Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon Book

[SeanF]

15 minutes ago, Ser Drewy said:

 

Also, seriously, they had Jon retain his Lord Commandership to hang a 10-year-old boy. Had Sansa feed Ramsay to his hounds. Let Arya (illogically) murder Freys and cook them into pies, feed them to Walder before she murders him, and then kill dozens of Freys with poison. So why are those characters not worrisome? They seem to have treated the Arya stuff, in particular, as rather fist-pumping moments. 

I don't know where they stand on violence.  I think they even expected viewers to cheer at Cersei's treatment of Unella.

[Cas Stark]

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I don't know where they stand on violence.  I think they even expected viewers to cheer at Cersei's treatment of Unella.

They did and some did cheer, I remember being shocked that a few reviewers were like, hahaha, Unella is getting what she deserved.  

[SeanF]

2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

They did and some did cheer, I remember being shocked that a few reviewers were like, hahaha, Unella is getting what she deserved.  

Yes.  You can't glorify cruelty and then turn round and say oh no, war is wrong.

[Cas Stark]

3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Yes.  You can't glorify cruelty and then turn round and say oh no, war is wrong.

The D's were never good enough to have woven in a through line of morality that could cue the audience about the acts that were/were not over the line....and despite what they might say now, the music alone told the story of how the audience was supposed to feel when she burned the Khals..which was triumphant. It didn't help that the show made them all total asshole buffoons, rather than possibly trying to show the culture clash at work, so that at least the audience would be conflicted, they would still root for Dany but could recognize that what she did should not be cheered.

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

The D's were never good enough to have woven in a through line of morality that could cue the audience about the acts that were/were not over the line....and despite what they might say now, the music alone told the story of how the audience was supposed to feel when she burned the Khals..which was triumphant. It didn't help that the show made them all total asshole buffoons, rather than possibly trying to show the culture clash at work, so that at least the audience would be conflicted, they would still root for Dany but could recognize that what she did should not be cheered.

There’s no way you can have a bunch of men debatIng whether to rape, enslave, or  imprison a woman and leave the audience in any doubt whose side they should be on.

[Cas Stark]

16 minutes ago, SeanF said:

There’s no way you can have a bunch of men debatIng whether to rape, enslave, or  imprison a woman and leave the audience in any doubt whose side they should be on.

Its not about anyone being on the 'side of the khals' but about showing her actions as not wholly to be cheered. They should have focused on how she refused to become one of the dosh khaleen--culture clash--she signed up for it, she took the benefits of being the  khal's wife and then when he died she abjured her responsibility.  The audience would not agree with the Khals, but better dialogue would have made it the complicated cultural issue that it was.  Not all yeah we're going to rape you to death, hahaha so then of course the audience is happy she burns the khals and the dothraki religious shrine. 

[Mithras]

20 hours ago, SeanF said:

This then confirms that the Pink Letter is false, as Stannis is still alive.  Presumably, he won the Battle of Ice.

That is not the only alternative. He might have totally got his ass whipped by Ramsay and fleeing to the Wall to burn his daughter.

Or he might have won such a pyrric victory that he is left with only a handful of fighters left and he decides to fake his death.

[Mithras]

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

Bran was utterly undeveloped as a character in the show,

3 chapters in the last two decades, two of which are travellogue. GRRM must be mad.

[MissM]

3 hours ago, bluntt said:

Here is the Daenerys part of the book:
https://pastebin.com/X9m1xanu (Just click ok show me the paste)

I think its the part of the book that most of the folks here are interested.

I have a hard time believing this BS. How on earth can you really think that the Tarlys execution was unjust and that it would be the moment someone will actually understand that Daenerys is a Hitler clone?

I mean the Tarlys are oathbreakers, who refused to kneel after being destroyed on the battlefield, and the refusal was really arrogant and in front of a large crowd. I dont see any other choice for Daenerys but to execute them on sight.

Edit: For some reason the text is underlined and i cannot remove it?

 

Could you share the chapter on how the show and books diverged? 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Westeros is s shit show, but why would a being who mind-rapes people be any better?  He could be worse.

The end does justify the means in George's mind, no? The books are about how being shitty and doing the right thing make you a good guy (hence Stannis killing Renly doesn't matter so much if he turns around and defends his innocent subjects from the wildlings). A divine shepherd Bran could break the power of the nobility and enforce the reforms of Aegon V easily enough. If the price for that is mind-raping some people then, well, it wouldn't be so bad.

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

The only plot points we can be sure of are King Bran, Hold the Door, and Stannis burning Shireen.  Jon killing Daenerys would surely be a "Holy Shit" moment, if Martin had revealed it to them,  

I don't think 'King Bran' as such would be confirmed since I expect George's version of the story to differ considerably from the 'game of thrones' crap from the show. The ending could have a puppet mundane king and government in place, overseen by the old god Brandon Stark who, say, only makes his voice heard in religious rituals and portents (evil people kill themselves in their sleep or are devoured by animals). The idea that Bran's story involves his journey into 'the magical realm' only to return to the sphere of the mundane and discuss tax policies with Aragorn just seems childish.

But this doesn't mean couldn't be the true ruler of the continent. And he would rule all of Westeros, not just the Seven Kingdoms.

[Lord Varys]

23 minutes ago, Mithras said:

That is not the only alternative. He might have totally got his ass whipped by Ramsay and fleeing to the Wall to burn his daughter.

Or he might have won such a pyrric victory that he is left with only a handful of fighters left and he decides to fake his death.

That isn't really an option since the setup clearly has the guys at Winterfell not really love the Boltons. Their people will turn on them if things even looked as if they could lose the battle. So, if the Freys and Manderlys and whatever other troops Roose is going to send do not come back with Stannis' head and the confirmation that his army is beaten, the Northmen at Winterfell would sell Ramsay, Roose, and Barbrey to the other side. Especially now that they no longer have the fake Stark girl - and thus no legitimacy.

A sort of pyrrhic victory is pretty likely, though. Nobody is going to profit from there being a battle at the village nor a battle at Winterfell (if that's still necessary).

25 minutes ago, Mithras said:

3 chapters in the last two decades, two of which are travellogue. GRRM must be mad.

Yeah, for the Bran plot to make sense in the books we would need 10+ Bran chapters - or the same amount of chapters from POV hanging out/interacting with him. So far there has been no development there, and chances are that this kind of story is not going to work much better in the books than it did in the show.

Although I think a 'Bran the Old God' plot could work in the books. Being a deity is easier than being a king at the age of nine.

[Cas Stark]

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The end does justify the means in George's mind, no? The books are about how being shitty and doing the right thing make you a good guy (hence Stannis killing Renly doesn't matter so much if he turns around and defends his innocent subjects from the wildlings). A divine shepherd Bran could break the power of the nobility and enforce the reforms of Aegon V easily enough. If the price for that is mind-raping some people then, well, it wouldn't be so bad.

I don't think 'King Bran' as such would be confirmed since I expect George's version of the story to differ considerably from the 'game of thrones' crap from the show. The ending could have a puppet mundane king and government in place, overseen by the old god Brandon Stark who, say, only makes his voice heard in religious rituals and portents (evil people kill themselves in their sleep or are devoured by animals). The idea that Bran's story involves his journey into 'the magical realm' only to return to the sphere of the mundane and discuss tax policies with Aragorn just seems childish.

But this doesn't mean couldn't be the true ruler of the continent. And he would rule all of Westeros, not just the Seven Kingdoms.

Stannis will end up a dead kinslayer who betrays everyone and everything he was originally fighting for, I hardly think this then makes his killing of Renly 'okay' what it will end up in hindsight is the act that started him down the dark path that ends with his death after he burns his daughter.

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Stannis will end up a dead kinslayer who betrays everyone and everything he was originally fighting for, I hardly think this then makes his killing of Renly 'okay' what it will end up in hindsight is the act that started him down the dark path that ends with his death after he burns his daughter.

Killing Shireen is going to be different from the Renly thing. That will be unforgivable. I don't think Stannis was on 'a dark path' as such. He is on an erratic path as many other characters are. He could have turned out good, but he won't, because he will decide to sacrifice his only child.

One expects the emptiness of the character after that decision to be reflected properly, i.e. by him being killed by his own men (the whole queen's men thing would be good for something if Axell Florent or some of Selyse's other people did away with him) and eventually turning into a wight.

[Cas Stark]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

Killing Shireen is going to be different from the Renly thing. That will be unforgivable. I don't think Stannis was on 'a dark path' as such. He is on an erratic path as many other characters are. He could have turned out good, but he won't, because he will decide to sacrifice his only child.

One expects the emptiness of the character after that decision to be reflected properly, i.e. by him being killed by his own men (the whole queen's men thing would be good for something if Axell Florent or some of Selyse's other people did away with him) and eventually turning into a wight.

Killing his brother did indeed put him on a dark path, not only did he kill his brother, rather than partner with him to defeat the real enemies, he used black magic to do so, and all because of his inflexibility...I suggest that this dot will directly connect to him burning his own daughter....he 'won' using magic/murder once, so he will try it again.  I'm sorry that Stannis will have such an ignominious ending, I had hoped for at least a good, clean, heroic death, but apparently, that isn't in the cards. 

[SeanF]

6 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Killing his brother did indeed put him on a dark path, not only did he kill his brother, rather than partner with him to defeat the real enemies, he used black magic to do so, and all because of his inflexibility...I suggest that this dot will directly connect to him burning his own daughter....he 'won' using magic/murder once, so he will try it again.  I'm sorry that Stannis will have such an ignominious ending, I had hoped for at least a good, clean, heroic death, but apparently, that isn't in the cards. 

I had thought Melisandre would burn Shireen in order to resurrect Jon, but I don't think the timeline fits.  I expect that she will be burned as a sacrifice against the Others.  Assuming Jon has been revived, I wonder hoe he'll react.

[Cas Stark]

3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I had thought Melisandre would burn Shireen in order to resurrect Jon, but I don't think the timeline fits.  I expect that she will be burned as a sacrifice against the Others.  Assuming Jon has been revived, I wonder hoe he'll react.

I just thought that Mel would have done it on her own w/out Stannis approval.  I really didn't see him descending that far into outright evil, especially after having told whatshisname that if he died his men were to keep fighting for his daughter's birthright. 

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I just thought that Mel would have done it on her own w/out Stannis approval.  I really didn't see him descending that far into outright evil, especially after having told whatshisname that if he died his men were to keep fighting for his daughter's birthright. 

Will Martin portray it as evil, if the Others have breached the Wall?  For all we know, Jon might be on board with Stannis’ decision.  He did threaten to burn Gilly’s child, after all.

[Cas Stark]

9 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Will Martin portray it as evil, if the Others have breached the Wall?  For all we know, Jon might be on board with Stannis’ decision.  He did threaten to burn Gilly’s child, after all.

That was an empty threat.  And Jon would never agree to such a thing.  

PS...I would say yes, GRRM will show it is evil, and pointless, because given the show ending, the entire point of Dany's story is that both your actions and your intentions have to match, the ends does not justify the means, wantonly committing genocide against 'bad societies' is the road to ruin and death. 

[TargBastard0]

57 minutes ago, MissM said:

Could you share the chapter on how the show and books diverged? 

If you tell me which one is that i will. Here are the contents:
 

Spoiler

CONTENTS
PREFACE
Finding Westeros

CHAPTER ONE
A Dream of Dragons

CHAPTER TWO
Casting Tales

CHAPTER THREE
“You Guys Have a Massive Problem”

CHAPTER FOUR
“My Book Come to Life”

CHAPTER FIVE
Enter the Dragon

CHAPTER SIX
Learning to Die

CHAPTER SEVEN
Fresh Blood

CHAPTER EIGHT
The Battle of the Battle of the Blackwater

CHAPTER NINE
Fire and Ice

CHAPTER TEN
“This Is Going to Be Good”

CHAPTER ELEVEN
The Red Wedding

CHAPTER TWELVE
Mummer’s Farce

CHAPTER THIRTEEN
“Go in Screaming”

CHAPTER FOURTEEN
The Purple Wedding

CHAPTER FIFTEEN
Trial and Tribulations

CHAPTER SIXTEEN
The Biggest Show in the World

CHAPTER SEVENTEEN
The Forks in the Road

CHAPTER EIGHTEEN
A Detour to Dorne

CHAPTER NINETEEN
Running on Faith

CHAPTER TWENTY
“Shame . . . Shame . . . Shame . . .”

CHAPTER TWENTY-ONE
Romance Dies

CHAPTER TWENTY-TWO
Playing Dead

CHAPTER TWENTY-THREE
The Pack Survives

CHAPTER TWENTY-FOUR
The Magnificent “Bastards”

CHAPTER TWENTY-FIVE
All Shows Must Die

CHAPTER TWENTY-SIX
Shipping Out

CHAPTER TWENTY-SEVEN
A Sort of Homecoming

CHAPTER TWENTY-EIGHT
Walks and Talks

CHAPTER TWENTY-NINE
The Longest Night

CHAPTER THIRTY
The Things We Love Destroy Us

CHAPTER THIRTY-ONE
Many Partings

CHAPTER THIRTY-TWO
And Now the Watch Has Ended

 

[TargBastard0]

Btw i honestly feel that Martin is going nowhere with his story - if you look at his interviews he should have written the whole story and a bit more untill now... I mean in 2015 he said he has hundreds of pages and that he is almost done? I even remember something like saying the book will probably come out next year(2016). And now its 2020 and he still writes. I feel that this show and the reactions to it made him rethink on what is he really doing with the story. I mean... lets say it frankly - he has a HUGE ego and u cant really say people loved season 8. And this story like any story is about the end game and the resolution of all the knots. I think he is changing a lot and rewriting a lot and this is why it takes him so much time.

Having said that i am pessimistic that we will get WoW at all.