Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon Book

[Cas Stark]

Just now, SeanF said:

We know three big plot points.  If James Hibberd is telling the truth, the main characters' endings are different ones. The show was ultimately cynical, nihilistic, and depressing.  "Honour is stupid", being like Cersei or LF is sensible, abuse makes you stronger, etc. Martin may finish his tale the same way, but I hope not.  He says he is not a nihilistic writer, so hopefully, he'll keep his word.

I think you're reading that quote the wrong way, I think he meant all of his characters have their own 'different' endings, e.g. everyone has their own story;  because if he meant that every main character had a different ending from the one in the show it would be impossible for him to call it a faithful adaptation, which he has repeatedly said it was very faithful, that would be insane.   

 

 

[Cas Stark]

51 minutes ago, Dalinar said:

But it would fit to the overall tone of the books so far. I mean, when did anything remotely happy happend in the books that would suggest a sort of "happy ending"? This far the books have been nothing but depressing and to an extent nihilistic. The main theme, this far, has been the abuse of power, corruption and the cruelties that humans are able to comit to achieve their goals. Honorable men and honorable actions have led to nothing but death and destruction for those characters and their families. I think every reader hopes for a change in the tone at the end of the book series, that good people are rewarded and bad people are somehow punished. But looking the story so far, nothing points to that direction. And knowing the main plotpoints thrue the show (although not in detaill) we can be pretty sure, that the tone of the story will remain depressing. Good people are dead or broken at the end.

I had once expected that ultimately the Stark way of ruling--valuing and protecting all of your people, being honorable, self sacrifice, etc. would be seen to triumph because they inspired loyalty rather than fear.  I don't believe that anymore, which is why I don't expect I will even buy Winds if it ever comes out, as I'm not interested in reading more thousands of pages of loss, betrayal and destruction where the best ending is that characters are alive and broken beyond fixing.  

[SeanF]

22 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I think you're reading that quote the wrong way, I think he meant all of his characters have their own 'different' endings, e.g. everyone has their own story;  because if he meant that every main character had a different ending from the one in the show it would be impossible for him to call it a faithful adaptation, which he has repeatedly said it was very faithful, that would be insane.   

 

 

Hibberd emphasised "rather big differences" in the endings for the main characters, so far as he knew, 

Hello James.

1. From what you know, how much of the show's ending for the major characters (Jon, Dany, Arya, Tyrion, Bran, Sansa) aligns with what George is planning?

Quote

The fabled three big things GRRM told Dan and Dave that they used in the back seasons were Hodor's death (and origin story), Stannis burning Shireen and "who ends up on the Iron Throne." The only thing I can say aside from that is there will be some rather big differences.

Sounds interesting especially in the context of the question that is the main heroes.

People  have different ideas as to what a "faithful adaptation" is.  But, we know already that there are huge plot divergences between what has been published so far, what will likely be published, and what was in the show.  

Show Sansa combines the stories of four book characters (Sansa, Jeyne Poole, Alys Karstark, and Arianne Martell); the Vale plot is eliminated.  Arianne, fAegon, Jon Connington, and Lady Stoneheart were excluded, and parts of their stories redistributed to other characters.  If Daenerys dies, it will be by  some other way than Jon running her through the heart,  It's hard to imagine that Cersei remains on the Iron Throne to the end, and Jaime has definitively broken with her in the books.  The Dornish plot in the show could not be more different to the books.  Jon never goes to Hardhome. There is no Night King in the books.  Arya won't end a cosmic threat by springing out of a tree on the Great Other.   The Wall won't be brought down by an undead dragon.  There will be no wight hunt.   There will be some point to prophecies like TPWWP and Azhor Ahai.  The biggest likely difference is that the climax is the War for the Dawn, not the battle for Kings Landing, and that won't be over in a single evening.

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I had once expected that ultimately the Stark way of ruling--valuing and protecting all of your people, being honorable, self sacrifice, etc. would be seen to triumph because they inspired loyalty rather than fear.  I don't believe that anymore, which is why I don't expect I will even buy Winds if it ever comes out, as I'm not interested in reading more thousands of pages of loss, betrayal and destruction where the best ending is that characters are alive and broken beyond fixing.  

I don't think Martin is a writer like KJ Parker.  You really do want to slash your wrists after reading one of his novels.

[Dalinar]

20 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Hibberd emphasised "rather different" endings for the main characters, so far as he knew,  People  have different ideas as to what a "faithful adaptation" is.  But, we know already that there are huge plot divergences between what has been published so far, what will likely be published, and what was in the show.  

Show Sansa combines the stories of four book characters (Sansa, Jeyne Poole, Alys Karstark, and Arianne Martell); the Vale plot is eliminated.  Arianne, fAegon, Jon Connington, and Lady Stoneheart were excluded, and parts of their stories redistributed to other characters.  If Daenerys dies, it will be by  some other way than Jon running her through the heart,  It's hard to imagine that Cersei remains on the Iron Throne to the end, and Jaime has definitively broken with her in the books.  The Dornish plot in the show could not be more different to the books.  Jon never goes to Hardhome. There is no Night King in the books.  Arya won't end a cosmic threat by springing out of a tree on the Great Other.   The Wall won't be brought down by an undead dragon.  There will be no wight hunt.   There will be some point to prophecies like TPWWP and Azhor Ahai.  The biggest likely difference is that the climax is the War for the Dawn, not the battle for Kings Landing, and that won't be over in a single evening.

I think, and it should be general knowledge by now, that no one is arguing that the showplot is 100% accurate when it comes to the books. No one is saying - as it would be stupid- that what happens in the show will happen the same way in the books. What a lot of us are saying is that we know the destination of the main charcters and the end of the story. And it is enough to analyse where the story is heading in regard to tone. I don't have to know how many cities Danerys burns down, before she burns down KL. I just know it for sure that Daenerys will burn down KL and will be killed by Jon. That is enough. I also kmow that Bran will become King. That is enough. I know that Jon will be banned from the 7 Kingdoms. And that is enough. You get the ending, you get the tone. No one is arguing that the way will be different. And it should not allways end with this discussion, since obviously the way will differ. 

[SeanF]

6 minutes ago, Dalinar said:

I think, and it should be general knowledge by now, that no one is arguing that the showplot is 100% accurate when it comes to the books. No one is saying - as it would be stupid- that what happens in the show will happen the same way in the books. What a lot of us are saying is that we know the destination of the main charcters and the end of the story. And it is enough to analyse where the story is heading in regard to tone. I don't have to know how many cities Danerys burns down, before she burns down KL. I just know it for sure that Daenerys will burn down KL and will be killed by Jon. That is enough. I also kmow that Bran will become King. That is enough. I know that Jon will be banned from the 7 Kingdoms. And that is enough. You get the ending, you get the tone. No one is arguing that the way will be different. And it should not allways end with this discussion, since obviously the way will differ. 

The more something diverges from the source, the less likely it is to end up in the same place as the source.

It’s not that the show is virtually the same, bar a few minor differences.  These are huge differences.

[Dalinar]

23 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The more something diverges from the source, the less likely it is to end up in the same place as the source.

It’s not that the show is virtually the same, bar a few minor differences.  These are huge differences.

We have the following confirmations by D&D, the actors AND GRRM himself

- Bran sits on the Iron Throne 

- The fate of the main characters is pretty much the same.

I mean, what will you argue? 

[SeanF]

21 minutes ago, Dalinar said:

We have the following confirmations by D&D, the actors AND GRRM himself

- Bran sits on the Iron Throne 

- The fate of the main characters is pretty much the same.

I mean, what will you argue? 

We have the confirmation about Bran.  They certainly haven’t confirmed the latter.  

I’ve quoted Hibberd saying the opposite of the latter.  And, perhaps he’s being misleading, but I’ve seen nothing to the contrary.

 

 

 

 

[Cas Stark]

9 minutes ago, SeanF said:

We have the confirmation about Bran.  They certainly haven’t confirmed the latter.  

I’ve quoted Hibberd saying the opposite of the latter.  And, perhaps he’s being misleading, but I’ve seen nothing to the contrary.

 

 

 

 

We have literally years of quotes from Dan and Dave and George and HBO that say the show is a faithful adaptation, that they loved GRRM ending and they're using it, the ending will be appx. the same but the journey will be different, we have George's 60 Minutes interview done after season 8 had wrapped where he praises the show as a faithful adaptation.  Other than wishful thinking and taking a handful of quotes out of their full context there is no reason to believe at all that the show is not having the same endings for the main characters.  

Of course there will be 'big differences' in the final story, since the last 3 seasons of the show was nothing but plot holes strung together by CGI, that doesn't change the fact that there is probably a 97% chance that indeed Dany is murdered after going rogue, that Jon goes back to the wall forgotten by Westeros, that Arya leaves Westeros, that Sam writes the story, etc. etc. 

[SeanF]

I’m not talking about the middle game, I’m talking about the endgame.  TWOW and ADOS cannot possibly mirror the events of Seasons 7 and 8, even if one assumes (as I do) that the same main characters survive or die as in the show.  The characters in the show are different (often radically different) to their book counterparts.  That means their motivations will differ.

[Cas Stark]

5 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I’m not talking about the middle game, I’m talking about the endgame.  TWOW and ADOS cannot possibly mirror the events of Seasons 7 and 8, even if the same main characters survive or die as in the show.

Sure they can.  In broad strokes, we already knew Arya will come back to Westeros, we already knew that vengeance would come to the Freys, it will probably be very different than the show version, but the 'plot point' will still stand, Dany comes to Westeros, things don't go well, some of her dragons die, Euron plays a role in that, he will die at the end, probably not in a dipshit sword flight with Jamie, Jamie and Cersei will die together, we don't know if he kills her, probably, or if he fails at his redemption, the Vale aligns with the North which we already knew, LF dies, which we didn't know, but was always highly probable.  Dany dies, we didn't know that but it was always a major possibility.  I think we know that Jon's Targ blood will play a role, so that will be very different but will end at the same place: back in the North.  I personally hate Sansa becoming queen, but I won't pretend that the show doing it doesn't make it 97% more likely that is how it ends, she could be Rickon's guardian in the books.  We already know that everything that happens with Dorne is basically unimportant to the endgame since the Ds said they had considered omitting it entirely.  We already know there will be a battle against the Others.  I'm not sure who burns KL, but it has been heavily foreshadowed that it burns. 

This feels to me like everything is going to be at least 75% the same, and probably 90% the same for main character endings,  but we can disagree. 

[SeanF]

I'd say more like 30-40%  the same, especially if (as I expect) the order of events/importance - in terms of the fight for Kings Landing/War for the Dawn was flipped by the show runners.

[Cas Stark]

Again, I'll say that is wishful thinking that when the author says the show is 97% more faithful than most adaptations to believe that in truth it will only be 30% faithful to the main character endings, and I say this as someone who hated the ending, I hate Arya leaving, I hate Sansa as queen, I hate Jon going back to the North, I hate the dragons and wolves dying, I hate Tyrion being rewarded, I hate the Tyrells being obliterated, I hate Stannis burning his daughter, I hate a Jon/Dany romance, but on that I'm not sure that will happen, but it might, I hate Stoneheart not making enough impact to be included in the show, I don't hate Bran as King, because I will give GRRM credit to make that work somehow, but I will recognize that me hating it doesn't mean it isn't the author's plan.  

[Mystical]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

I personally hate Sansa becoming queen, but I won't pretend that the show doing it doesn't make it 97% more likely that is how it ends, she could be Rickon's guardian in the books.

That's how I see it for example, Sansa will probably be Rickon's regent/caretaker. I mainly think that because there has to be a point that part of Sansa's current arc includes the handling of a 'difficult child'. Sure Robert is a different kind of difficult than Rickon but having experience in that area is helpful. I don't see any other reason why GRRM would have gone there in Sansa's arc, seeing as taking care of Robert was not necessary for her arc of de-facto Lady of the Eyrie and running the show there or to be 'training' with LF to become a better a player. And because they killed off Rickon in the show (despite GRRM's wishes), Sansa ends up as the actual ruler of both WF and the North.

[Lord Varys]

The show is still a faithful adaptation for all the books it adapted. AGoT-ASoS are pretty faithfully adapted, and if the ending sucks/is completely different then this doesn't really unmake the fact that the earlier seasons were reasonably faithful.

The idea that the ending decides whether something is a faithful adaptation or not isn't really convincing ... especially not when the books haven't been written yet.

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Again, I'll say that is wishful thinking that when the author says the show is 97% more faithful than most adaptations to believe that in truth it will only be 30% faithful to the main character endings, and I say this as someone who hated the ending, I hate Arya leaving, I hate Sansa as queen, I hate Jon going back to the North, I hate the dragons and wolves dying, I hate Tyrion being rewarded, I hate the Tyrells being obliterated, I hate Stannis burning his daughter, I hate a Jon/Dany romance, but on that I'm not sure that will happen, but it might, I hate Stoneheart not making enough impact to be included in the show, I don't hate Bran as King, because I will give GRRM credit to make that work somehow, but I will recognize that me hating it doesn't mean it isn't the author's plan.  

If the author just gives us a bleak, dismal, bitter, ending, well the series will be forgotten.  People will assume he was just trolling his readers.  

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

If the author just gives us a bleak, dismal, bitter, ending, well the series will be forgotten.  People will assume he was just trolling his readers.  

To be sure, only one of George's book has sort of a good ending - 'The Armageddon Rag'. 'Dying of the Light' has a hideous ending (if you can call it an ending - I say it has sort of an ending for one character), and 'Fevre Dream' has some sort of lukewarm 'not everybody died in the fighting' ending. 'Windhaven' and the Tuf stories also have no ending.

And if you imagine the Dunk & Egg series - that, too, would have a hideous ending if the author ever got to it. Fire and death and the prospect of a madman taking the reins of power soon.

[Cas Stark]

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

To be sure, only one of George's book has sort of a good ending - 'The Armageddon Rag'. 'Dying of the Light' has a hideous ending (if you can call it an ending - I say it has sort of an ending for one character), and 'Fevre Dream' has some sort of lukewarm 'not everybody died in the fighting' ending. 'Windhaven' and the Tuf stories also have no ending.

And if you imagine the Dunk & Egg series - that, too, would have a hideous ending if the author ever got to it. Fire and death and the prospect of a madman taking the reins of power soon.

Yeah, and if I had known all that....the history of unfinished stories and the terrible, nihilistic, tragic endings I probably wouldn't have ever picked up GOT in the first place. It very well could turn out that the showrunners, panderers that they are at heart, tried to cheer up the basic ending GRRM gave them.   Instead of Arya leaving her family and country as tragic, the show tried to show it as decision as great and empowering.  Same with Jon, happy music and adoring wildlings and a big dog to make the audience forget how hard that life would be.  Tyrion hasn't changed a bit, still on top, still cracking jokes [okay, that might be from GRRM].  Bran's loss of humanity, no big deal.    And so on. 

[Lord Varys]

34 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Yeah, and if I had known all that....the history of unfinished stories and the terrible, nihilistic, tragic endings I probably wouldn't have ever picked up GOT in the first place. It very well could turn out that the showrunners, panderers that they are at heart, tried to cheer up the basic ending GRRM gave them.   Instead of Arya leaving her family and country as tragic, the show tried to show it as decision as great and empowering.  Same with Jon, happy music and adoring wildlings and a big dog to make the audience forget how hard that life would be.  Tyrion hasn't changed a bit, still on top, still cracking jokes [okay, that might be from GRRM].  Bran's loss of humanity, no big deal.    And so on. 

Well, that I don't buy. I expect ASoIaF to end the way George's other story also do to a point, but theme-wise to focus more on the, well, core theme. Which isn't who rules and what this or that entitled aristocratic prick wants, but how society and characters are changed by the War for the Dawn. And what it costs people to win that most important of fights.

This idea people had that the political stuff mattered was always silly. Littlefinger and Varys are nice distractions, but they are just distractions. They don't really understand what's going on or what matters in the end. And the smart people understood that back in ACoK when Tyrion ridiculed Alliser Thorne. The joke is that people fail to understand what's going on until it is (almost) too late. Not that Tyrion is right and it is more important who sits the Iron Throne than to deal with the ice demons ... or that some deus ex machina is going to take care of them without the schemers ever having to lift a finger to help.

This will be post-apocalyptic society. And it will show. And it will be a society where magic and sorcerers will rule again if Bran truly becomes a mundane king ... which I still cannot believe because that's just silly.

But what's also clear to me is that the show ending as such - meaning political nonsense as the grand finale - won't happen. Jon and Dany and many other people might die, but if they do, it will be in the fight against the Others, their minions, or crucial mad dark lord characters like Euron-Cersei-Qyburn, but we won't get a story where mundane childish politics serve as an epilogue to the final battle between good and evil.

[Cas Stark]

 Scouring of the Shire.  Epilogue.  The show fucked up that balance like they did everything else, but the story and the characters are what the audience is invested in, not the final battle against an enemy with no POV.