Who's the stupidest player in the Game of Thrones?

[Springwatch]

16 hours ago, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

Ned's guards protect him and his household. she is told what she needs to know but she also knows a lot that is beneficial to Cercie. it should be painfully obvious that they are in a hazardous place when he explicitly tells his children that he is sending them away for their own safety especially after his  men are killed and he, injured. he tells them that. she is told not to let anyone know of their intentions.

Ned and his men were attacked in the streets by Joff's wicked uncle Jaime, who has fled the city. Sansa can very easily see that kind of danger, but not how it applies to her, when she's safe and protected in a castle. Ned made a mistake describing the danger only in terms of street fighting - it makes him sound insincere. Over-protective.

The rest, yes, she felt as wicked as Arya when she disobeyed Ned's direct instruction. 'As wicked as Arya' means you can disobey a direct instruction, but he will still love you and there will be no consequences.

16 hours ago, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

Sansa was doing fine despite Lady's death

Doubtful. The direwolves are far too tame to be naturally wild animals - therefore they are semi-warged. Therefore some part of Varamyr's death experiences applies. Sansa was crying constantly, night after night. Followed by constant battling with Arya (according to Ned) - it's out of character.

[Springwatch]

16 hours ago, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

running off to Cercie was a political maneuver. Her interests coincide with politics. Marrying the Prince is political. Tattling to Cercie on the intentions to send them home via her father, Hand of the King, is political. 

We don't call it political when any modern child wants an exciting place to live, or dreams of a future as an influential celebrity. It's not political, it's normal.

16 hours ago, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

Does not change that the escape Ned planned for his daughters was blown by Sansa.- Cercie may act still but may not have known where they would be or their intended route to leave.

Cersei wouldn't know where they were? How about the Tower of the Hand? Which has been under surveillance since the day they arrived - which means the luggage leaving the front door would definitely be noted. Also the spy network includes the docks - that's how they picked up Cat.

16 hours ago, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

. eh no Sansa may be being hunted but Tyrion is the target.  technically she isn't framed, Tyrion is.

[Cersei] " [...] She helped murder my son. When we find the Imp, we will find the Lady Sansa too. She is not dead... but before I am done with her, I promise you, she will be singing to the Stranger, begging for his kiss."

[Thunder Bunny-3000]

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Ned and his men were attacked in the streets by Joff's wicked uncle Jaime, who has fled the city. Sansa can very easily see that kind of danger, but not how it applies to her, when she's safe and protected in a castle. Ned made a mistake describing the danger only in terms of street fighting - it makes him sound insincere. Over-protective.

The rest, yes, she felt as wicked as Arya when she disobeyed Ned's direct instruction. 'As wicked as Arya' means you can disobey a direct instruction, but he will still love you and there will be no consequences.

Doubtful. The direwolves are far too tame to be naturally wild animals - therefore they are semi-warged. Therefore some part of Varamyr's death experiences applies. Sansa was crying constantly, night after night. Followed by constant battling with Arya (according to Ned) - it's out of character.

well then sansa really is that dim. Arya knows who her fathers men are , i'd expect Sansa would too. knowing that her father was attacked and people that they grew up with have died should be a point to consider. it is not a mistake as I said it should be obvious. but Sansa only has a mind for her fairytales. in the end it still comes down to Sansa's judgement and it was bad. Ned is not at fault in this. as she was aptly warned about danger and their safety. 

ha wicked as Arya means she knows she is being deliberately disobedient. she knows that she should not do what she is doing and still doing it anyway. she never considers the consequences.

 well we know she blames Arya for Lady's death  and that is the source of contention between the two bickering all the time. and she still was doing better than Arya considering she had plenty of other distractions,the biggest being joffery and the tournament. 

[Thunder Bunny-3000]

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

We don't call it political when any modern child wants an exciting place to live, or dreams of a future as an influential celebrity. It's not political, it's normal.

well we aren't discussing modern times. context is the story universe and that world that sets the rules. 

she is a highborn lady in a monarchy society.  Anything she does will be political. her using the Queen is political. she is looking out for herself number one is Sansa - and as for sansa, her being disobedient bynot doing what she is told, is out of character for Sansa. 

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Cersei wouldn't know where they were? How about the Tower of the Hand? Which has been under surveillance since the day they arrived - which means the luggage leaving the front door would definitely be noted. Also the spy network includes the docks - that's how they picked up Cat.

possible but not guaranteed. is everything told to Ned the truth or is some a lie. putting Ned in a state of paranoia is an easy way to gain his trust by giving him nuggets of truth over time. doesn't mean the girls couldn't still escape.  

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

[Cersei] " [...] She helped murder my son. When we find the Imp, we will find the Lady Sansa too. She is not dead... but before I am done with her, I promise you, she will be singing to the Stranger, begging for his kiss."

that isn't framing Sansa. Tyrion's trials was framing Tyrion for the murder of Joffery. Sansa is just blamed because she is married to Tyrion and she is conveniently missing. so Tyrion is Framed. Sansa is blamed. the difference. evidence is produced to incriminate Tyrion which condemns him unfairly. Sansa is just assumed guilty by association.

Funny, Tyrion is completely innocent while Sansa has the means to commit the murder on her head.   

[frenin]

On 10/16/2020 at 5:41 AM, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

Ned's guards protect him and his household. she is told what she needs to know but she also knows a lot that is beneficial to Cercie. it should be painfully obvious that they are in a hazardous place when he explicitly tells his children that he is sending them away for their own safety especially after his  men are killed and he, injured. he tells them that. she is told not to let anyone know of their intentions.

 

 

Ned's guards are still not Ned's daughters and as far Sansa can tell, the only danger is Jaime Lannister and he's gone,  after that she can't sense any danger nor she understans her father, her father does ot bother to explain the situation in detail, expecting of course that Sansa would just obey... And the rest it's not surprisig.

 

 

On 10/16/2020 at 5:41 AM, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

Sansa being more behaved would require less attention as she is not acting out of the ordinary nor is she misbehaving except in the cases that involve  fighting with Arya.  Also Arya is pretty much alone after her friend is dead and wolf forced away whereas Sansa is doing well, has a friend, lovesick with the prince and dazzled by the tournaments etc. Ned pays attention to who needs him most. Sansa was doing fine despite Lady's death. Arya was not. and anyway what you said does not excuse her misguided disobedience.

So you're saying that as long as Sansa feels ok, Ned does not need to bother with fill her in... until it's too late too late, while Arya is informed of the stakes right away.

Children tend to act out, they do not expect the consequences to be as disstrous as they were forSansa.

 

 

On 10/16/2020 at 5:41 AM, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

I made no such claim. only that she is comparable in that her actions were involved political ramifications which in story is called the game of thrones.

 

Besides, who has to be of equal station, for it to count? when was that a requirement?

running off to Cercie was a political maneuver. Her interests coincide with politics. Marrying the Prince is political. Tattling to Cercie on the intentions to send them home via her father, Hand of the King, is political. 

You did make said claims. Her actions having political ramifications doesn't mean that they were made with the intetion to have political ramifications. 

Robert cheating on Cersei with his cousins had political ramifications, very serious at that,that doesn't mean that Robert was thinking on the game of throes while doing it.

Someone who had the same power as Sansa,  you keep comparing her with people with political power and armies to enforce said power just because they just happen to be kids.  

Running off to Cersei was not a  political maneuver.  her interest coincing with politics is just that, coincidence.  The rest no, it is't. Even then, acting out of love or lust it's not political.

 

 

On 10/16/2020 at 5:41 AM, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

Joffrey was her primary motivation not the rest. the rest were the cherry on top.

sansa is described by Cercie as being wet with love for Joffrey.

  she was brought low by her own actions.

No it wasn't, from the very beginning  we're told that Sansa dreams with being on the south.

A doesn't negate B.

She was brought low by her father's actions, by Cersei's actions, Jofrey's, Petyr's yadda yadda yadda, not so much her own's.

 

 

On 10/16/2020 at 5:41 AM, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

Does not change that the escape Ned planned for his daughters was blown by Sansa.- Cercie may act still but may not have known where they would be or their intended route to leave.

 Sansa was always going to be a prisoner after any peace if made to keep Robb at bay. yea, it is because Cercie snatches her up the moment she divulges their escape intent.  it fails  because peace is never made with Robb due to the impulse execution of Lord Eddard Stark by King Joffrey Baratheon. she intended Sansa remain her hostage to ensure the terms were kept. - I don't think we were in disagreement of this.

as for the confession: it was part of the agreement which certainty required Ned's cooperation in order to take the black. the confession did change things. it strengthened Joffery's claim to the throne while incriminating the starks and the rival Baratheons, Lord Stannis and Lord Renly  as the aggressors in the war. Ned was never supposed to die. Joffery did that. they still have Sansa as a valuable asset.

 

•  As others have already explained,  the departure as nothing but a secret and King's Landing was full of spies.
• At no poit, did it strengthened  Joffrey's claim, the confession was made before either Renly ad Stannis claimed nothing, nor it changed a thig for how people felt about the Starks, you know the thing about the acusatio non petita... When Stannis sends his letter no one remembers any confession. Martin has implied that LF egged Joffrey to kill Ned and a mistreated valuable asset is a fragil one, as it  can falter at any moment.

 

 

On 10/16/2020 at 5:41 AM, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

she did play, whether she knew it or not. she tried to influence things to allow her image of reality to continue. like I said before,  it is playing politics as she tried to influence her father by getting the King to make Ned to let her stay but due to irrational fear of a fat man, she goes to Queen Cercie to prevent her leaving the city to stay with Joffery.  

She did not play, neither consciously not inconsciously, that it had political ramifications does't change aynything, more kids don't even understand the concept game of thrones, i find strange that she could have played then.

 

 

On 10/16/2020 at 5:41 AM, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

Lady's serve their households they serve their husbands and depending on their station, they serve other ladies.  birthing heirs and managing household are their primary duties unless they rule in their own right or in the stead of their Lord husbands. For example, Catelyn serves house Tully by marrying Ned in Brandon's stead. she serves house Stark by birthing heirs. she is tasked with educating Robb in preparation for war, and eventually serves him when he becomes the New head of House Stark and later, King. Lady Maege Mormont Serves her house as it's matriarch when Jorah Mormont is in exile and serves House Stark as a Vassal Lady, Dacey Mormont serves King Robb as a bodyguard and her Mother who is head of House Mormont. . Sansa is alive because she is a useful idiot and others take advantage of that and need her alive. Arya has this same experience when her identity is revealed with the brotherhood, she is valuable enough to be worth a ransom.  

you said that Arya was filling more of a serving role. so I gave my argument.  you seem confused.  you said she almost died in a riot. I agree, but no more than the others were at risk including Joffery.  she is protected and kept safe by the lannisters.  it was not Lannister men that assaulted the royal procession. 

as for being beaten its isn't the same as facing death.  but tit for tat, Arya gets beaten as well. 

eh no Sansa may be being hunted but Tyrion is the target.  technically she isn't framed, Tyrion is. 

every aspect of her standard of Living in KL is better than what Arya experiences. but that isn't the point. Arya has different challenges sure but she overcomes those, Sansa doesn't she is passed around  after being knocked down a peg or two.  Sansa was never in danger of death on a basis like that of Arya due to who Sansa is in the realm  of politics, which is, a valuable asset to control.

her escape was planned by others and her treatment was done by others, Sansa does very little on her own. but this isn't the oppression Olympics. the topic of the post was who was the worst player in the game of thrones. I consider it to be Sansa Stark as she did play and was terrible at it. and the tangential argument has been devolved to who is worse, Arya or Sansa. my point there is that Arya is more adaptable than Sansa was and would likely survive Kingslanding if the roles were reversed. Sansa being a pretty docile dimwit would likely be raped on the spot on the road without sufficient protection yet Arya's unkempt look gives her a leg up in that matter to play the boy role to escape. but neither serve to answer the question who is the stupidest player in the game of thrones. 

 

1. Lady's of Sansa station do not serve,  serving in a household is not serving, Lady's order the household and how they obey ther husbands, that is not serving, you're changing the meaning for it to fit your argument. By your argument, everyone serves, so ofc a Prince would be just as fit to be a kitchen's boy.
2. Your argument is that lady's serve... because they have an assigned role, which is absurd, everyone has a role.
3. This is not a competition, nor did i say that Arya has it easy, i said that Arya is more fit to her path than Sansa would be and that she would not fare just as well as Sansa as she lacks many of Sansa's skills to go aroud kin's landing.
4. Being beaten daily what's to you exactly??
5. She is being hunted as Tyrion's accomplice.

 

 

On 10/14/2020 at 2:55 PM, Springwatch said:

As a warm welcome to Robert's rebellion?

All I remember is the pyromancers lighting wildfire lamps to impress Tyrion, but he noticed/knew they were put out double quick.

No.

 

Quote

The False Spring of 281 AC lasted less than two turns. As the year drew to a close, winter returned to Westeros with a vengeance. On the last day of the year, snow began to fall upon King’s Landing, and a crust of ice formed atop the Blackwater Rush. The snowfall continued off and on for the best part of a fortnight, by which time the Blackwater was hard frozen, and icicles draped the roofs and gutters of every tower in the city.

As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon’s turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however.

 I mean it's fire, it has the same attributes and uses fire has, but in larger scale.

 

On 10/14/2020 at 2:55 PM, Springwatch said:

They are related. But yes, pyromancers and soldiers would work together.

How are they related??

And who say that they would work together?? Or that said soldiers would know how to use it??

 

 

On 10/14/2020 at 2:55 PM, Springwatch said:

The False Spring of 281 AC lasted less than two turns. As the year drew to a close, winter returned to Westeros with a vengeance. On the last day of the year, snow began to fall upon King’s Landing, and a crust of ice formed atop the Blackwater Rush. The snowfall continued off and on for the best part of a fortnight, by which time the Blackwater was hard frozen, and icicles draped the roofs and gutters of every tower in the city.

As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon’s turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however.

Fair enough.

 

On 10/14/2020 at 2:55 PM, Springwatch said:

• LF points out a solider watching the Tower of the Hand, and identifies him as Cersei's spy.
• Tyrion knows that Cersei hired all Sansa's maids, to spy on her.
• LF hid Cat in a brothel - an extreme measure, so that she would not be tracked down. iirc, he was not hiding her from Varys, whose own spies spotted her in the first place. So she was being hidden from Cersei.
• Tyrion wants to bring Shae into the Red Keep; he suggests the kitchens. Varys warns against this idea, saying that there are spies in the kitchens. He says hiding Shae from Cersei would be very difficult. (iirc)

ETA

• Also - Tyrion pretending to be with Alayaya, but actually slipping through a hidden passage in a wardrobe, to a stables, then riding over to Shae's manse, in disguise - that is extreme if Cersei had no spies. How much time did Tyrion actually get with Shae, after all that?

It all comes to... Do you believe people who are going out of their way to make Ned paranoid or not?? Those informants are suddenly gone i AFFC, nor Cersei mentions them again. So...

Littlefinger did not know who spotted her first, she was hiding her in general.  Tyrion is acting that way because he's told to act that way. Truth is, said spies never are mentioed by the real spy master, something does ot add up.

[Thunder Bunny-3000]

5 hours ago, frenin said:

Ned's guards are still not Ned's daughters and as far Sansa can tell, the only danger is Jaime Lannister and he's gone,  after that she can't sense any danger nor she understans her father, her father does ot bother to explain the situation in detail, expecting of course that Sansa would just obey... And the rest it's not surprisig.

the mental gymnastics you are going through to justify her willful ignorance is ridiculous. and yes the expectation is obedience. Sansa failed. she is guilty of disobedience hence she is has  to share responsibility for the outcome.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

So you're saying that as long as Sansa feels ok, Ned does not need to bother with fill her in... until it's too late too late, while Arya is informed of the stakes right away.

Children tend to act out, they do not expect the consequences to be as disstrous as they were forSansa.

No, NOT that sansa feels ok. she isn't really acting out except in the bickering with Arya. she doesn't go missing. running off is an Arya thing, dangerous and against Ned's wishes. the talk with Arya is to cool the brewing anger between the two.  they are both told pretty clearly what THEY need to not do. 

5 hours ago, frenin said:

You did make said claims. Her actions having political ramifications doesn't mean that they were made with the intetion to have political ramifications. 

Robert cheating on Cersei with his cousins had political ramifications, very serious at that,that doesn't mean that Robert was thinking on the game of throes while doing it.

Someone who had the same power as Sansa,  you keep comparing her with people with political power and armies to enforce said power just because they just happen to be kids.  

Running off to Cersei was not a  political maneuver.  her interest coincing with politics is just that, coincidence.  The rest no, it is't. Even then, acting out of love or lust it's not political.

no. 

you said that: "she's comparable with actual people with power, with armies to enforce them, with the ability to dictate laws or demand the head of great lords and be obliged." 

and I also never said that Sansa intended a political fiasco to ensue only that her actions contributed. her actions do have political ramifications. anything she does is going to be political in some way., no different than Arya thwacking the prince. that is political. thinking you are going to change Ned's mind by getting the Queen involved is political. 

you made my point. Sansa whether she knew it or not was a player in the game of thrones. one does not have to be actively be playing to be a part.  

Robert is King it isn't cheating. however Cercei screwing Jaimie before every sexual encounter with Robert is treason. which is the greater crime? Cercies treason threw the entire realm into chaos. 

it doesn't matter if people have more power than Sansa that does not mean Sansa didn't contribute. 

acting out of love or lust is political because it has consequence. Cercie cucked the king and now with Robert dead the realm is in choas. her love and her lust was Treason. treason is political. running to Cercie when told not to tell anyone of their intentions is political, why because it effected things and Sansa becomes a prisoner directly because of this. her motivations to be Joffery's Queen is political.  see Robb, Catelyn and Karstark even Jaimie all do things out of love or lust which change the political landscape because of it.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

No it wasn't, from the very beginning  we're told that Sansa dreams with being on the south.

A doesn't negate B.

She was brought low by her father's actions, by Cersei's actions, Jofrey's, Petyr's yadda yadda yadda, not so much her own's.

so what, and Arya thinks sailing on a ship would be an adventure.

Sansa's actions made her into Cercie's first captive. that is all on her own unless you  are thinking that she was forced to Run to Cercie against her own will and blurt out secrets and the get locked in Maegors holdfast.  well we know that isn't the case. she snuck off and she talked to the queen and she was locked away.- her fault entirely.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

• As others have already explained,  the departure as nothing but a secret and King's Landing was full of spies.
• At no poit, did it strengthened  Joffrey's claim, the confession was made before either Renly ad Stannis claimed nothing, nor it changed a thig for how people felt about the Starks, you know the thing about the acusatio non petita... When Stannis sends his letter no one remembers any confession. Martin has implied that LF egged Joffrey to kill Ned and a mistreated valuable asset is a fragil one, as it  can falter at any moment.

the departure may not have been a secret. it's mission was. 

it did. I already stated that it secured Joffrey's legitimacy on the throne with the self incriminating confession. it declares that Joffery is a trueborn Baratheon.- this effects Robb Stark later as he see's Joffery as a legitimate King, Renly an usurper and Stannis though silent also one. 

We found this on the captain of your household guard, Sansa. It is a letter to my late husband’s brother Stannis, inviting him to take the crown.”- GOT

 the letter and the intent is enough to make Stannis the enemy just because declarations are not made right away does not men they weren't her enemies. Renly fled. as a royal counciller he shouold be there pledging fealty so he is already an enemy.

as for Ned. he had a good reputation and his execution was unjustified as he was promised to nights watch. 

i notice some people  disregard Martin's word when it fails to strengthen their argument and use it when it suits them. and yea we are not in dispute of this.-"Martin has implied that LF egged Joffrey to kill Ned and a mistreated valuable asset is a fragil one, as it  can falter at any moment."

5 hours ago, frenin said:

She did not play, neither consciously not inconsciously, that it had political ramifications does't change aynything, more kids don't even understand the concept game of thrones, i find strange that she could have played then.

it does. Ned was trying to leave several times no wanting anything to do with KL but circumstances kept him there. does not matter if kids understand or not. Arya assaulted the prince but as they are children it is dismissed. everyone in hierarchy in Westeros has a role and their function positive or negative intentional or unintentional is  political.
 

5 hours ago, frenin said:

• Lady's of Sansa station do not serve,  serving in a household is not serving, Lady's order the household and how they obey ther husbands, that is not serving, you're changing the meaning for it to fit your argument. By your argument, everyone serves, so ofc a Prince would be just as fit to be a kitchen's boy.
• Your argument is that lady's serve... because they have an assigned role, which is absurd, everyone has a role.
• This is not a competition, nor did i say that Arya has it easy, i said that Arya is more fit to her path than Sansa would be and that she would not fare just as well as Sansa as she lacks many of Sansa's skills to go aroud kin's landing.
• Being beaten daily what's to you exactly??
• She is being hunted as Tyrion's accomplice.

no. you said Arya was only in a serving position and I stated that maybe that is what Arya needs to become a good lady. that is it.

in regards to noble women in general yes they serve. they have little agency so what they are told to do by their lords is what gets to happen. Noblewomen birthing heirs is serving the household otherwise she is a shit wife. sealing alliances through marriage that is serving their households too. managing the castle is in service to it's lord.

you know peasants serve as well. they have the obvious roles in harvesting food, building things and being levies for armies by serving their direct overlord.

squires serve knights and Lords until they become knights themselves.

Queens serve the realm by producing trueborn princes and ensuring the continuing of the Dynasty

the Nights watch serves to protect the relam from ancient evils and wildlings

my point is that everyone has a role and it isn't obsurd. 

Sansa's station was that of a consort. marriage and breeding his her primary function. - she knows this by the way. Arya is a Lady whether she wills it or not, same as Sansa. 

and on the sansa arya path swap I disagree. Arya would survive both paths just fine.

getting beat is abuse, not torture. Theon suffered torture. 

yea but she has yet to be framed for it like Tyrion. 

 

[Springwatch]

16 hours ago, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

possible but not guaranteed. is everything told to Ned the truth or is some a lie. putting Ned in a state of paranoia is an easy way to gain his trust by giving him nuggets of truth over time.

 

5 hours ago, frenin said:

It all comes to... Do you believe people who are going out of their way to make Ned paranoid or not?? Those informants are suddenly gone i AFFC, nor Cersei mentions them again. So...

Littlefinger did not know who spotted her first, she was hiding her in general.  Tyrion is acting that way because he's told to act that way. Truth is, said spies never are mentioed by the real spy master, something does ot add up.

 

It's not just Ned is it? Why is everyone (LF, Varys, Tyrion) twisting themselves into a pretzel over the 'pretense' that Cersei has spies? It's a very unnecessary, convoluted, gas-lighting conspiracy effort. Too much work. It's actually much easier to believe that Cersei does, in fact have spies. She's nicely paranoid, has plenty of money to pay, we've seen her recruiting (Kettleblacks), she loves the results (e.g. her glee at finding Alayaya). She's not the only aristo running spies - the Freys had agents spying and bribing and seducing Manderley's household.

I've thought of another one: the boy in the stables, Arya's first kill. He said he was going to sell her to the queen. That's Cersei, directly, not a soldier or a spider which would be more natural, but the queen herself. So either the boy was already on Cersei's books, or everyone knew the queen pays for anti-Stark service.

And what about Varys? I have no doubt he picked up Cat. The sailors reported her arrival to his agents - his network is the biggest, the most comprehensive.

So when did Varys choose sides? We know he never chose Ned's side, because he withheld information. Would he also withhold information from Cersei? If Cersei won, she would punish Varys for failing to track an easy mark like Ned and his people. She would be suspicious. But not helping Ned means that Cersei winning becomes more likely.

So I have to conclude that Varys was on Cersei's side long before she spoke to Sansa. At the latest, during that last night, when Renly and LF both tried to talk Ned round, and both failed, and both abandoned him. Varys cannot afford to choose the losing side.

[dsjj251]

On 10/9/2020 at 1:09 AM, Arthur Peres said:

Not really fair, what killed Renly wasn't a mistake in the game but magic/plot device. He is not as good as some people make him to be, but he was not even close to worst, if Ned had listened to him he would be alive.

If Ned had listed to Renly , they both would have died. Little Finger was not their ally. 

 

 

On 10/9/2020 at 2:16 PM, broken one said:

renly was slain with magic, it was impossible to foresee or counteract such assault

the conversation they had in the red keep, when robert was dying, shows renly was much more aware of the seriousness of the situation and rules of the game

Renly choose to fight his brother in the Stormlands instead of dispatching one of his lords. He could have chose the more strategic goal of taking Casterly Rock or King's Landing. 

[broken one]

2 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

If Ned had listed to Renly , they both would have died. Little Finger was not their ally. 

 

 

Renly choose to fight his brother in the Stormlands instead of dispatching one of his lords. He could have chose the more strategic goal of taking Casterly Rock or King's Landing. 

if he left for KL he'd been killed anyway, you think stannis would have let him go? march to casterly rock from stromlands does not seem good idea from logistical POV

[dsjj251]

2 minutes ago, broken one said:

if he left for KL he'd been killed anyway, you think stannis would have let him go? march to casterly rock from stromlands does not seem good idea from logistical POV

Renly had 100,000+ men. Stannis had 5,000

 

Stannis didnt have to men to stop Renly from killing him, let alone stopping him from marching where ever he wanted. 

Also, Renly was encamped at Bitterbridge in the Reach, he never had to confront Stannis, He choose to , which is why he was stupid. 

fighting Stannis gains him nothing at all. Taking the Westerlands cuts off Tywin from his supply lines.  and traps him in the East  or possibly caught between him and Robb.  Or he can take Kings Landing and end it all. 

[broken one]

4 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

Renly had 100,000+ men. Stannis had 5,000

 

Stannis didnt have to men to stop Renly from killing him, let alone stopping him from marching where ever he wanted. 

Also, Renly was encamped at Bitterbridge in the Reach, he never had to confront Stannis, He choose to , which is why he was stupid. 

fighting Stannis gains him nothing at all. Taking the Westerlands cuts off Tywin from his supply lines.  and traps him in the East  or possibly caught between him and Robb.  Or he can take Kings Landing and end it all. 

Tarly advised him to deal with Stannis, not to leave him behing his back, it was sensible advice imo. He'd do it on his way to KL.

 

[dsjj251]

Just now, broken one said:

Tarly advised him to deal with Stannis, not to leave him behing his back, it was sensible advice imo. He'd do it on his way to KL.

 

Again, he could have sent Tarly to deal with him or any number of Lords.  It made no sense to deal with Stannis himself. 

[broken one]

4 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

Again, he could have sent Tarly to deal with him or any number of Lords.  It made no sense to deal with Stannis himself. 

and again, the shadow would reach renly, not tarly. it would had changed nothing.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

10 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

Again, he could have sent Tarly to deal with him or any number of Lords.  It made no sense to deal with Stannis himself. 

Renly wasted precious time, that's true, but he could AFFORD to do that. His army was basically a guaranteed victory, and Tywin and Robb were dealing with each other. He wanted to smirk in Stannis's face, sure that was petty, but he couldn't reasonably expect to be killed by a shadow baby.. Perhaps it would've been smarter to move faster and more effectively, but nothing he did was particularly stupid.

There's also something to be said to keeping your men entertained, and showing off in terms of wealth and generosity. A slowly advancing threat can also be more intimidating than a fast moving army. He wasn't going for the element of surprise, he was going for the element of unsettlement. He was sending the message that he was already savoring the victory that he already had in his pocket. He was eating his peach and enjoying it too.

[dsjj251]

29 minutes ago, broken one said:

and again, the shadow would reach renly, not tarly. it would had changed nothing.

You are assuming the shadow son thing still happens. 

[dsjj251]

14 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

Renly wasted precious time, that's true, but he could AFFORD to do that. His army was basically a guaranteed victory, and Tywin and Robb were dealing with each other. He wanted to smirk in Stannis's face, sure that was petty, but he couldn't reasonably expect to be killed by a shadow baby.. Perhaps it would've been smarter to move faster and more effectively, but nothing he did was particularly stupid.

There's also something to be said to keeping your men entertained, and showing off in terms of wealth and generosity. A slowly advancing threat can also be more intimidating than a fast moving army. He wasn't going for the element of surprise, he was going for the element of unsettlement. He was sending the message that he was already savoring the victory that he already had in his pocket. He was eating his peach and enjoying it too.

Renly was fighting for a throne he didnt sit on, for a Kingdom that had already fragmented into 5 parts. Crownlands+Westerlands, Stormlands+Reach, Dorne, Dragonstone, and North+ The Trident.

 

Wasting time absolutely did cost him and if he had taken the throne, his kingdom might not be as fragmented. 

[broken one]

4 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

You are assuming the shadow son thing still happens. 

 Yes, I assume their meeting was unevitable, they were brothers after all and both wanted the other one to subdue, which would make things easier for both (renly too).

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

28 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

Renly was fighting for a throne he didnt sit on, for a Kingdom that had already fragmented into 5 parts. Crownlands+Westerlands, Stormlands+Reach, Dorne, Dragonstone, and North+ The Trident.

 

Wasting time absolutely did cost him and if he had taken the throne, his kingdom might not be as fragmented. 

It did cost him, but he had no reason to expect that it would. If you would have a basket full of candy, and the only people around are bound hand to feet, would you stuff all your candy in your mouth at once, because you were afraid that someone would steal it? Renly had such an advantage, that it was virtually impossible for him to lose. Yes in hindsight it would've been much smarter to move faster, but he had no possible way to expect being killed by a shadow demon.

There is no indication that he didn't have a plan, or that his plan was stupid. He was making use of Tywin and Robb wearing each other out while he was taking care of Stannis. He wasn't wasting men on Tywin, because Robb was winning at the time, so he probably expected Robb to defeat Tywin (which was a reasonable expectation) thinning out Robb's army in the process. Even if Tywin won the same would be true for Tywin's army. Whichever was the case, he had time to deal with Stannis while those two were squabbling. That's smart, not stupid. He could've rushed more to get to KL sooner, but he would've had to deal with Stannis on the way anyway, and then.. shadowbaby. 

You seem to think that he should've expected it to be dangerous for him to deal or negotiate with Stannis himself, but the ONLY reason that it was dangerous for him, was a shadowbaby, that he couldn't possibly have foreseen. 

Renly probably wasn't the smartest player in the game, and he may have turned out to be a very stupid commander, but we'll never know, because he was killed before he had the chance to do anything stupid. What we do know was that he'd planned a pretty smart scheme, first with trying to set Robert up with Margaery, then marrying her himself, after Ned ruined his initial plan and got Robert killed, and gathering the largest army in the realm. That's all we know. We will never know if he'd make a smart commander, or whether his slow pace would've proved an advantage or not... had there not been a mf shadowbaby.

From any normal perspective, where shadowbabies aren't a thing that exists, it was Stannis who was doing an utterly foolish thing, besieging Storm's End with 5,000 men against 100,000+. Renly could not have possibly known that there could be such a thing as shadowbabies, and it was not like he placed his tent in the middle between the two armies, without any guards, and took a little nap wearing a Pikachu onesie, 5 minutes before the announced battle time.

[Dalinar]

Ned is the unbeatable Nr. 1. The Lionel Messi of the Game. But, if we are pedantic, he did not wanted to play, to beginn with. He went fully unprepared in a game he never wanted to play and died like a fool. 

Nr. 2: Balon Greyjoy. This guy is a dull in every sense of the word. Had he taken Robbs offer thru Theon, they could have beaten the Lannisters and secure Westeros above the Riverlands. 

Nr. 3: Robb. Do I really have to explain it? 

Nr. 4. Lysa Arryn. Cooperating with Littlefinger to kill her own husband led to her death and probably the downfall of her own son...for no other reason than being horny. 

Nr. 5. Renly Baratheon. If he had supported Stanis, they would have destroyed the Lannisters and Stanis would be King. Renly would have been probably his Hand, which was the most he could have ever achieved. 

[Arthur Peres]

3 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

If Ned had listed to Renly , they both would have died. Little Finger was not their ally. 

No they wouldn't. Renly wasn't using gold cloaks but his own, Loras and Neds guards.

“My lord, I have thirty men in my personal guard, and other friends beside, knights and lords. Give me an hour, and I can put a hundred swords in your hand.”