Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon Book

[Nowy Tends]

On 12/22/2020 at 1:00 AM, outfast said:

Except the fact that practically ever since we were introduced to Dany [on her own, after her brother’s demise), she has threatened over and over and over and over to burn entire cities to the ground, women, children, pets, livestock, stick and stone “to the ground”.  SHE CONSTANTLY threatens and seems to fantasize about genocide has entire ancient and proud civil actions into

the dirt.  Anyone who didn’t see King’s Landing burning to the ground wasn’t paying attention or didn’t wanna see it coming.

This is bullshit.

In a world where everyone threatens everyone using violent metaphors ("I'll rape your corpses" - the Hound) but when a 14 year old blond flanked by 3 baby dragons and an exhausted micro-horde threatens to burn Qarth to the ground you seriously think she's going to come back to do so when she's Queen in Westeros?

[SeanF]

26 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

This is bullshit.

In a world where everyone threatens everyone using violent metaphors ("I'll rape your corpses" - the Hound) but when a 14 year old blond flanked by 3 baby dragons and an exhausted micro-horde threatens to burn Qarth to the ground you seriously think she's going to come back to do so when she's Queen in Westeros?

Not to mention the context, that she and her followers were told to Drop Dead, by the leaders of Qarth.  Qarth is probably where the show began to die, since it shows in microcosm what D & D would do once they started writing their own material.  Pointless conflict (she and the Spice King mouthing off at each other);  abrupt shifts in character with no explanation (Doreah turning traitor);  retconning (her Dothraki followers are all wiped out in one scene, but revived at the end);  and implausibility (Xaro is the king, yet for some reason, he has no guards on his palace and no money).

[Ghostlydragon]

13 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Not to mention the context, that she and her followers were told to Drop Dead, by the leaders of Qarth.  Qarth is probably where the show began to die, since it shows in microcosm what D & D would do once they started writing their own material.  Pointless conflict (she and the Spice King mouthing off at each other);  abrupt shifts in character with no explanation (Doreah turning traitor);  retconning (her Dothraki followers are all wiped out in one scene, but revived at the end);  and implausibility (Xaro is the king, yet for some reason, he has no guards on his palace and no money).

Agreed. I always point to s2 as the point the problems started showing and it's clearly the point where changes from the book that didn't work start, only to get worse later.

Seriously, what was wrong with Robb making a terrible mistake in his grief and having to face the consequences out of his belief in honour (not his) and Dany seeing visions of key events like a wedding where many bodies are on the floor and a blue eyed king who casts no shadow?

There are problems in s1 like dany being raped but s2 is absolutely where it really starts to fail.

[SeanF]

9 minutes ago, Ghostlydragon said:

Agreed. I always point to s2 as the point the problems started showing and it's clearly the point where changes from the book that didn't work start, only to get worse later.

Seriously, what was wrong with Robb making a terrible mistake in his grief and having to face the consequences out of his belief in honour (not his) and Dany seeing visions of key events like a wedding where many bodies are on the floor and a blue eyed king who casts no shadow?

There are problems in s1 like dany being raped but s2 is absolutely where it really starts to fail.

Time and again, the two D's took gold, and turned it into dross.  

[$erPounce]

That Qarth storyline in the TV series was awful.  The political-economic functioning of the city has been simplified a lot in the series. There are no trade guilds competing against each other in the TV series. The scale of the city is generally smaller.

That "vision" of the Red Wedding from the House of the Undying can be shown on TV without the event really being spoiled. It is possible to play with shadows to hide certain elements of it.

It's a pity that Rhaegar has never been shown before before season 7. Apart from the vision in the House of Undying, one could also perfectly show the tournament in Harrenhal, as well as some memories of Jaime and Cersei related to him. Rhaegar has had an important role once in the lives of many characters in the series.

It is strange that Daenerys' cherished memories of her childhood in The House with the Red Door are completely deleted. It is so important for her character. In the book canon Daenerys mainly seeks a home where she feels good and finds the ambitions for the Iron Throne less important. In the TV series Daenerys is an entitled spoiled brat who only longs to rule. Especially in the Qarth storyline in Game of Thrones Daenerys comes across as Viserys 2.0, which doesn't fit her character at this stage.

It's a shame how just about every (fever) dream, prophecy and memory from the books is ignored in the TV series. They are such an important aspect of the characters and help to express their internal struggles.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, $erPounce said:

That Qarth storyline in the TV series was awful.  The political-economic functioning of the city has been simplified a lot in the series. There are no trade guilds competing against each other in the TV series. The scale of the city is generally smaller.

That "vision" of the Red Wedding from the House of the Undying can be shown on TV without the event really being spoiled. It is possible to play with shadows to hide certain elements of it.

It's a pity that Rhaegar has never been shown before before season 7. Apart from the vision in the House of Undying, one could also perfectly show the tournament in Harrenhal, as well as some memories of Jaime and Cersei related to him. Rhaegar has had an important role once in the lives of many characters in the series.

It is strange that Daenerys' cherished memories of her childhood in The House with the Red Door are completely deleted. It is so important for her character. In the book canon Daenerys mainly seeks a home where she feels good and finds the ambitions for the Iron Throne less important. In the TV series Daenerys is an entitled spoiled brat who only longs to rule. Especially in the Qarth storyline in Game of Thrones Daenerys comes across as Viserys 2.0, which doesn't fit her character at this stage.

It's a shame how just about every (fever) dream, prophecy and memory from the books is ignored in the TV series. They are such an important aspect of the characters and help to express their internal struggles.

I can think of very few of the main characters who actually bore much resemblance to their book counterparts.  In the books, Tyrion is not a heroic pacifist;  Sansa is not Cersei 2.0;  Daenerys is not filled with bombast;  Arya is not a sadist;  Jon is not a jellyfish;  and Bran is not a cryptic robot. 

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, SeanF said:

Not to mention the context, that she and her followers were told to Drop Dead, by the leaders of Qarth.  Qarth is probably where the show began to die, since it shows in microcosm what D & D would do once they started writing their own material.  Pointless conflict (she and the Spice King mouthing off at each other);  abrupt shifts in character with no explanation (Doreah turning traitor);  retconning (her Dothraki followers are all wiped out in one scene, but revived at the end);  and implausibility (Xaro is the king, yet for some reason, he has no guards on his palace and no money).

A huge part of my emotional distancing from the show came when I did a rewatch, I think around the time of season 5 came out or so, and I had to watch the shit that was season 2 again - one thing I had nearly completely forgotten was the Jon-Ygritte nonsense, the depth of the Talisa shit, but, especially, how bad the Qarth storyline was. That is completely unwatchable. It makes no sense and we get the same dialogue over and over again - I'm a selfmade man, I'm a selfmade man, etc.

And this indeed foreshadows a lot since they do recycle the plot device there again and again - unmotivated/stupid betrayals, and people pretending to be rich. Xaro is basically Tywin 0.0., etc.

[SeanF]

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

A huge part of my emotional distancing from the show came when I did a rewatch, I think around the time of season 5 came out or so, and I had to watch the shit that was season 2 again - one thing I had nearly completely forgotten was the Jon-Ygritte nonsense, the depth of the Talisa shit, but, especially, how bad the Qarth storyline was. That is completely unwatchable. It makes no sense and we get the same dialogue over and over again - I'm a selfmade man, I'm a selfmade man, etc.

And this indeed foreshadows a lot since they do recycle the plot device there again and again - unmotivated/stupid betrayals, and people pretending to be rich. Xaro is basically Tywin 0.0., etc.

My emotional distance came very late.  It's because of what @Le Cygnecalls the sunk cost fallacy.  I so wanted a resolution (after waiting years for TWOW, and originally, my delight at seeing the books brought to screen) that I keep hoping it would end well, and I kept constructing scenarios in my mind to cover the plot holes.  But, even at the time, I was not impressed by the Qarth plot.  The House of the Undying aside, it's not that exciting a part of Dany's story.  Either, they should have started on Astapor, or else, used her sparingly in the season.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

My emotional distance came very late.  It's because of what @Le Cygnecalls the sunk cost fallacy.  I so wanted a resolution (after waiting years for TWOW, and originally, my delight at seeing the books brought to screen) that I keep hoping it would end well, and I kept constructing scenarios in my mind to cover the plot holes.  But, even at the time, I was not impressed by the Qarth plot.  The House of the Undying aside, it's not that exciting a part of Dany's story.  Either, they should have started on Astapor, or else, used her sparingly in the season.

As I've said repeatedly - the nail in the coffin for me were the broke Lannisters. I couldn't take stuff like that seriously. It was so stupid.

Earlier the same season, I think, came the nonsense of Loras having no brothers and being forced to join the KG - another stupid plot which showed how the show was reducing complexity in a most unpleasant way.

[The Dragon Demands]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Season 2 Qarth.... It makes no sense and we get the same dialogue over and over again - I'm a selfmade man, I'm a selfmade man, etc.

 

I don't suspect everything Benioff changed in the show was due to his personal issues....a handful are so directly similar to events from his own life though that they give me pause.

I've cited how I think he projected A LOT of his own father - Goldman Sachs CEO Stephen Friedman - onto Tywin.  How in interviews he'd go on bizarre rants about what a nice guy Tywin really is deep down. How he'd even invent scenes like Tywin warming to Arya, or most specifically....have Season 2 Tywin introduce that Jaime had dyslexia, and he read with him every night to help him overcome a disability like that (which Jaime later confirms in Season 3).

....If you actually read through Benioff's own statements about his childhood, or the bizarre self-insert characters in his books....or his own interviews....his father was a powerful, wealthy, but distant man who ignored him as the runt of the family. ---- And David's teeth were crippled because no one bought him braces as a child.  His father was a millionaire who didn't buy his own son braces as a child.  David goes off on a page-long rant about this 20 minutes into his book of short stories.  

It just horrifies me I didn't realize this until maybe Season 6: despite the thin veneer of good looks, David has horrifically crooked teeth - his incisors are bent inwards at a full 45 degrees. This is so bad that he had a lateral lisp and no one even pointed it out to him until 2003 or so (when you listen to his DVD commentary for 25th Hour the lisp is noticeable).  

So a STRANGER had to give him speech therapy lessons to overcome a lisp stemming from his horrifically crooked teeth, and from his writings, he's deeply resentful about this (it's not that his parents didn't believe in braces as a European thing or something - he goes on a rant about how his author-insert character's parents argued about which of them should pay for braces until ultimately no one did).  

.....at which it becomes deeply suspicious that he changed Tywin, a scary, powerful, distant father, to really deep down care about his children, even *personally helping Jaime overcome a disability*.  Something David's own father never did.

These are his power fantasies.  

Though it's more obvious when he invents stuff for Tyrion, who he identifies with most.

I've said all this before, but with Qarth, specifically all the ranting about being a self-made man that ultimately was the thing that broke Lord Varys's faith in the show (TV-Xaro rants about being a self-made wealthy man only for them to realize his vault is empty and his wealth is a bluff).  

....consider JUST HOW MUCH of the Wall Street world that David Benioff was exposed to via his father, was based on bluffs about wealth. Acting like you're successful was more important than actually being successful. The New Gilded Age. Donald Trump acting like he's a millionaire when he's actually bankrupt all the time and spending money he doesn't have.

How much of that David internalized.  Maybe he resented some of it, but it's that twisted thing that he resents that world even as he embraces it - he wishes he was better at it, manipulating people like his father.

And consider just how much David Benioff has freely admitted, on video - most recently at Austin Film Fest but in clips we've had for years - "I bluffed my way into this job by acting really confident so GRRM and HBO assumed I knew what I was doing".  

What a sick joke that he actually wrote that in, as the central part of TV-Qarth: someone ranting about how they're a rich, self-made man but it's all a bluff.

How much in Season 1 did we all believe the propaganda that David Benioff was a lowly writer plucked from obscurity based on talent?  He wasn't "obscure", his father was a Goldman Sachs CEO, and he used his father's business connections to grease the wheels of his book career and later get a foot in the door of the movie industry.  He's not "a self made man".  Well, in the sense that he doesn't have a shred of experience - he's self-made in the sense that Donald Trump Junior is: all that background of wealth, but he's an "outsider to the industry"......not in the sense of being self-made, but in the sense of "I have zero training and I got here through nepotism and privilege".  

 

[Lord Varys]

I think you might be right there - both about the dyslexia plot line as well as about the general positive depiction of Tywin, which really has nothing to do with George's character.

Fakers and imposters certainly could be used again and again in GoT because Benioff can relate to that ... or because he likes to view his father as such a person, too. It might help to view him as a man who pretends even if he is actually the opposite. But then - that's perhaps too much speculation and kitchen sink psychology.

As for George's take on the kind of man Tywin actually is, one can be gain it to a pretty high degree by the proto-Tywin we meet in The Armageddon Rag - a domineering, horrible father who is a coward and shithead beneath the powerful persona he projects to the outside world. We have to wait and see how much of a windbag Tywin was, in the end, but the whole Shae thing already points us in a certain direction...

I'm not sure where this character type entered George's work. Tywin isn't the kind of father George had, but it might be that he is indeed based - like I assume The Armageddon Rag proto-Tywin is - on friends and acquaintances George made in his College days.

4 hours ago, SeanF said:

My emotional distance came very late.  It's because of what @Le Cygnecalls the sunk cost fallacy.  I so wanted a resolution (after waiting years for TWOW, and originally, my delight at seeing the books brought to screen) that I keep hoping it would end well, and I kept constructing scenarios in my mind to cover the plot holes.  But, even at the time, I was not impressed by the Qarth plot.  The House of the Undying aside, it's not that exciting a part of Dany's story.  Either, they should have started on Astapor, or else, used her sparingly in the season.

A faithful adaptation of the Qarth plot could have worked easily enough. There was no need to not give Dany some time to breathe, and perhaps cover some background details and do some worldbuilding ... and there are some things there like Dany learning about Robert's death, introducing the Summer Islander captain Sam later meets (which could have been done), etc. And then - the House of the Undying is a very pivotal scene which any person trying to do a faithful adaptation of ASoIaF would focus very heavily.

I mean, it is one of the scenes the entire fandom has been discussing again and again and again since ACoK. It is the most crucial scene of the book series so far, I'd say.

But I must say a lot of stuff in season 2 sucked. I think season 3 actually got somewhat better. Season 2 had that ridiculous Cersei-Littlefinger scene. But, honestly, the sequence of events that sucked the most insofar as potential was concerned was the Jon-Qhorin plot. Their attempted escape and the finale is pure gold for anyone bringing this thing to the screen. Ruining that was just shit. And it is not that it would have been difficult to shoot that. Just have Kit and the Qhorin guy walk through a forest and later through a cave and have them talk at camp fires.

[Rose of Red Lake]

On 10/17/2020 at 10:20 AM, Cas Stark said:

I wish he was more focused on finishing his book series than making more HBO shows, but the fact remains that no once forced him to go on 60 Minutes and extol the show as a more faithful adaptation of his story than 97% of other adaptations.  He has always tried to play it cute with his deeply silly Scarlet O'Hara talking point, but that actually only re-enforces how similar the show and the books ended up, because the number of Scarlet's children is an irrelevant detail.

Yeah I just said this in another thread. It’s so pointless about her kids but of course he’s not gonna say “it was basically the same!” I feel like he doesn’t want readers to feel like his story was spoiled by the show when it probably was. He is suspect whenever he talks about “differences.” So Ramsay rapes Sansa...instead he’s gonna have Littlefinger do it! Ha,ha so different, see? And if these differences were so vast why did he care so much about the show getting ahead of the books and describes the show as “passing” him? I really only think it’s just minor character arc differences that he’s leaning into to keep people interested. Last year he said, “I haven’t read the [final-season] scripts and haven’t been able to visit the set because I’ve been working on Winds. I know some of the things. But there’s a lot of minor-character [arcs] they’ll be coming up with on their own. And, of course, they passed me several years ago. There may be important discrepancies.” Nah, I doubt they’re that important. (x)

[SeanF]

10 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Yeah I just said this in another thread. It’s so pointless about her kids but of course he’s not gonna say “it was basically the same!” I feel like he doesn’t want readers to feel like his story was spoiled by the show when it probably was. He is suspect whenever he talks about “differences.” So Ramsay rapes Sansa...instead he’s gonna have Littlefinger do it! Ha,ha so different, see? And if these differences were so vast why did he care so much about the show getting ahead of the books and describes the show as “passing” him? I really only think it’s just minor character arc differences that he’s leaning into to keep people interested. Last year he said, “I haven’t read the [final-season] scripts and haven’t been able to visit the set because I’ve been working on Winds. I know some of the things. But there’s a lot of minor-character [arcs] they’ll be coming up with on their own. And, of course, they passed me several years ago. There may be important discrepancies.” Nah, I doubt they’re that important. (x)

I’d be surprised if we got a Sansa rape scene.

[Rose of Red Lake]

5 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I’d be surprised if we got a Sansa rape scene.

Non consensual touching and kissing is sexual assault. Inform your daughters.

[SeanF]

18 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Non consensual touching and kissing is sexual assault. Inform your daughters.

He’s very creepy, but I think he’d still want to believe she truly loves him.  Though I guess the crunch could come if Sweetrobin is poisoned, and suspicion falls on Sansa.

[Count Balerion]

evil dany is rot.

 

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[Count Balerion]