Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon Book

[The Bard of Banefort]

The most compelling theory I've read about Shireen's death is that her greyscale will resurface and Stannis will have her burned to prevent it from spreading to his army. With that in mind, this would mean that Stannis either wins the Battle of Winterfell and summons Selyse and Shireen to join him, or he loses and retreats to the Wall. I find it more likely that he wins, since we already saw him start at Dragonstone, lose King's Landing, and then retreat to Dragonstone again, and GRRM is pretty good about not repeating plot beats. 

The ending of ASOIAF looks like it will be a reverse of LOTR, with magic returning instead of dissipating. I like the theory that Bran will end up ruling from Harrenhall after King's Landing is destroyed. Although there's something undoubtedly spooky about King Bran, I think Hold the Door will probably be a wake-up call for him. I find it more likely that he'll learn from the experience rather than continue invading others' minds.

D&D always portrayed Daenerys' violence as female empowerment and they're full of sh*t to claim otherwise. They absolutely led the audience to believe that Dany was a hero by taking out her enemies, and those of us who thought she was cruel were considered killjoys or, God forbid, bad feminists 

In A Storm of Swords, Dany is practically aroused by the sight of the slavers being killed by the Unsullied. She gets high off of the power, and I think that was intentional. Her decision to be a dragon rather than a peacemaker at the end of ADWD also suggests a darker path ahead. On the show, everything was presented at face value, and anyone who questioned Dany's motives was portrayed as either a rapist or a sissy. 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

 Scouring of the Shire.  Epilogue.  The show fucked up that balance like they did everything else, but the story and the characters are what the audience is invested in, not the final battle against an enemy with no POV.

I doubt there is a need for a 'Scouring of the Shire' in ASoIaF. Nobody is going to care who rules 'the Shire' aka Pyke or Tarth or Estermont after the Others are dealt with.

The main plot of ASoIaF is about a couple of (future) magical savior figures and the prophecy surrounding them. That is what Jon and Dany are all about. And the plot of the other characters is how they will react and behave when they finally have to deal with the real stuff. The magic and the demons and the dragons.

Not political nonsense.

And of course the show could have been about how humanity deals with the prospect of eternal winter and annihilation at the hands of ice demons. That was the theme.

[Lord Varys]

30 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The most compelling theory I've read about Shireen's death is that her greyscale will resurface and Stannis will have her burned to prevent it from spreading to his army. With that in mind, this would mean that Stannis either wins the Battle of Winterfell and summons Selyse and Shireen to join him, or he loses and retreats to the Wall. I find it more likely that he wins, since we already saw him start at Dragonstone, lose King's Landing, and then retreat to Dragonstone again, and GRRM is pretty good about not repeating plot beats. 

I think the greyscale might resurface, but Stannis wouldn't kill his daughter to save his army but ... rather imprison/isolate said daughter and use magic and sacrifices to heal her. Which might even be possible considering what Moqorro did with Victarion.

No, Shireen will burn as a sacrifice. The point of that sacrifice is unclear so far, but it must be something hugely important for Stannis' rule as Azor Ahai. And since he is a false savior it won't work and it will destroy him and most or all of the people believing in him.

Stannis shouldn't remain at Winterfell if he wins his war. Not just because he has to clean up Jon's mess, but also because George gave Stannis his Nightfort plot all the way back in ASoS ... and he continued that in ADwD. Selyse only came to CB to continue to her new seat, the Nightfort. And that's where Stannis and she will be in TWoW, eventually.

But then - as I asked repeatedly: Does anybody think Shireen can burn in TWoW if her sacrifice revolved around Others business and a severe threat?

I'd not be surprised if he didn't get in the next book.

30 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The ending of ASOIAF looks like it will be a reverse of LOTR, with magic returning instead of dissipating. I like the theory that Bran will end up ruling from Harrenhall after King's Landing is destroyed. Although there's something undoubtedly spooky about King Bran, I think Hold the Door will probably be a wake-up call for him. I find it more likely that he'll learn from the experience rather than continue invading others' minds.

I'd only be surprised if he had a proper seat. He will be a living god and would have no need whatsoever to allow his subjects-worshippers to look on his frail and broken human body. He would be everywhere and could make his voice heard and obeyed without even possessing other people.

In fact, the only way Bran can reasonably be expected to live and rule is if (1) nobody finds out where he actually is, and (2) nobody remembers the actual limits and weaknesses of greenseers. Because it stands to reason that people are not keen to serve a ten-year-old cripple.

Chances are much better than Bran will find a number of permanent Hodor-like avatars/mouthpieces.

Considering the Hodor-thing is likely to save Bran and/or Meera's life, I don't think he will decide this was something unspeakable.

More so, it might only the start for him. He will play a crucial role in the fight against the Others. It shouldn't matter how many pawns he sacrifices or mutilates if the good guys win the day in the end.

30 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

D&D always portrayed Daenerys' violence as female empowerment and they're full of sh*t to claim otherwise. They absolutely led the audience to believe that Dany was a hero by taking out her enemies, and those of us who thought she was cruel were considered killjoys or, God forbid, bad feminists 

In A Storm of Swords, Dany is practically aroused by the sight of the slavers being killed by the Unsullied. She gets high off of the power, and I think that was intentional. Her decision to be a dragon rather than a peacemaker at the end of ADWD also suggests a darker path ahead. On the show, everything was presented at face value, and anyone who questioned Dany's motives was portrayed as either a rapist or a sissy. 

That question is totally moot considering we can now be reasonably sure that the Dany ending is not one of the three big moments the morons took from the books.

And in light of that it is just as likely that Cersei goes down the way she did in the show than that Dany and Jon and Tyrion and everybody else go down the way they do in the show.

[The Dragon Demands]

James Hibberd Lies to Game of Thrones Fans at SDCC & in his New Book, " Fire Cannot Kill A Dragon "

 

[The Dragon Demands]

On 10/7/2020 at 7:46 AM, Lord Varys said:

And anyone ... do we believe George will get to Stannis burning Shireen in TWoW, or is that going to be a shuffled to ADoS?

Hibberd has pervasively lied to us for years, and along with D&D twisted and distorted facts.

We don't know if GRRM even said "Stannis" burns Shireen to him, or if he paraphrased that.

But even if GRRM did say that, it's irrelevant: the context could be so radically changed that what the TV show did was still a truncated abomination.

The simple answer is we won't know what happens in the next book....until we read the next book.

He who sees through the eyes of Morgoth sees all things crooked.  I take no meaning from his quote in Hibberd's book one way or the other.

[Dalinar]

1 hour ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Hibberd has pervasively lied to us for years, and along with D&D twisted and distorted facts.

We don't know if GRRM even said "Stannis" burns Shireen to him, or if he paraphrased that.

But even if GRRM did say that, it's irrelevant: the context could be so radically changed that what the TV show did was still a truncated abomination.

The simple answer is we won't know what happens in the next book....until we read the next book.

He who sees through the eyes of Morgoth sees all things crooked.  I take no meaning from his quote in Hibberd's book one way or the other.

This is some hard tinfoil. I don't know your academic or business background, but I can tell you, that if Hibbert was misquoting GRRM or putting words in his mouth, GRRM had definitively put his lawyers behind it and sued the crap out of him. Or at least he would have make a statement. 

It sounds very desperate, that I must say. And at best defamatory.

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Hibberd has pervasively lied to us for years, and along with D&D twisted and distorted facts.

We don't know if GRRM even said "Stannis" burns Shireen to him, or if he paraphrased that.

But even if GRRM did say that, it's irrelevant: the context could be so radically changed that what the TV show did was still a truncated abomination.

The simple answer is we won't know what happens in the next book....until we read the next book.

He who sees through the eyes of Morgoth sees all things crooked.  I take no meaning from his quote in Hibberd's book one way or the other.

Oh, I was just talking about the fact of the event, not the circumstances. And whatever else the showrunners botched with the Shireen thing - they got one thing right, the fact that Stannis does it. And that is what matters in the end. It is what makes this thing powerful and gripping.

If the evil red witch did it all by herself it would be much weaker as a plot point. Especially since Melisandre is, according to George, actually not that bad a person. Meaning that, in the end, Stannis might be driving force behind that sacrifice, completely absorbed by the delusion that he is the savior of mankind. His tragedy might very well be that he ends up finally believing the lie Mel told him again and again when she herself has (long) realized her mistake.

[The Dragon Demands]

Oh don’t get me wrong; just that I think the full context of this in the books will not redeem how Benioff and Weiss did it.

[The Map Guy]

For anyone that cares about my two cent, I am 100% sure GRRM told D&D the truth, but a truth that can be easily misinterpreted.

Remember GRRM asked D&D who Jon's mother was and they answered correctly? That was the truth, but a truth that was also misinterpreted.

Quote

 

GEORGE R. R. MARTIN: It wasn’t easy for me. I didn’t want to give away my books. It’s not easy to talk about the end of my books. Every character has a different end. I told them who would be on the Iron Throne, and I told them some big twists like Hodor and “hold the door,” and Stannis’s decision to burn his daughter. We didn’t get to everybody by any means. Especially the minor characters, who may have very different endings.

Stannis killing his daughter was one of the most agonizing scenes in Thrones and one of the moments Martin had told the producers he was planning for The Winds of Winter (though the book version of the scene will play out a bit differently).

GEORGE R. R. MARTIN: It’s an obscenity to go into somebody’s mind. So Bran may be responsible for Hodor’s simplicity, due to going into his mind so powerfully that it rippled back through time. The explanation of Bran’s powers, the whole question of time and causality—can we affect the past? Is time a river you can only sail one way or an ocean that can be affected wherever you drop into it? These are issues I want to explore in the book, but it’s harder to explain in a show. I thought they executed it very well, but there are going to be differences in the book. They did it very physical—“hold the door” with Hodor’s strength. In the book, Hodor has stolen one of the old swords from the crypt. Bran has been warging into Hodor and practicing with his body, because Bran had been trained in swordplay. So telling Hodor to “hold the door” is more like “hold this pass”—defend it when enemies are coming—and Hodor is fighting and killing them. A little different, but same idea.

 

The line is misinterpreted. GRRM said who would be on the Iron Throne ... BUT WHEN? Is he implying the ending? Or a random period in TWOW or ADOS? GRRM saying this line as is DOES NOT CONFIRM "King Bran".

"I told them who would be on the Iron Throne"

According to the show, you know who was never on the Iron Throne? Bran.
The Iron Throne was melted and Bran had a wheelchair the whole time.
Also don't forget, TV-Bran is not Bran Stark anymore. TV-Bran has stripped his name completely and has become the Three-Eyed Raven (whatever that means).

So what EXACTLY did GRRM say to D&D that made D&D think Bran would be king?
I can imagine GRRM telling D&D:

• The three-eyed crow wants the Iron Throne.
• After Dany dies on the Iron Throne, Bran is the last one standing in the finale.

For some idiots, this would mean Bran will be the king using these two points.
For others, this means something else entirely.

 

Hodor = "Hold the Door", but Hodor is also named Walder ... Wall-Door?

"hold the door" is more like "hold this pass"

Are we getting a "YOU SHALL NOT PASS!" scene at a door at the Wall, where Bran is warging into Hodor and fighting zombies?

 

Stannis burns Shireen ... but WHERE and WHY?

If Stannis is alive in TWOW to burn Shireen, that means Stannis never died at Winterfell. Book-Stannis and Book-Shireen are far far away from each other, and there would be no time for that. TV-Stannis burns TV-Shireen prior to the Winterfell battle.
Using this contradicting-logic, the TV scene cannot logistically happen in the books.

Anyways, is it possible that the Pink Letter is false now? And Stannis wins the Battle of Winterfell (with the help of the spear-wives) and creates an alliance with the Wildlings and Northerners? (D&D can throw their Battle of the Bastards TV-Emmy Award in the trash!)
To celebrate his Northern victory, he visits Shireen at the Nightfort ... only to realize the Long Night was beginning their invasion there. Having his daughter momentarily and then being separated .... Stannis sees from afar that Shireen and Patchface has been surrounded by resurrected-zombies. In a lost cause, Stannis orders Patchface to burn Shireen to save her from becoming a ice-zombie. After making this horrific decision to burn his own daughter alive to save her soul, Stannis's own soul "dies". End of TWOW Epilogue.

[Dalinar]

3 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

. GRRM said who would be on the Iron Throne ... BUT WHEN? Is he implying the ending? Or a random period in TWOW or ADOS

Oh, for Christ sake. He said it in the same paragraph, two lines before. How can you bold one line and forget to read two lines before:

3 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

It wasn’t easy for me. I didn’t want to give away my books. It’s not easy to talk about the end of my books. Every character has a different end. I told them who would be on the Iron Throne,

 

[SeanF]

NVM

[SeanF]

Benioff "He (Tywin) was ruthless for sure, but there's an argument to be had that Westeros needs ruthlessness.  I don't think of him as evil."

Weiss: " I would call him "lawful neutral."

The gang-rape of Tysha, the murder of Elia and her children, the enslavement of captives, the massacre of Riverlands peasants, is "lawful neutral."

OTOH, executing Lord Randyll Tarly or slave drivers was very sinister.  That says quite a lot about the two D's politics.

[Rose of Red Lake]

Shifting the topic a bit but GRRM saying that Littlefinger would never let Sansa go made me roll my eyes.

So Sansa will be molested in a more LOGICAL way!!

Can't wait!!!!!!!

 

 

[Dalinar]

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Shifting the topic a bit but GRRM saying that Littlefinger would never let Sansa go made me roll my eyes.

So Sansa will be molested in a more LOGICAL way!!

Can't wait!!!!!!!

 

 

Well, he wouldn't be the first creepy pedophile in the story, would he? 

[SeanF]

Maybe Sansa/LF will be a romance.

[ThotKiller]

On 10/7/2020 at 5:59 PM, Cas Stark said:

He did the 60 Minutes interview, where he praised the show as a faithful adaptation, just before season 8, which was years after the show went off the rails. 

THIS 

 George said " I don't hink D&D ending is gonna be that different from my ending"

Martin also said "A lot of people will say D&D ending is better than George gave us"

D&D ending was considered the worst ending of TV history and George thinks people will say D&D ending was better than his. 

For real i'm not excited for the end of the books anymore

[SeanF]

16 minutes ago, ThotKiller said:

THIS 

 George said " I don't hink D&D ending is gonna be that different from my ending"

Martin also said "A lot of people will say D&D ending is better than George gave us"

D&D ending was considered the worst ending of TV history and George thinks people will say D&D ending was better than his. 

For real i'm not excited for the end of the books anymore

Did he know the ending, when he gave the interview?  I can’t honestly credit that he thinks people will think that D & D came up with a better ending than his.  If so, we’ve just been wasting our time with this book series.

I don’t think there’s much dispute that Season 8 was almost universally derided.

[Dalinar]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

Did he know the ending, when he gave the interview?  I can’t honestly credit that he thinks people will think that D & D came up with a better ending than his.  If so, we’ve just been wasting our time with this book series.

I don’t think there’s much dispute that Season 8 was almost universally derided.

The executive producer didn't knew the ending? Sounds realistic. Do you know Ockhams razor? 

[SeanF]

25 minutes ago, Dalinar said:

The executive producer didn't knew the ending? Sounds realistic. Do you know Ockhams razor? 

Did he play any part in the production after Season 4? You think Martin watched Season 8, and thought, these guys came up with a better ending? You seem quite confident you know his mind more than anyone else on this forum, after all.

[Cas Stark]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Did he play any part in the production after Season 4? You think Martin watched Season 8, and thought, these guys came up with a better ending? You seem quite confident you know his mind more than anyone else on this forum, after all.

Martin is eccentric, but he isn't stupid, it beggars belief that he would go on TV and do interviews praising the show for being faithful when he had NO IDEA what the show's ending was, when in fact, he gave it to them and they always said they would use it.   Additionally, of course, he's part of the production team even if only in name and still working with HBO, so I mean, why keep it secret from him?? It isn't an issue of knowing anyone's mind but of evaluating the existing evidence and statements and probabilities of how people normally behave and what is a reasonable take-away.  GRRM doing 60 Minutes praising the show when he had no idea of what the season that was already wrapped included is not among the reasonable take aways.

Martin himself has praised some very questionable actions taken by the show in the past, such as saying he liked their version of the HookerWithTheHeartOfGold Shae better than his own.