Who's the stupidest player in the Game of Thrones?

[talvikorppi]

46 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

This is new; I never heard this one before. But no - mainly because of his speech before the Iron Throne and court:

That is the content of the letter.

How is this new?

I've always thought, ever since I first read the first book, AGOT, that Sansa's going to Cersei let her (Cersei) know of the ship Ned had contracted, Cersei seized the ship, searched it, and found proof of Ned's "treason" in Ned's letter to Stannis.

Ned planning to send his daughters back to Winterfell is no treason. Writing to Stannis, informing him he's the One True King (TM) is treason (from Joffrey/Lannister POV.

Now, Sansa is one of my most favourite characters but she made a HUGE mistake in clyping to Cersei.

[Springwatch]

13 minutes ago, frenin said:

I don't know how unlucky she is, I mean, she knows Robert and knows how big and strong he is. 

I doubt that poison would have really prevented Robert from getting the truth anyway.

He was disembowelled! Everyone was pretty startled how bad it was, and how he could be alive.

13 minutes ago, frenin said:

And who does she charm exactly?? The only one i can think of is an overly malleable Lancel. And Pycelle has been a toadie of her House since before she was born.

Sansa saw it - charming everyone she chose. She was charmed early on herself. I think Tyrion mentions her charm somewhere. Varys credits her sex appeal.

Cersei's problem is she can't help being violently insulting at other times, and people remember and get tired of it (e.g. Lancel).

13 minutes ago, frenin said:

The ones who actually got her out alive were Eddard and Petyr, and she certainly did not charm them.

How would you know? Because they tell you so in their thoughts? That's not how charm works.

13 minutes ago, frenin said:

 LF chose to save her life, and her House, in order to get Eddard killed and the war started and Ned chose to spare her children's life.

They also did what Cersei wants.

13 minutes ago, frenin said:

That would have likely ended with King's Landing. She ordered the wildfire casks to be made, but anything but Tyrion's idea would've likely ended up in disaster.

The pyromancers have been making wildifire for many years. They must know some ways of using it.

Casks were put into some of the ships on the Blackwater - that worked.

13 minutes ago, frenin said:

And where is that Network in AFFC??

Qyburn seems to be doing an excellent job as chief spider.

13 minutes ago, frenin said:

It seems to me that our good Varys was overrating Cersei in front of Ned to get him paranoid.

I was thinking of Varys warning Tyrion that keeping Shae out of Cersei's knowledge would be incredibly difficult. I think this was sincere. The Red Keep is full of eyes. A castle has no secrets.

13 minutes ago, frenin said:

I would not call it brilliant but incredibly lucky. But truth be told, most of the most brilliant moves are also the luckiest of them all. So, props to her.

Fair enough.

[Springwatch]

31 minutes ago, talvikorppi said:

How is this new?

I've always thought, ever since I first read the first book, AGOT, that Sansa's going to Cersei let her (Cersei) know of the ship Ned had contracted, Cersei seized the ship, searched it, and found proof of Ned's "treason" in Ned's letter to Stannis.

New to me. I'm saying it's wrong though.

Firstly, you have no reason to believe the letter was on the ship. The letter was given to Fat Tom, who escorted Ned to the throne room and was killed there.

Secondly, Ned condemned himself out of his own mouth, in front of every significant witness.

31 minutes ago, talvikorppi said:

Ned planning to send his daughters back to Winterfell is no treason. Writing to Stannis, informing him he's the One True King (TM) is treason (from Joffrey/Lannister POV.

Agree. The document is just a bonus for Cersei though. Ned's honor won't allow him to conceal his plans.

31 minutes ago, talvikorppi said:

Now, Sansa is one of my most favourite characters but she made a HUGE mistake in clyping to Cersei.

She made a huge mistake. What she didn't do was betray her family, or indeed make any difference to the day's events.

[frenin]

2 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

He was disembowelled! Everyone was pretty startled how bad it was, and how he could be alive.

True and a man of his size could last a bit longer.

 

3 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Sansa saw it - charming everyone she chose. She was charmed early on herself. I think Tyrion mentions her charm somewhere. Varys credits her sex appeal.

Sansa was a very very dumb kid in AGOT and was already predisposed towards Cersei, it's not like she had to do an stunning perfomance.

And being very attractive is not the same of charming everyone. 

 

Quote

The queen seemed amused by that. “Save your pity for yourself, Lord Stark. I want none of it.” “You know what I must do.” “Must?” She put her hand on his good leg, just above the knee. “A true man does what he will, not what he must.” Her fingers brushed lightly against his thigh, the gentlest of promises. “The realm needs a strong Hand. Joff will not come of age for years. No one wants war again, least of all me.” Her hand touched his face, his hair. “If friends can turn to enemies, enemies can become friends. Your wife is a thousand leagues away, and my brother has fled. Be kind to me, Ned. I swear to you, you shall never regret it.” “Did you make the same offer to Jon Arryn?” She slapped him. “I shall wear that as a badge of honor,” Ned said dryly.

Hell of a charm.

 

 

7 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Cersei's problem is she can't help being violently insulting at other times, and people remember and get tired of it (e.g. Lancel).

Is that her problem??  She tries her best with the Tyrells and that doesn't work.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

How would you know? Because they tell you so in their thoughts? That's not how charm works.

We know it from Ned, his thoughts, actions and words. And we know from Petyr, his words and actions.

When has either shown anything remotely close to being charmed by Cersei??

 

 

10 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

They also did what Cersei wants.

No, Ned did what Varys told him to do when he, Varys not Cersei, directly threatened Sansa.

Petyr did what he  wanted to do, It just so happened that it also was a lifesaver to Cersei.

 

12 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

The pyromancers have been making wildifire for many years. They must know some ways of using it.

That's why you're assuming, we don't know that. Besides, it's Cersei making the decisions, not them.

 

 

13 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Casks were put into some of the ships on the Blackwater - that worked.

Tyrion.

 

 

13 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Qyburn seems to be doing an excellent job as chief spider.

You sure?? That's what Cersei believes at some point and in the very same chapter.

 

Quote

“Balon Greyjoy is dead, I had heard,” said Ser Harys Swyft. “Do we know who rules the isles now? Did Lord Balon have a son?” “Leo?” coughed Lord Gyles. “Theo?” “Theon Greyjoy was raised at Winterfell, a ward of Eddard Stark,” Qyburn said. “He is not like to be a friend of ours.” “I had heard he was slain,” said Merryweather. “Was there only one son?” Ser Harys Swyft tugged upon his chin beard. “Brothers. There were brothers. Were there not?” Varys would have known, Cersei thought with irritation. “I do not propose to climb in bed with that sorry pack of squids. Their turn will come, once we have dealt with Stannis. What we require is our own fleet.”

And you believe he's doing an excellent job... Because Cersei seems to think so.

 

 

19 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

I was thinking of Varys warning Tyrion that keeping Shae out of Cersei's knowledge would be incredibly difficult. I think this was sincere. The Red Keep is full of eyes. A castle has no secrets.

That has little to do with a Network of spies, which is what he tells Ned, but that  anyone might spill the beans and Cersei, or anyone for that matter, can hear.

 

 

 

[Springwatch]

11 minutes ago, frenin said:

True and a man of his size could last a bit longer.

Not really, no.

11 minutes ago, frenin said:

Sansa was a very very dumb kid in AGOT and was already predisposed towards Cersei, it's not like she had to do an stunning perfomance.

More assumptions. Why are you so sure that Cersei cannot charm people?

11 minutes ago, frenin said:

And being very attractive is not the same of charming everyone. 

No.

11 minutes ago, frenin said:

Hell of a charm.

She knows how to be charming. But she actually likes being violent.

11 minutes ago, frenin said:

Is that her problem??  She tries her best with the Tyrells and that doesn't work.

Lots of passive aggression between her and the Tyrells. Both sides aware of it.

11 minutes ago, frenin said:

We know it from Ned, his thoughts, actions and words. And we know from Petyr, his words and actions.When has either shown anything remotely close to being charmed by Cersei??No, Ned did what Varys told him to do when he, Varys not Cersei, directly threatened Sansa.Petyr did what he  wanted to do, It just so happened that it also was a lifesaver to Cersei.

Cersei has star quality when she chooses. Even Tyrion thinks she looks like a goddess. So. Apparently most people have subconscious bias towards beauty, and many of us are moved by charm. It's not usually a conscious thing.

I grant you Ned and LF are both pretty exceptional in their different ways.

11 minutes ago, frenin said:

That's why you're assuming, we don't know that. Besides, it's Cersei making the decisions, not them.

Of course pyromancers are experts in wildfire. And if it wasn't a weapon, Cersei wouldn't have been interested.

The wonder is that gifted amateur Tyrion developed a new wildfire weapon that worked perfectly first time. Or did he? Why did the pyromancers make fruits for Aerys?

11 minutes ago, frenin said:

Tyrion.

You're being generous to Tyrion, and ungenerous to Cersei and the pyromancers.

11 minutes ago, frenin said:

You sure?? That's what Cersei believes at some point and in the very same chapter.

Varys had been in the job for years. Qyburn just arrived - and yes, iirc, he's good. He reported on Spotted Sylva's marriage as possibly suspicious for example, and put it in context with other things happening to Arianne's friends and cousins. Good work.

11 minutes ago, frenin said:

And you believe he's doing an excellent job... Because Cersei seems to think so.

And you think because Cersei hired him, he must be rubbish.

11 minutes ago, frenin said:

That has little to do with a Network of spies, which is what he tells Ned, but that  anyone might spill the beans and Cersei, or anyone for that matter, can hear.

Everyone knows that Cersei has spies in her employ. Not secret agents, but ordinary castle people like maids and kitchen staff and soldiers who report back on whatever interests her. Not just Varys saying so, but LF and Tyrion, maybe others.

[Pontius Pilate]

Who's the stupidest player in the Game of Thrones?  Easy, Sansa. 

[King17]

In the current time probably Need stark 

In the past Aegor rivers he picked the losing side every single time.

[frenin]

2 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Not really, no.

Then, I'm convinced.

 

3 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

More assumptions. Why are you so sure that Cersei cannot charm people?

She sure as hell can, your examples are bad tho.

 

4 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

She knows how to be charming. But she actually likes being violent.

She tries to be charming with Ned, It backfires, or isn't that clear from the text??

 

 

5 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Lots of passive aggression between her and the Tyrells. Both sides aware of it.

Not from the get go, while she was under Tywin's belt, they still distrusted her.

 

 

5 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Cersei has star quality when she chooses. Even Tyrion thinks she looks like a goddess.

What has that to do with anything??

 

6 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

So. Apparently most people have subconscious bias towards beauty, and many of us are moved by charm. It's not usually a conscious thing.

Sure, that's not to say that most people follow her blindly. And being charming and being beatiful aren't the same thing, even if it's easier to be the first if you're the second.

 

 

 

8 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Of course pyromancers are experts in wildfire. And if it wasn't a weapon, Cersei wouldn't have been interested.

On wildfire?? Yes, in its uses in Warfare?? I'm not so sure. 

Cersei went to it because it was destructive, she did not know how to properly use it.

 

 

9 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

The wonder is that gifted amateur Tyrion developed a new wildfire weapon that worked perfectly first time. Or did he? Why did the pyromancers make fruits for Aerys?

Tyrion did not develop a new wildfire weapon. 

 

 

9 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

You're being generous to Tyrion, and ungenerous to Cersei and the pyromancers.

I mean, isn't his idea??  Did Cersei knew how to use it??

When has Cersei shown being capable at Warfare??

 

11 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Varys had been in the job for years. Qyburn just arrived - and yes, iirc, he's good. He reported on Spotted Sylva's marriage as possibly suspicious for example, and put it in context with other things happening to Arianne's friends and cousins. Good work.

Not knowing who the brothers of one of Westeros's Great Lords are is not good.

And the latter is Pycelle the one that does it.

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

And you think because Cersei hired him, he must be rubbish

Did not say so.  Excellent, however,  is a overstatement.

 

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

Everyone knows that Cersei has spies in her employ. Not secret agents, but ordinary castle people like maids and kitchen staff and soldiers who report back on whatever interests her. Not just Varys saying so, but LF and Tyrion, maybe others.

She must have the very worst then. Since she's most of the time clueless.

[Arthur Peres]

My vote goes to Balon.

His objectives and his actions do not match at all, his logic is non existential. He is refered as mad, blind, deaf, idiot, bad lord, bad king, mocked by his enemies and vassals, he is killed by the men he exiled, leaving a sucession mess because he failed at the task of pointing a heir.

He fails at politics, he fails at military, he fails as a father, brother, lord and king. Cersei at the very least is cunning enough to keep her head above water.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Cersei at the very least is cunning enough to keep her head above water.

Yes I think Cersie does achieve better results over all. Balon ended up dead with his legacy being absolute shit. Cersei only ended up parade like a common prostitute with her legacy absolute shit. Still not much of an improvement.

[Arthur Peres]

17 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Yes I think Cersie does achieve better results over all. Balon ended up dead with his legacy being absolute shit. Cersei only ended up parade like a common prostitute with her legacy absolute shit. Still not much of an improvement.

At the very least Cersei does have some sense in her actions, yes she screws and it's wrong about almost everything, But Balon makes Aerys looks rational.

What do we know about Balon?

During Robert's Rebellion he and his brothers pressured his Lord father to take side in the conflict. Once the rebels have won the Trident, Quellon declares for Robert and attacks the Shield islands and gets killed... Great idea Balon...

Balon ignores all the progress his father did and reversed most of his reforms.

Not content, Balon then decides to rebel against Robert for pride, get his two older sons killed, Theon became a hostage and Aeron a prisoner in the Rock. His forces were pushed from Seagard, beaten at the sea and his castle was taken, great. So far no sucess at all.

Balon's wife becomes miserable and mad, Balon tries to ignore every single law, and push Asha as his heir despite the fact that no one would respect that decision as we saw, somehow he blames Theon that was six, for his failures at his rebellion and prays for the only clear heir and chance of stability to die.

The during the books he gets a new chance, his heir is back, he gets a proposition for alliance, and decides to throw everything away, name himself king, but attacks the only person that is willing to reconize his title, he then asks the person that holds formal claim to his alligiance to reconize his independence while trying to snatch another parts of their realm.,.

Everything he does goes wrong, and there is no real reason for any of his actions. There is not a single nice comment about the man.

 

 

[Sigella]

20 hours ago, talvikorppi said:

Well, she beat Ned, there's that... :-D

But how easy was it to beat someone who was NOT playing the game of thrones, like honourable dead Ned?

That Cersei's half-arsed scheme of killing Robert (on a hunting trip by having Lancel get him even more drunk than usual in the hope of a hunting accident) actually worked out just in time it needed to was pure luck... Or was it?

Ned gave his ultimatum to Cersei while Robert was away hunting. Lo and behold! Soon after, the king had a hunting accident! Official story: the king was drunk, tragic accident. Honourable witness Ser Barristan Selmy the befuddled confirms. - So, I'm wondering if Cersei sent messages, took a more active stance than merely wishing drunkeness while hunting would kill her husband?

We'll never know. It's probably just a writer's convenience by GRRM to advance the story he wants to tell, i.e. what happens after King Robert dies - the point of the first book. Or more precisely, what happens after the father figure (Ned) dies and the children (the Stark kids) are scattered and having to fend for themselves before they are ready.

So the minutiae of Cersei killing of Robert don't really matter.

But as to the game of thrones, Cersei sure beat the non-player Ned.

 

Ned could have beaten Cersei if he had just told Robert what was up before he died.

[Rose of Red Lake]

23 hours ago, TedBear said:

he'll probably steal a dragon from her and she certainly won't see it as attractive,

Steal a dragon never made sense to me. He might kill one - but if he rode one , she'd instantly find that attractive.  

Ned made one slip, out of compassion for Cersei"s children. I guess its only dumb if the criteria for success is to be as ruthless as you can. But we know that choice can also be dumb.

[SeanF]

None of the main characters really plays at the top of their game.  They all make big mistakes.

But, being an expert player of the Game of Thrones is not really a good thing.

[Lord Lannister]

I think Aerys II Targaryen deserves a mention. He managed to piss of just about everyone, united allies that never would've otherwise had anything to do with one another and even his loyalists were lukewarm at best acting only under threat of hostages in the case of Dorne or ducking out at the first opportunity like the Tyrells. 

[TedBear]

2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Steal a dragon never made sense to me. He might kill one - but if he rode one , she'd instantly find that attractive

There are many people who hate Euron around her, Victarion and Moqorro are sure to talk as much as they can, Moqorro has his visions that he would probably link this to Euron immediately after he gets a dragon, Victarion knows horrible things about Euron that Dany will take in consideration, even though she doesn't trust Victarion either, she likes dangerous men but in both cases she despises the bad things they do.

In addition are not something like getting a dragon by taming him like she did with Drogon (or rather, trying to do) or like the targaryens did, it is controlling her dragon, that she has raised since they hatching, and loves like if he were her son, using a magic horn to force him, coming from someone who is not from your family, I think she will want this dragon back immediately, she would probably also want this horn and hide it or try to destroy it so that nobody tries to do the same, but just waiting to know what will happen.

2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Ned made one slip, out of compassion for Cersei"s children. I guess its only dumb if the criteria for success is to be as ruthless as you can. But we know that choice can also be dumb.

although you know that he is doing something "wrong", it's hard to blame him for his stupidity here, it would be very cruel if he were to speak to Robert first. I would be silent, just do my job as the king's hand and forget the bastards.

[Lord Lannister]

4 hours ago, Sigella said:

Ned could have beaten Cersei if he had just told Robert what was up before he died.

Ned had so many chances to win, but held back. He really beat himself. Cersei's plot as it was.... was really quite random. Goad him into participating in the melee so maybe he gets hurt? Get Robert stupid drunk so maybe he gets hurt hunting? Was she going to have the Hound roll a barrel down some stairs next if that didn't work? She got VERY lucky both with the timing of the hunting injury and that Ned held back.

[TheLastWolf]

Patchface. Moonboy will be his Hand. 

Oh sorry! Was it stupidest? Then no. Patch is Machiavelli. 

[Loose Bolt]

6 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

At the very least Cersei does have some sense in her actions, yes she screws and it's wrong about almost everything, But Balon makes Aerys looks rational.

What do we know about Balon?

During Robert's Rebellion he and his brothers pressured his Lord father to take side in the conflict. Once the rebels have won the Trident, Quellon declares for Robert and attacks the Shield islands and gets killed... Great idea Balon...

Balon ignores all the progress his father did and reversed most of his reforms.

Not content, Balon then decides to rebel against Robert for pride, get his two older sons killed, Theon became a hostage and Aeron a prisoner in the Rock. His forces were pushed from Seagard, beaten at the sea and his castle was taken, great. So far no sucess at all.

Balon's wife becomes miserable and mad, Balon tries to ignore every single law, and push Asha as his heir despite the fact that no one would respect that decision as we saw, somehow he blames Theon that was six, for his failures at his rebellion and prays for the only clear heir and chance of stability to die.

The during the books he gets a new chance, his heir is back, he gets a proposition for alliance, and decides to throw everything away, name himself king, but attacks the only person that is willing to reconize his title, he then asks the person that holds formal claim to his alligiance to reconize his independence while trying to snatch another parts of their realm.,.

Everything he does goes wrong, and there is no real reason for any of his actions. There is not a single nice comment about the man.

 

 

He also invades huge swamp and another very poor areas when Tywin has taken about 40 k men to Riverlands and so left major city Lannisport and very rich Westerlands almost without any defenders. Or raiding Westerlands should have been much more profitable investment than invading much poorer North.

[talvikorppi]

19 hours ago, Springwatch said:

19 hours ago, Springwatch said:

New to me. I'm saying it's wrong though.

Firstly, you have no reason to believe the letter was on the ship. The letter was given to Fat Tom, who escorted Ned to the throne room and was killed there.

Secondly, Ned condemned himself out of his own mouth, in front of every significant witness.

Agree. The document is just a bonus for Cersei though. Ned's honor won't allow him to conceal his plans.

She made a huge mistake. What she didn't do was betray her family, or indeed make any difference to the day's events.

 

She made a huge mistake. What she didn't do was betray her family, or indeed make any difference to the day's events.

Uuugh, sorry about the double quoting boxes, I don't know how to undo a mistake I made earlier (hey, quite a GRRM theme!)

Anyway, Sansa didn't knowingly betray her family, but we have to face the truth: her going to Cersei and revealing the plan to take ship allowed Cersei to seize the ship and find the letter, Ned's letter to Stannis, that proved Ned's "treason".

As to who's the worst player of the game of thrones...

Ned didn't even play when he should've.  Cersei got lucky in the first couple of turns, but when she gets her turn at power... Well, it descends into conspiracy and chaos. She's petty, has no sense of the bigger picture, she only sees the immediate court around herself and acts accordingly.

She's not wrong about the Tyrells grasping for power but she makes big mistakes.  Aurane Waters and the fleet. Alienating the Faith, Kevan, even Jaime. She focuses on herself and her idea of the court, ignoring the realm (and reality).