Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon Book

[MissM]

1 hour ago, bluntt said:

If you tell me which one is that i will. Here are the contents:
 

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CONTENTS
PREFACE
Finding Westeros

CHAPTER ONE
A Dream of Dragons

CHAPTER TWO
Casting Tales

CHAPTER THREE
“You Guys Have a Massive Problem”

CHAPTER FOUR
“My Book Come to Life”

CHAPTER FIVE
Enter the Dragon

CHAPTER SIX
Learning to Die

CHAPTER SEVEN
Fresh Blood

CHAPTER EIGHT
The Battle of the Battle of the Blackwater

CHAPTER NINE
Fire and Ice

CHAPTER TEN
“This Is Going to Be Good”

CHAPTER ELEVEN
The Red Wedding

CHAPTER TWELVE
Mummer’s Farce

CHAPTER THIRTEEN
“Go in Screaming”

CHAPTER FOURTEEN
The Purple Wedding

CHAPTER FIFTEEN
Trial and Tribulations

CHAPTER SIXTEEN
The Biggest Show in the World

CHAPTER SEVENTEEN
The Forks in the Road

CHAPTER EIGHTEEN
A Detour to Dorne

CHAPTER NINETEEN
Running on Faith

CHAPTER TWENTY
“Shame . . . Shame . . . Shame . . .”

CHAPTER TWENTY-ONE
Romance Dies

CHAPTER TWENTY-TWO
Playing Dead

CHAPTER TWENTY-THREE
The Pack Survives

CHAPTER TWENTY-FOUR
The Magnificent “Bastards”

CHAPTER TWENTY-FIVE
All Shows Must Die

CHAPTER TWENTY-SIX
Shipping Out

CHAPTER TWENTY-SEVEN
A Sort of Homecoming

CHAPTER TWENTY-EIGHT
Walks and Talks

CHAPTER TWENTY-NINE
The Longest Night

CHAPTER THIRTY
The Things We Love Destroy Us

CHAPTER THIRTY-ONE
Many Partings

CHAPTER THIRTY-TWO
And Now the Watch Has Ended

 

17, 21, 26, 29 sound interesting. Thanks  a lot for sharing. 

[SeanF]

49 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

That was an empty threat.  And Jon would never agree to such a thing.  

PS...I would say yes, GRRM will show it is evil, and pointless, because given the show ending, the entire point of Dany's story is that both your actions and your intentions have to match, the ends does not justify the means, wantonly committing genocide against 'bad societies' is the road to ruin and death. 

I think that Martin is actually more sympathetic than you might think towards consequentialist ethics. Dany's big problem in Slavers Bay is that she  shied away from doing what needed to be done with the Masters and their soldiers (one thing the show got wrong was that actually her instinct, to butcher the Yunkish masters as soon as they broke their treaty, was right in a military leader).   Martin has always said WWII was worth fighting, and our leaders were nothing if not brutal, in that conflict.  I don't think tha Whiggish reform is going to take place in Essos.

I think the moral danger for Dany lies not in what she's likely to do in Slavers Bay and Volantis, in TWOW, (I think the Masters will be slaughtered) but rather being torn between her altruistic goals and her more selfish goals.

[TargBastard0]

6 minutes ago, MissM said:

17, 21, 26, 29 sound interesting. Thanks  a lot for sharing. 

https://pastebin.com/j8khSq44
https://pastebin.com/Za0Ydd5H
https://pastebin.com/YsnHqYkL
https://pastebin.com/QiKSSM80
I think 17 is the one you need for book to show and where GRRM really got off the hook.

[Cas Stark]

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I think that Martin is actually more sympathetic than you might think towards consequentialist ethics. Dany's big problem in Slavers Bay is that she  shied away from doing what needed to be done with the Masters and their soldiers (one thing the show got wrong was that actually her instinct, to butcher the Yunkish masters as soon as they broke their treaty, was right in a military leader).   Martin has always said WWII was worth fighting, and our leaders were nothing if not brutal, in that conflict.  

I think the moral danger for Dany lies not in what she's likely to do in Slavers Bay and Volantis, in TWOW, (I think the Masters will be slaughtered) but rather being torn between her altruistic goals and her more selfish goals.

Sure, WWII was worth fighting, but the allies didn't roll into Germany and kill all the men over the age of 13, or even all of the soldiers or all the Nazis, nor did they divest the Germans or even the Nazis of their property or livlihood,  instead, they created a fairly meticulous, evidence based process to prosecute war criminals and spent a vast amount of money rebuilding and deprogramming the country.  

[Prince of the North]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I had thought Melisandre would burn Shireen in order to resurrect Jon, but I don't think the timeline fits.  I expect that she will be burned as a sacrifice against the Others.  Assuming Jon has been revived, I wonder hoe he'll react.

Hmm...really curious how Martin's gonna get Stannis and Shireen together in order for Stannis to have her burned?  I mean, they're currently about 600 miles apart in the story and the weather is certainly not conducive to travel.  I guess he could send messages but...for what?  It just doesn't seem to make much sense.

[Frey family reunion]

3 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

Hmm...really curious how Martin's gonna get Stannis and Shireen together in order for Stannis to have her burned?  I mean, they're currently about 600 miles apart in the story and the weather is certainly not conducive to travel.  I guess he could send messages but...for what?  It just doesn't seem to make much sense.

Yea, that's a problem.  My best guess is that the decsion to burn Shireen may come from Selyse as opposed to Stannis.

[Prince of the North]

Just now, Frey family reunion said:

Yea, that's a problem.  My best guess is that the decsion to burn Shireen may come from Shireen as opposed to Stannis.

You mean Melisandre/Selyse, right?  Or are you saying Shireen will volunteer herself to be burned?

[Cas Stark]

1 minute ago, Prince of the North said:

Hmm...really curious how Martin's gonna get Stannis and Shireen together in order for Stannis to have her burned?  I mean, they're currently about 600 miles apart in the story and the weather is certainly not conducive to travel.  I guess he could send messages but...for what?  It just doesn't seem to make much sense.

I guess it will happen later in the narrative, where possibly Stannis has defeated the Boltons and now controls the North, so he could either bring her to Winterfell/go back himself to the wall or order her death from WF as a way to stop the Others.  

[Frey family reunion]

Just now, Prince of the North said:

You mean Melisandre/Selyse, right?  Or are you saying Shireen will volunteer herself to be burned?

Yea, Selyse, I edited it right before your post.

[SeanF]

20 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Sure, WWII was worth fighting, but the allies didn't roll into Germany and kill all the men over the age of 13, or even all of the soldiers or all the Nazis, nor did they divest the Germans or even the Nazis of their property or livlihood,  instead, they created a fairly meticulous, evidence based process to prosecute war criminals and spent a vast amount of money rebuilding and deprogramming the country.  

I find Daenerys' actions against the Masters easier to justify, at an ethical level, than I would raining incendiaries on enemy cities, or expelling millions of civilians from Eastern Germany or the Sudetenland, most of whom did indeed lose their property and livelihoods as a result.  And, there was a hell of lot of summary justice meted out to members of the Ustasha, SS Totenkopf, Kaminski Brigade, etc. who fell into allied hands.

The Great/Wise/Good Masters are not innocent bystanders who don't have a clue what's happening.

[Cas Stark]

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I find Daenerys' actions against the Masters easier to justify, at an ethical level, than I would raining incendiaries on enemy cities, or expelling millions of civilians from Eastern Germany, most of whom did indeed lose their property and livelihoods as a result.  And, there was a hell of lot of summary justice meted out to members of the Ustasha, SS Totenkopf, etc. who fell into allied hands.

I  mean, she basically committed an ethnic cleansing in Astapor, I don't see how that is possibly morally justified because the idea that anyone living in an unjust society is as guilty as the worst member/actions is to me insane and evil in and of itself.  If she had just rounded up the actual Masters involved in the repugnant training of the unsullied and had them killed, that would be different, that would be justice. Summary 'justice' isn't the same, you didn't have Eisenhower ordering this stuff or officially condoning it. But I suspect we're never going to agree on Dany and where her actions fall on the moral spectrum.

[Prince of the North]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

I guess it will happen later in the narrative, where possibly Stannis has defeated the Boltons and now controls the North, so he could either bring her to Winterfell/go back himself to the wall or order her death from WF as a way to stop the Others.  

But why would travel be any easier anytime soon in the story?  And it doesn't look good at all (at least in the North...and moving southward).  Seasons last a long time and, of course, this is shaping up to be a really, really bad winter (cough Others cough).  It seems to me, if it happens, it'll be via ravens.  And even that is dicey in the current circumstances but, I guess, if enough are sent at least one will make it.  

[Cas Stark]

2 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

But why would travel be any easier anytime soon in the story?  And it doesn't look good at all (at least in the North...and moving southward).  Seasons last a long time and, of course, this is shaping up to be a really, really bad winter (cough Others cough).  It seems to me, if it happens, it'll be via ravens.  And even that is dicey in the current circumstances but, I guess, if enough are sent at least one will make it.  

There might be a break in the weather? where they make a last ditch attempt at travel?   I think it would really suck if Stannis is such a fucking coward that he would order his daughter burned alive and not even be there to witness it, but like I said, I had not really believed he would ever order it at all, since last we saw him he won't even burn his prisoners to try and improve things.

[SeanF]

12 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I  mean, she basically committed an ethnic cleansing in Astapor, I don't see how that is possibly morally justified because the idea that anyone living in an unjust society is as guilty as the worst member/actions is to me insane and evil in and of itself.  If she had just rounded up the actual Masters involved in the repugnant training of the unsullied and had them killed, that would be different, that would be justice. Summary 'justice' isn't the same, you didn't have Eisenhower ordering this stuff or officially condoning it. But I suspect we're never going to agree on Dany and where her actions fall on the moral spectrum.

Ethnic cleansing is murdering/expelling an entire people.  This is more akin to the massacre of plantation owners in Haiti in the 1790’s.

[Prince of the North]

4 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

There might be a break in the weather? where they make a last ditch attempt at travel?   I think it would really suck if Stannis is such a fucking coward that he would order his daughter burned alive and not even be there to witness it, but like I said, I had not really believed he would ever order it at all, since last we saw him he won't even burn his prisoners to try and improve things.

Agreed.  But a break in the weather seems unlikely in what it seems to me is the story Martin has been writing all this time.  I think we saw at the end of ADWD the "snows falling and the white winds blowing" that Ned spoke of and that winter is no longer "coming", it's arrived.  I'll wait to see just what Martin does with this, of course (duh, what else can I do?), but I remain skeptical about Stannis burning Shireen.  Something along those lines may happen in the story, of course, but there has to be more to it.     

[Cas Stark]

3 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

Agreed.  But a break in the weather seems unlikely in what it seems to me is the story Martin has been writing all this time.  I think we saw at the end of ADWD the "snows falling and the white winds blowing" that Ned spoke of and that winter is no longer "coming", it's arrived.  I'll wait to see just what Martin does with this, of course (duh, what else can I do?), but I remain skeptical about Stannis burning Shireen.  Something along those lines may happen in the story, of course, but there has to be more to it.     

The book directly quotes GRRM saying it was Stannis decision, so on what basis are you skeptical?

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Killing his brother did indeed put him on a dark path, not only did he kill his brother, rather than partner with him to defeat the real enemies, he used black magic to do so, and all because of his inflexibility...I suggest that this dot will directly connect to him burning his own daughter....he 'won' using magic/murder once, so he will try it again.  I'm sorry that Stannis will have such an ignominious ending, I had hoped for at least a good, clean, heroic death, but apparently, that isn't in the cards. 

The difference with Renly is that Renly wasn't innocent in all that. He didn't want to work with Stannis, either, and presumed to be the leader of that movement. Of course, the black magic thing as well as the fact that Stannis deliberately chose to ally with Mel because Selyse promised him that her magics could deliver Renly's men to Stannis shows that Stannis has no problems using deplorable methods to get what he wants.

But it is still a difference to murder your traitor brother and to murder an innocent child, much less your only child and future. Considering to sacrifice Edric was bad enough already - because Edric, too, was an innocent boy. But Shireen is a whole lot worse.

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

I had thought Melisandre would burn Shireen in order to resurrect Jon, but I don't think the timeline fits.  I expect that she will be burned as a sacrifice against the Others.  Assuming Jon has been revived, I wonder hoe he'll react.

That never made much sense since it would not make the best of that plot. It has to be the father who does it, not the 'evil witch'. And certainly not as a poor plot device to resurrect some other character.

2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I just thought that Mel would have done it on her own w/out Stannis approval.  I really didn't see him descending that far into outright evil, especially after having told whatshisname that if he died his men were to keep fighting for his daughter's birthright. 

That indicates we won't see the Shireen sacrifice soon. If Stannis is still hellbent that his daughter should succeed him if he were to die in battle, then something has to happen for him to reconsider that.

And that essentially has to mean the Others. Only if Stannis has to choose between all humanity/Westeros and his daughter will he decide to sacrifice her. And we are nowhere near that point ... which is why I asked above when you guys think this Shireen thing can happen. Do we believe the Others can already be a huge threat half-way through TWoW when they didn't even show up in ADwD? Can the Wall fall or be really under threat when Dany's gang is still stuck in Essos?

I don't think so ... meaning I'm not holding my breath for Shireen dying in the next book. Things might start to get dire in TWoW but not that dire.

Even more so in light of the fact that Shireen's greyscale plot has to come into play before they will consider sacrificing her.

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

Will Martin portray it as evil, if the Others have breached the Wall?  For all we know, Jon might be on board with Stannis’ decision.  He did threaten to burn Gilly’s child, after all.

Stannis is a false savior, a lie to be slain. He and Aegon and the shadow beast thing will make things worse, not better. Thus everything they do, even if they are well-intentioned, will play directly or indirectly into the hands of the Others.

I could see George play this thing so that the sacrifice as such is seen as the right thing ... but only if the savior/chosen one were the one doing it. Which Stannis won't be, so the thing is going to make things worse.

But then, I don't think that a child sacrifice is going to be depicted in a 'sympathetic light' in this series, especially not when the father commands it. People might understand why Stannis thinks he has to do this, but I don't think anybody is going to tell him that he is doing the right thing. And neither will he himself.

George set the character up to break ... and he will break himself when he does that. And I think that's also going to be the end of the rope for Mel in the books, since we do have other red priests in the story. George won't need her to side with Jon or Dany or whoever else.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

Sure, WWII was worth fighting, but the allies didn't roll into Germany and kill all the men over the age of 13, or even all of the soldiers or all the Nazis, nor did they divest the Germans or even the Nazis of their property or livlihood,  instead, they created a fairly meticulous, evidence based process to prosecute war criminals and spent a vast amount of money rebuilding and deprogramming the country.  

Well, the bombs did kill tens of thousands of people indiscriminately. Daenerys is much kinder than FDR and Churchill ever were.

[Cas Stark]

It is kind of odd that GRRM says the scene he hated the most wasn't, oh, maybe, Jon stabbing Dany, or Sansa feeding Ramsay to the dogs, or Sansa standing in for Jeyne, or Arya and the Hound announcing their identities in the Vale and being let go or any of the other dozens of incredibly dumb scenes in the show...but the scene he says he hated the most is Robert's hunting trip from season 1.

Much as I loath the Ds and their arrogance and incompetence, this somewhat shines a light on how GRRM might have been a somewhat unreasonable partner who lacks a bit of perspective.  At the time they had no money to stage a huge, realistic royal hunt......

[TargBastard0]

3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

It is kind of odd that GRRM says the scene he hated the most wasn't, oh, maybe, Jon stabbing Dany, or Sansa feeding Ramsay to the dogs, or Sansa standing in for Jeyne, or Arya and the Hound announcing their identities in the Vale and being let go or any of the other dozens of incredibly dumb scenes in the show...but the scene he says he hated the most is Robert's hunting trip from season 1.

Much as I loath the Ds and their arrogance and incompetence, this somewhat shines a light on how GRRM might have been a somewhat unreasonable partner who lacks a bit of perspective.  At the time they had no money to stage a huge, realistic royal hunt......

I strongly believe this question was asked way early in the show. Probably the first 2-3 seasons.