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Jon Mark Selmy

Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon Book

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So, people, Reddit tells me that this is an excerpt from the book "Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon", about the behind the scenes of the HBO show. Supposedly, this was a declaration from GRRM himself (among other bombs, but this is the main one):

"It wasn’t easy for me. I didn’t want to give away my books. It’s not easy to talk about the end of my books. Every character has a different end. I told them who would be on the Iron Throne, and I told them some big twists like Hodor and “hold the door,” and Stannis’s decision to burn his daughter. We didn’t get to everybody by any means. Especially the minor characters, who may have very different endings."

So, my question would be: someone has read it? Is this actually there?

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Posted (edited)

It's quoted on Winter is Coming, so I guess it's correct.

The three Holy Shit moments are Stannis burning his daughter, Bran becoming king, and Hodor dying sword in hand, as Bran wargs his mind, an "obscenity" , according to Martin.

They admit, they messed up Daenerys.  We were meant to see the deaths of slavers, rapist Khals, and the Tarlys, as terrible deeds (although, the relevant Inside the Episodes would seem to contradict this), the precursor to genocide. Pretty bold to make the case against emancipation in 2020, IMO.

This then confirms that the Pink Letter is false, as Stannis is still alive.  Presumably, he won the Battle of Ice.

It also suggests that Bran’s becoming king is not a good thing at all.

Other than that, the characters have “different endings” to the show, “very different” in the case of minor characters.

 

Edited by SeanF

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9 hours ago, zionius said:

It's all there, I wrote the reddit post.

Can you give a link?

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, zionius said:

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/j68sb2/spoilers_extended_summary_of_asoiaf_new_info_from/

Ive included all book new info. There are also many more show info like grrm didn't want d&d delete Rickon and how book and show diverge

 

Many thanks.

To my mind, the most interesting comment is Martin describing the warging of Hodor as "an obscenity".  That implies to me that King Bran is actually very bad news for Westeros.  They get saved from the Others, only for a different evil to take power. 

Bran was utterly undeveloped as a character in the show, but I think we should now treat comments like "Why do you think I came all this way?" and "You were exactly where you needed to be." as very ominous.

Edited by SeanF

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Interesting to see that George really wants to play around with time travel/time warp stuff in ASoIaF. I'd be surprised if 'Hold the Door' was the only context in which that plot is going to be explored. The man did write 'Unsound Variations', after all.

And anyone ... do we believe George will get to Stannis burning Shireen in TWoW, or is that going to be a shuffled to ADoS?

They are far apart right now, and I'm not holding my breath for the Boltons still being a thing/major threat after Stannis and his wife and daughter are reunited. Do we think the Weeper could become a major danger to Stannis? Or will the Shireen thing be connected to the Others ... as all sane people assumed? If so, makes it sense for us to expect that for TWoW, with all the other plots so far behind?

I guess there is a chance for the Others to make multiple attacks on the Wall before it actually comes tumbling down, especially if they first have to find the Horn of Winter.

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If Cogman was surprised Dany fans weren't shocked by the Tarley scene as D&D intended, maybe they shouldnt have made Dickon a full grown adult and kept him a 10 year old like he is in the books.

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, bluntt said:

That doesn't really tell us anything new, apart from Alex Stewart's comment, although I did like Emilia Clarke's quip:-

He (Jon) just doesn’t like women, does he? He keeps fucking killing them. If I were to put myself in his shoes I’m not sure where he could go with it aside from, I dunno, maybe having a discussion about it? Ask my opinion? Warn me? It’s like being in the middle of a phone call with your boyfriend and they just hang up and never call you again. “Oh, this great thing happened to me at work today—hello?”—that was nine years ago. . . .

The business about reacting "coldly" to the death of Viserys as foreshadowing mass murder is just stupid.  The guy had just threatened to cut out her unborn child. 

Alex Stewart's comment, however, is revealing.  He thought that they were portraying her as not being like her (worst ) ancestors, rather than being like them. And, he was the Director.  No wonder what we got was a mess. 

As to the Tarlys, Randyll was made out to be about as repulsive as Roose Bolton or Walder Frey.  Why would anyone regard his death (after he was offered mercy) as sinister?  At least he wasn't fed Dickon in a pie.

Again, the slave masters and rapist Khals were portrayed as vile.  Why are we expected to feel any worse about their deaths than we would about the deaths of Freys, Boltons, Polliver, or Ser Meryn Trant? It makes no sense to portray feeding Ramsay to dogs, Frey pies, opening LF's throat, or poisoning the Freys, as righteous and empowering, but killing Slave-drivers as a no no.

Nor is there any recognition that the military advice that Daenerys was getting from Tyrion was appalling - borderline treacherous in my opinion.

Edited by SeanF

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3 hours ago, SeanF said:

Many thanks.

To my mind, the most interesting comment is Martin describing the warging of Hodor as "an obscenity".  That implies to me that King Bran is actually very bad news for Westeros.  They get saved from the Others, only for a different evil to take power. 

Bran was utterly undeveloped as a character in the show, but I think we should now treat comments like "Why do you think I came all this way?" and "You were exactly where you needed to be." as very ominous.

I don't expect George to have Bran as a proper king at the end of the story ... rather as some kind of living god. This can be some kind of stern master to a shitty and self-destructive people ... or a kind of tyrant the kind one would expect from a preteen boy acquiring divine powers.

He could very well be George's Leto II. I don't think this can end on a truly positive note.

Also, it is good to hear that George thinks Bran mind-raping people (and he might only start there with Hodor) is an obscenity. There were people having no issue with that, despite the fact that Bran himself knows this is clearly wrong - which is why he doesn't reveal to his friends that he continues to possess Hodor.

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2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't expect George to have Bran as a proper king at the end of the story ... rather as some kind of living god. This can be some kind of stern master to a shitty and self-destructive people ... or a kind of tyrant the kind one would expect from a preteen boy acquiring divine powers.

He could very well be George's Leto II. I don't think this can end on a truly positive note.

Also, it is good to hear that George thinks Bran mind-raping people (and he might only start there with Hodor) is an obscenity. There were people having no issue with that, despite the fact that Bran himself knows this is clearly wrong - which is why he doesn't reveal to his friends that he continues to possess Hodor.

Being ruled by a Leto II character is not good.  At best, this is someone whose idea of right and wrong is so at variance with those of his subjects as to make him a tyrant in their eyes.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't expect George to have Bran as a proper king at the end of the story ... rather as some kind of living god.

Yes, a Bran the Blessed type god.

I unfortunately did buy the kindle edition, and I can't recomend the book.  A simple interent search reveals any potential book spoilers.  GRRM's quotes are fairly frequent in the chapters covering the early part of the series (when the books still guided it) and become almost nonexistent as the book covers the fizzling ending of the series.  If you want a spoiler:

Spoiler

My takeaway is that GRRM is going to go into time travel through Bran.  That's probably the biggest spoiler. 

Anyone hoping for additional info on Jon's parentage and whether or not it is going to follow the series will be disappointed.  The book rehashes the initial quotes from D & D about GRRM quizzing them about Jon's mother (notably not his father).  The author himself then seems to assume that the Rhaegar portion of the equation was an inherently unstated part of GRRM's question to D & D but there are no quotes from anyone to confirm that.

In fact outside of this the idea of Rhaegar is pretty much absent from the book just as it was from the series.

Edited by Frey family reunion

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Well, at least this ends the debate that the show made Bran king on their own.

I didn't think that Stannis would be directly responsible for burning his daughter, so I was wrong on that.

It also should but won't end discussions on whether Dany turns toward the dark side, she does obviously, but it was very poorly portrayed in the show.

The Tarly deaths would have worked better in terms of the audience being really upset if they had not had them a couple episodes prior turn so easily on the Tyrells.

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12 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Being ruled by a Leto II character is not good.  At best, this is someone whose idea of right and wrong is so at variance with those of his subjects as to make him a tyrant in their eyes.

Of course, but like Leto II Bran actually will know better. He will have the knowledge of all of (Westerosi) humanity to draw from, just like Leto II drew from his memories.

And unlike mankind in Herbert's world the Westerosi just are confirmed shit show. We get that from the history books and the first five books of the series. If you allow them to do as they please they will turn on each other ... and commit genocide like they did back with the Children of the Forest. We can expect Bran to remember that part of human nature, too.

The really big thing to take away from this, though, is that all that silly Wars of the Roses crap plot is going to go away. The finale will be about which magical/divine ruler will control the world, not which house or dynasty or person will rule for the next two decades until some scheming spouse or servant or 'friend' is going to put the next drunken king into an early grave.

The whole thing will be proper high fantasy before it ends.

4 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Well, at least this ends the debate that the show made Bran king on their own.

I didn't think that Stannis would be directly responsible for burning his daughter, so I was wrong on that.

It also should but won't end discussions on whether Dany turns toward the dark side, she does obviously, but it was very poorly portrayed in the show.

The Tarly deaths would have worked better in terms of the audience being really upset if they had not had them a couple episodes prior turn so easily on the Tyrells.

I'd not be too sure about any of that considering George seems to be only covered in the book up until 'Hold the Door', Shireen, and the Sansa-Ramsay crap.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Of course, but like Leto II Bran actually will know better. He will have the knowledge of all of (Westerosi) humanity to draw from, just like Leto II drew from his memories.

And unlike mankind in Herbert's world the Westerosi just are confirmed shit show. We get that from the history books and the first five books of the series. If you allow them to do as they please they will turn on each other ... and commit genocide like they did back with the Children of the Forest. We can expect Bran to remember that part of human nature, too.

The really big thing to take away from this, though, is that all that silly Wars of the Roses crap plot is going to go away. The finale will be about which magical/divine ruler will control the world, not which house or dynasty or person will rule for the next two decades until some scheming spouse or servant or 'friend' is going to put the next drunken king into an early grave.

The whole thing will be proper high fantasy before it ends.

I'd not be too sure about any of that considering George seems to be only covered in the book up until 'Hold the Door', Shireen, and the Sansa-Ramsay crap.

Westeros is s shit show, but why would a being who mind-rapes people be any better?  He could be worse.

The only plot points we can be sure of are King Bran, Hold the Door, and Stannis burning Shireen.  Jon killing Daenerys would surely be a "Holy Shit" moment, if Martin had revealed it to them,  

Edited by SeanF

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, bluntt said:

They still don't seem to get it. In the final season, Dany turns on the smallfolk and begins slaughtering them. There is no indication beforehand of her hurting the marginalized. All their examples are arguably vindictive punishments dished out against the powerful: khals and lords and slavers. Their set-up could maybe lead to Cersei asking for mercy and Dany deciding "Nope" and making a Queen Reagent BBQ, but not her suddenly setting dragonfire on the Kingslanding peasants. 

Also, seriously, they had Jon retain his Lord Commandership to hang a 10-year-old boy. Had Sansa feed Ramsay to his hounds. Let Arya (illogically) murder Freys and cook them into pies, feed them to Walder before she murders him, and then kill dozens of Freys with poison. So why are those characters not worrisome? They seem to have treated the Arya stuff, in particular, as rather fist-pumping moments. 

Edited by Ser Drewy

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Ser Drewy said:

They still don't seem to get it. In the final season, Dany turns on the smallfolk and begins slaughtering them. There is no indication beforehand of her hurting the marginalized. All their examples are arguably vindictive punishments dished out against the powerful: khals and lords and slavers. Their set-up could maybe lead to Cersei asking for mercy and Dany deciding "Nope" and making a Queen Reagent BBQ, but not her suddenly setting dragonfire on the Kingslanding peasants. 

Had she simply flown for the Red Keep, and torched Cersei (along with the soldiers and human shields) it would have made far better narrative sense.  And that would have been the comparison with Aegon's torching Harrenhall.  It might be considered as horrible, but frankly, no different to the behaviour of any modern commander.

Jon killed her, because he feared for Sansa, Arya, and Bran.  My suspicion is that D & D realised, at a late stage, that torching the Red Keep and saving the Stark siblings would not be considered sufficient justification for him to kill her, so they had her swerve away from the Red Keep to massacre people at random.

Edited by SeanF

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9 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Westeros is s shit show, but why would a being who mind-rapes people be any better?  He could be worse.

The only plot points we can be sure of are King Bran, Hold the Door, and Stannis burning Shireen.  Jon killing Daenerys would surely be a "Holy Shit" moment, if Martin had revealed it to them,  

And that is the best evidence that while she dies, Jon doesn't kiss then kill her, because that would have been much more holy shit than any of the other three. 

I was one of those people who was not super bothered by Bran mind controlling Hodor, so that the author sees that as on par with some of the other atrocities committed is interesting and would mean either Bran will have a come to Jesus moment in how he uses his powers or yes, he will go all Dune on everyone. 

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