How come Walder Frey did ask/demand that Robb marry one of his daughters at the Twins or after he relieved the siege of Riverrun?

[Alex13]

From what i remember, Walder got a promise that Robb will marry a daughter of his house, once the war was over. My questions is why did he agree for that to happen at the end of the war and not sooner, during the war? 

He could have asked/demanded that Robb marry one of his daughters once the first siege of Riverrun was resolved, right after the Battle of the Camps. Walder seems to be taking a risk, as Robb could have been killed during the War, thus nulling the promise of marrying one of his daughters to the (then) heir to the Lordship of Winterfell, plus it would have also prevented the marriage between Robb and Jeyne Westerling and probably prevent the Roose from betraying the Stark's. 

And if Robb died, then the next Stark heir would be Bran who is crippled and Rickon who was 3-4 years old and a lot of things could have happened that could have prevented a marriage between Rickon and a Frey bride. And Jon was at the Wall and he took his vows, so getting him released from the Night's Watch would have been a difficult task, that some people in the North, especially Catelyn would have fought against. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1. He didn't want to push it and time was of the essence at the moment, so no immediate wedding and

2. A betrothal can be ended. A marriage was permanent. He needed a way out should the war turn against Robb

[Lord Lannister]

Because otherwise Robb couldn't betray Walder and that's what the plot needed.

[James Steller]

2 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

1. He didn't want to push it and time was of the essence at the moment, so no immediate wedding and

2. A betrothal can be ended. A marriage was permanent. He needed a way out should the war turn against Robb

True. It wasn’t in Walder Frey’s nature to pick a side so early in the war. He hedged his bets whenever possible.

And as you said, Robb was fighting a war single handedly once it became clear what a military prodigy he was (seriously, he was the best military commander since arguably Daeron I. He wasn’t going to pause in the middle of everything and have a wedding. He would have lost every advantage he had up to that point.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

43 minutes ago, James Steller said:

he was the best military commander since arguably Daeron I

Honestly I always saw him and Tywin as parallels to Hannibal and Caesar.

Hannibal was one of, if not the greatest tactician in the Ancient world, on par with only Alexander (who is himself a parallel to Daeron I). But Hannibal made a series of grave strategic choices, and eventually ended up contained and cut off from his homeland until he was killed when he finally did try to return to it. Tywin on the other hand, wasn't as great as tactician, similarly with Caesar. But they were both great (albeit ruthless) politicians able to milk every situation, no matter how dire for every last advantage imaginable. And they both got killed by their sons.

[James Steller]

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Honestly I always saw him and Tywin as parallels to Hannibal and Caesar.

Hannibal was one of, if not the greatest tactician in the Ancient world, on par with only Alexander (who is himself a parallel to Daeron I). But Hannibal made a series of grave strategic choices, and eventually ended up contained and cut off from his homeland until he was killed when he finally did try to return to it. Tywin on the other hand, wasn't as great as tactician, similarly with Caesar. But they were both great (albeit ruthless) politicians able to milk every situation, no matter how dire for every last advantage imaginable. And they both got killed by their sons.

I agree with almost everything you said (and very well put by the way), but I’m pretty sure Hannibal took his own life because the Romans wouldn’t stop hunting him even though he was an old man on the run from his homeland. And there’s a great poetic tragedy to the fact that his fate was shared by Scipio Africanus, the man who finally defeated Hannibal in battle. Scipio had also been let down by his home country, just as Hannibal had been, and died a bitter old man the same year as Hannibal did, alone on his estate in quasi disgrace.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

3 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Scipio had also been let down by his home country, just as Hannibal had been, and died a bitter old man the same year as Hannibal did, alone on his estate in quasi disgrace.

Yeah. Ironically enough the man that screwed him over was Cato the Older who would go down in history for ending every single speech with "Carthago Delena Est"

5 minutes ago, James Steller said:

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Honestly I always saw him and Tywin as parallels to Hannibal and Caesar.

Hannibal was one of, if not the greatest tactician in the Ancient world, on par with only Alexander (who is himself a parallel to Daeron I). But Hannibal made a series of grave strategic choices, and eventually ended up contained and cut off from his homeland until he was killed when he finally did try to return to it. Tywin on the other hand, wasn't as great as tactician, similarly with Caesar. But they were both great (albeit ruthless) politicians able to milk every situation, no matter how dire for every last advantage imaginable. And they both got killed by their sons.

I agree with almost everything you said (and very well put by the way), but I’m pretty sure Hannibal took his own life because the Romans wouldn’t stop hunting him even though he was an old man on the run from his homeland.

Yeah sorry, I was mixing the 2 up a bit too much in my head. He died a heck of a long time after Zama though, trying to get vengeance on the Romans to the bitter end.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

10 hours ago, Alex13 said:

From what i remember, Walder got a promise that Robb will marry a daughter of his house, once the war was over. My questions is why did he agree for that to happen at the end of the war and not sooner, during the war? 

He could have asked/demanded that Robb marry one of his daughters once the first siege of Riverrun was resolved, right after the Battle of the Camps. Walder seems to be taking a risk, as Robb could have been killed during the War, thus nulling the promise of marrying one of his daughters to the (then) heir to the Lordship of Winterfell, plus it would have also prevented the marriage between Robb and Jeyne Westerling and probably prevent the Roose from betraying the Stark's. 

And if Robb died, then the next Stark heir would be Bran who is crippled and Rickon who was 3-4 years old and a lot of things could have happened that could have prevented a marriage between Rickon and a Frey bride. And Jon was at the Wall and he took his vows, so getting him released from the Night's Watch would have been a difficult task, that some people in the North, especially Catelyn would have fought against. 

I agree with you, OP. 

And to those of you saying Walder Frey was just hedging his bets and wouldn't agree to a hasty wedding? I call BS. He allowed the Northern troops to not only use his crossing, but he also gave them the bulk of his bannermen as well as a good chunk of his offspring. Not to mention his own heir, Stevron Frey (who honestly should have stayed behind all things considered, but anyway). My point is you don't just get to waltz back over to the other side of the war after a commitment like that. The only thing left would be to secure that damn marriage agreement in case something happens to Robb. It's entirely in Walder's best interests to get his daughter/granddaughter pregnant with the heir to Winterfell no matter what happens. An invasion of the North would be more stupid than invading Dorne, so the Starks aren't going to be dislodged as long as they hold Winterfell.

Also, I call BS on the suggestion that the war wouldn't have allowed for Robb or Walder to go through with a wedding. Hoster Tully got both of his daughters married in the middle of Robert's Rebellion before he ever even entered the war on their side. If two shotgun Tully weddings can happen, so could Robb's wedding. 

[Canon Claude]

37 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

I agree with you, OP. 

And to those of you saying Walder Frey was just hedging his bets and wouldn't agree to a hasty wedding? I call BS. He allowed the Northern troops to not only use his crossing, but he also gave them the bulk of his bannermen as well as a good chunk of his offspring. Not to mention his own heir, Stevron Frey (who honestly should have stayed behind all things considered, but anyway). My point is you don't just get to waltz back over to the other side of the war after a commitment like that. The only thing left would be to secure that damn marriage agreement in case something happens to Robb. It's entirely in Walder's best interests to get his daughter/granddaughter pregnant with the heir to Winterfell no matter what happens. An invasion of the North would be more stupid than invading Dorne, so the Starks aren't going to be dislodged as long as they hold Winterfell.

Also, I call BS on the suggestion that the war wouldn't have allowed for Robb or Walder to go through with a wedding. Hoster Tully got both of his daughters married in the middle of Robert's Rebellion before he ever even entered the war on their side. If two shotgun Tully weddings can happen, so could Robb's wedding. 

You do realise that if Robb DID marry a Frey girl, and she went north, she'd have been caught up in everything that happens in ACOK, right? Robb would have lost not just his brothers, but also his wife and his unborn child (assuming his wife got pregnant from their bedding ceremony at least). So he'd still marry Jeyne Westerling and Walder would still have betrayed him. 

[Alex13]

7 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

You do realise that if Robb DID marry a Frey girl, and she went north, she'd have been caught up in everything that happens in ACOK, right? Robb would have lost not just his brothers, but also his wife and his unborn child (assuming his wife got pregnant from their bedding ceremony at least). So he'd still marry Jeyne Westerling and Walder would still have betrayed him. 

That is possible. But it is also possible that she could have stayed in the Riverlands, either at the Twins or most likely at Riverrun, where she would have gotten to know Catelyn and Robb better. 

Plus, if she would have went north to Winterfell, she would have went there under guard and the guards could have remained at Winterfell, thus possibly adding 50-100 extra guards to Winterfell, which could have changed what happened. 

[Canon Claude]

7 hours ago, Alex13 said:

That is possible. But it is also possible that she could have stayed in the Riverlands, either at the Twins or most likely at Riverrun, where she would have gotten to know Catelyn and Robb better. 

Plus, if she would have went north to Winterfell, she would have went there under guard and the guards could have remained at Winterfell, thus possibly adding 50-100 extra guards to Winterfell, which could have changed what happened. 

Strange thing to assume, considering that the two Walders came north without such a bodyguard. House Frey has committed to the war, why would they send 100 guards to Winterfell? Theon Greyjoy's attack was a shock to everyone, even the Ironborn. It was a pointless act which resulted in chaos and everyone losing (yes, even Ramsay Snow, because he ended up sowing further seeds of enmity against his house). 

My point is that sending Robb's wife north would be the go-to idea for everyone. On paper, and according to common sense, it is the best option. The North is vast, wild, and its people have been loyal to House Stark for longer than the Andals have even been in Westeros. Sure, House Bolton has a shady reputation but Lord Bolton is commanding the Northern infantry, and most of his troops are with the main army. There is no reason short of laughable paranoia to believe that Winterfell is under any kind of threat. And why wouldn't Robb send his wife to Winterfell? She has to become acquainted with her new role as Lady of Winterfell and Queen in the North now that Robb let himself get peer pressured into Northern/Riverlands independence. It would be considered vital that she goes to Winterfell. 

That means she'll definitely have been at Winterfell when Theon took over, and she'd become a very important hostage as a result. And then when Ramsay storms in, she's basically doomed to a horrific, slow death. And her only legacy is a hunting dog which shares her name.

[talvikorppi]

On 10/6/2020 at 4:48 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

1. He didn't want to push it and time was of the essence at the moment, so no immediate wedding and

2. A betrothal can be ended. A marriage was permanent. He needed a way out should the war turn against Robb

I'd venture to say 2) was the thing.

Lord Walder Frey, the lord of a "new" family, only about 700 years old, is resentful of old families, such as the Starks, th Lannisters, the Baratheons ets, looking down on them...

So Lord Walder Frey's life's work is to marry into as many families as he can, and spread his seed. An unplaseant goat/Pan figure.

I'll save my gab.

[Bernie Mac]

2 hours ago, talvikorppi said:

I'd venture to say 2) was the thing.

I find that to be hugely unlikely given he allowed Roose to quickly marry whoever he wanted.

Robb being married does not prevent Walder from having a way out, I'm not sure why this thought is so prevalent in the fandom. Walder can wash his hands from Robb any time he wants.

Walder agreed to let Robb cross his bridge and to supply troops to fight Tywin on the Green Fork and Jaime at Riverrun. He has already fulfilled his side of the deal.

2 hours ago, talvikorppi said:

Lord Walder Frey, the lord of a "new" family, only about 700 years old, is resentful of old families, such as the Starks, th Lannisters, the Baratheons ets, looking down on them...

Don't know about the Baratheons, but its certainly true of the Lannisters, Arryns. Starks and Tullys.

2 hours ago, talvikorppi said:

So Lord Walder Frey's life's work is to marry into as many families as he can, and spread his seed.

That is likely false.

Walder and his heir Stevron both took Swann brides around the same time, if Walder was do desperate to have his family marry into as many families as possible he'd never have done that, especially as at that time Walder only had 4 heirs.

Walder's twin sons, married two daughters from House Paege, again, if his wish was to marry into as many families as possible only one of the brothers would have married a Paege.

Multiple marriages to House Royce, Darry, Waynwood, Beesbury and Whent.

Benfrey married a Frey cousin, Luceon and other sons/grandsons were sent to the Faith, other sons/grandsons to the Citadel.  Symond married a woman from Braavos.

 

What seems to happen, especially with the protagonists of the series, is that people project motives onto them.

 

On 10/6/2020 at 1:52 PM, Alex13 said:

From what i remember, Walder got a promise that Robb will marry a daughter of his house, once the war was over. My questions is why did he agree for that to happen at the end of the war and not sooner, during the war? 

 

Robb was marching to free Riverrun. He and Cat did not know if they would make it in time. At Riverrun Robb marched West, he did not consult Walder about this. 

Walder likely trusted that Robb's word was good enough, that Walder fulfilled his side of the agreement. He had no reason to suspect that Robb would backstab him.

[Rondo]

On 10/6/2020 at 8:52 AM, Alex13 said:

From what i remember, Walder got a promise that Robb will marry a daughter of his house, once the war was over. My questions is why did he agree for that to happen at the end of the war and not sooner, during the war? 

He could have asked/demanded that Robb marry one of his daughters once the first siege of Riverrun was resolved, right after the Battle of the Camps. Walder seems to be taking a risk, as Robb could have been killed during the War, thus nulling the promise of marrying one of his daughters to the (then) heir to the Lordship of Winterfell, plus it would have also prevented the marriage between Robb and Jeyne Westerling and probably prevent the Roose from betraying the Stark's. 

And if Robb died, then the next Stark heir would be Bran who is crippled and Rickon who was 3-4 years old and a lot of things could have happened that could have prevented a marriage between Rickon and a Frey bride. And Jon was at the Wall and he took his vows, so getting him released from the Night's Watch would have been a difficult task, that some people in the North, especially Catelyn would have fought against. 

Walder trusted Robb Stark to honor his oath.  He never counted on the Starks blatantly breaking an oath.

[Alex13]

55 minutes ago, Rondo said:

Walder trusted Robb Stark to honor his oath.  He never counted on the Starks blatantly breaking an oath.

Fair enough. But he still took a chance, considering that Robb could have been killed in battle or died from wounds sustained in battle. 

[Bernie Mac]

3 hours ago, Alex13 said:

Fair enough. But he still took a chance, considering that Robb could have been killed in battle or died from wounds sustained in battle. 

I'm not sure he had much choice in the matter. Robb was hardly going to wait at the Twins, pick a wife, get married all while Riverrun was under siege.

Plus, at that period in time, Ned was still alive, Stannis and Renly had not rebelled and the Baratheons of Kings Landing and Starks long time allies. The chances of a prolonged civil war and Robb dying may have seemed slim.

The Freys, like Cat, counselled peace after Riverrun, they were ignored.

 

[Morte]

On 10/6/2020 at 8:48 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

"Carthago Delena Est"

 *murmurs* ... Carthaginem esse delendam.

Sorry, I see myself out...