They have more progressive less inhibited ideas about love and marriage and sex and paramours.  He was hiding his cookie out right there in Dorne, after all.  

That's a fair point. Though when it's set against a marriage alliance to the crown, a child with another woman would seem to pose a threat to Ellia's children's claim to the throne. Especially if Lyanna got married.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Lord Lannister said:

That's a fair point. Though when it's set against a marriage alliance to the crown, a child with another woman would seem to pose a threat to Ellia's children's claim to the throne. Especially if Lyanna got married.

Touche'

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

So it says in the books that after Oberyn Martell attempted to raise Dorne in rebellion after Robert's Rebellion to take revenge for Elia Martell's rape and murder, Jon Arryn traveled to Sunspear and bought peace with the Martells by bringing Lewyn Martell's bones back to Dorne (and possibly Elia's but it is unstated). But as we know from the War of the Five Kings with the return of Ned Stark's bones, the return of bones is hardly a bribe to end a war. So there must be something else that must have been done to stay Oberyn's hand.

Doran and the promise of a family marriage to Viserys stayed Oberyn.  He knew their day of victory was coming.  The anger never really went away though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I think Jon Arryn was a true diplomat and probably had Robert's OK to do whatever was necessary to bring Dorne back into the fold.  We know there was an offer of a seat on the Small Council.  Taking Ned's bones for example, I think that single effort is on par, no, it's better, than returning Dawn.  Imagine the box all decorated with medals and royal awards.  Play it up.  I don't think that's a bribe, that's just decent and right.  Whatever transpired between Doran and Jon must have been good.  Doran didn't go gunning for anyone but Tywin, seeming to leave Robert in place as his king.  

When the Rogarre's married into the Martell family trade agreements were put in place.   Commerce is a big deal everywhere.  That could have been part of the deal sweetener, too.  Dorne didn't try anything again until long after Robert was dead and a lousy blonde haired king was marrying a girl from the Reach.  However, Tyrion struck a good deal insofar as diplomatic relations go, in sending Myrcella to ward.  Oberyn, the man, the myth, the legend Martell acted as Tyrion's champion.  I think that act alone is proof the Martells were single-mindedly after Tywin.  

It's possible Oberyn & Doran expected some sort of allegiance from the Targaryens because of Elia and the children's deaths.  This doesn't feel as political as passionate to me.  For all we know part of the negotiations entailed making 100% sure that Tywin didn't become Hand again.  Lots could have happened.  

Well, I guess what I'm saying is that because of the terms of the deal (or ambiguousness) there must be more to this deal than meets the eye.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, I guess what I'm saying is that because of the terms of the deal (or ambiguousness) there must be more to this deal than meets the eye.

I would have to agree with you.  Nothing appears easily done in Westeros, does it? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...
On 10/6/2020 at 8:44 PM, Curled Finger said:

I would have to agree with you.  Nothing appears easily done in Westeros, does it? 

Let me expand on this: GRRM has complained about the ease that Aragorn apparently did things in Lord of the Rings (that tax policy), yet he has Jon Arryn able to buy off Doran and Oberyn with two sets of bones, which, as we know in the books, isn’t very effective.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/5/2020 at 11:40 PM, Curled Finger said:

I am not so sure about Rhaegar's actions with Lyanna were disrespectful to the Dornish.  They have more progressive less inhibited ideas about love and marriage and sex and paramours.  He was hiding his cookie out right there in Dorne, after all.  

 

It cleary was, taken as a insult.

"But it's not entirely correct that the Martells stayed out of the war. Rhaegar had Dornish troops with him on the Trident, under the command of Prince Lewyn of the Kingsguard. However, the Dornishmen did not support him as strongly as they might have, in part because of anger at his treatment of Elia, in part because of Prince Doran's innate caution."

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Baratheon_Brothers/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/5/2020 at 6:07 PM, Lord Lannister said:

I'm honestly kind of surprised the Martells seem so keen on supporting House Targaryen. Rhaegar blatantly disrespected Ellia with his tryst with Lyanna. Aerys basically was holding Ellia and her children hostage to their good behavior. Sure, they have good reason to despise Houses Baratheon and Lannister too, but I never got why the Targaryens got a pass. Dorne would make far much more sense to be engaging in a separatist movement like the Iron Islands or the North than secretly supporting House Targaryen. 

I agree. Dorne being supportive of the Targeryans is a very odd ball.

The Martells have much more reason to want independence than any other faction.

1- On this generation they have been severly insulted by both Targeryans and Baratheon alike, Rhaegar's affair with Lyanna, and Aerys using Elia as hostages, and Robert's refusal to bring those responsables for the murder to justice.

2- They do not have any real ties with the Seven Kingdoms, they have a cleary geography border, no marriage that ties them to another region, they have a history of indenpendence far greater than any other regions, and they already proved that they can withstand the whole might of the Iron Throne, even when they had dragons.

3- In this weird world that blood feud goes on for centuries if not thousand on years, they complete ignore they bad past with the Valyrians and dragons and decide to throw their lot with them.

4- The whole targ restoration, with the marriage between Viserys and Arianne, seems too risk, considering that Doran rejected much safer bets like Renly during the war of the five kings.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:
 

It cleary was, taken as a insult.

"But it's not entirely correct that the Martells stayed out of the war. Rhaegar had Dornish troops with him on the Trident, under the command of Prince Lewyn of the Kingsguard. However, the Dornishmen did not support him as strongly as they might have, in part because of anger at his treatment of Elia, in part because of Prince Doran's innate caution."

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Baratheon_Brothers/

That's interesting as I never saw the Dornish reaction or action as insult.   Aerys was rude to Elia and I cannot help but wonder if Doran understood moving his sister from Dragonstone to the Red Keep as aggression and threat.  That is certainly fear supposing the move was taken as a threat against Elia's person.   It is entirely possible Doran knew the king was mad, too.   That's all very frightening given the Martell family closeness.  The passage you offer tells little outside anger, yet Doran was playing his long game even there, in sending support.    Would that we all had that level of self control.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Let me expand on this: GRRM has complained about the ease that Aragorn apparently did things in Lord of the Rings (that tax policy), yet he has Jon Arryn able to buy off Doran and Oberyn with two sets of bones, which, as we know in the books, isn’t very effective.

Do you believe Doran and Oberyn were really won to Jon Arryn's peace with simple human remains?  I have been deep diving into World War 1 lately.   A fascinating time of intrigue and power grabs and utter insanity.  There are no easy peaces.  The US merely filed a complaint against Germany for sinking the Lusitania, when over 100 Americans were killed.   It was not until England intercepted a proposal/plan from Germany to Mexico to effectively invade and claim the south western states that the US finally joined the Allied war effort.  Talk about biding one's time?!?!?!  While the time of Jon Arryn's visit to Dorne was hardly war time, it was a pensive moment in Westerosi history setting up a new regime and attempting to repair the injuries of the newly ended civil war.  It was only 300 years ago the victors of conquest in Westeros killed all the men and married the wives and daughters.  This killing Elia and her children had to be an astounding crime by the commonly held rules of war.  (This also brings to mind the letter Aegon I received from Dorne that caused him to declare peace.)  We know little of Dorne's true motives, but by all accounts Jon Arryn was a good man who worked to promote alliances (read unity) before, during and after Robert's Rebellion.  I imagine there was much to answer for in Dorne and that Arryn did his job there.  Perhaps not completely in Dorne taking no place on the Small Council nor seeming to really engage with the larger society in the years during Robert's reign.  Perhaps only enough to buy tentative peace until he died.   I can't be sure why Oberyn opted to show up in King's Landing when he did, but it was a long time coming if Arryn made the offer when he visited.    In short, and I apologize for waxing long winded here, there had to be more on the table than bones to affect this peace.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...