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Alyn Oakenfist

Who's the stupidest player in the Game of Thrones?

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What GRRM said was that Sansa played a role in Ned's downfall, and that it would be unfair to let her completely off the hook for that. But it would be just as unfair to pin all of the blame on Sansa as well, for the same reason. I've noticed that those who dislike Sansa choose to ignore the nuance that George is placing into the situation here. They act like George's comment about Sansa having a role in Ned's downfall is permission to blame Sansa 100% for every bad thing that later happened to the Starks, which is absolutely not what George said at all. He said Sansa played a role, same as Cersie, Littlefinger, and Ned himself. It is rather disengenous to act like Ned's fate is all Sansa's fault, and even more disengenous to pretend that Sansa was a player when she clearly wasn't.

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1 minute ago, Nathan Stark said:

What GRRM said was that Sansa played a role in Ned's downfall, and that it would be unfair to let her completely off the hook for that. But it would be just as unfair to pin all of the blame on Sansa as well, for the same reason. I've noticed that those who dislike Sansa choose to ignore the nuance that George is placing into the situation here. They act like George's comment about Sansa having a role in Ned's downfall is permission to blame Sansa 100% for every bad thing that later happened to the Starks, which is absolutely not what George said at all. He said Sansa played a role, same as Cersie, Littlefinger, and Ned himself. It is rather disengenous to act like Ned's fate is all Sansa's fault, and even more disengenous to pretend that Sansa was a player when she clearly wasn't.

Preach!

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6 minutes ago, talvikorppi said:

Care to elaborate? Because I'm not understanding your point.

Are you saying GRRM lies to his readers?

Yes. Effectively, he does.

I wouldn't have put it as strongly as that - I'd say his interviews are designed to be provocative and entertaining, with pure facts coming a distant third. I think he would never want to put a controversy to bed, as it were. I haven't time to go into it more right now, but I wrote some thoughts earlier in the thread here.

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2 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Yes. Effectively, he does.

I wouldn't have put it as strongly as that - I'd say his interviews are designed to be provocative and entertaining, with pure facts coming a distant third. I think he would never want to put a controversy to bed, as it were. I haven't time to go into it more right now, but I wrote some thoughts earlier in the thread here.

Hmmm... I'm not convinced by you quoting back your own assertions.

GRRM's interviews, his encounters with fans at cons etc. all point to him telling the truth but not the whole truth ("Keep reading" seems to be his favourite way of weaseling out of answers he doesn't want to reveal yet - or he doesn't know the answers to yet.).

Omitting information is not lying.

You call GRRM a liar, I say he's crafty.

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18 minutes ago, talvikorppi said:

Hmmm... I'm not convinced by you quoting back your own assertions.

GRRM's interviews, his encounters with fans at cons etc. all point to him telling the truth but not the whole truth ("Keep reading" seems to be his favourite way of weaseling out of answers he doesn't want to reveal yet - or he doesn't know the answers to yet.).

Omitting information is not lying.

You call GRRM a liar, I say he's crafty.

Crafty will do, but excuse me, suggesting Sansa knew about Stannis is a straight misdirect. Ok, a lie.

GRRM has gone to a lot of work to put roadblocks in every avenue by which Sansa might have contributed to the fall of Ned. Like your letter. I don't why he's done it, but he has. If you think of a new scenario, bring it out, but at this stage I think there is nothing new under the sun.

ETA

It's not my job to convince you. The books will do that, if you let them.

Edited by Springwatch

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On 10/23/2020 at 12:36 AM, R2D said:

Lol you're not addressing anything. You said Renly could have just went to King's Landing and left Stannis to deal with later. I told you why he couldn't. 

I explained why I believe you are wrong. 

You can disagree with me all day, but I absolutely addressed it and spelled out my reasoning why. 

 

On 10/23/2020 at 12:36 AM, R2D said:

Renly did not know that, Cat was open to an alliance with both, and she almost believed Stannis' story by connecting it to Bran.

Renly  had planned to take the crown with out the North and Riverlands, and Catelyn specifically said Robb didnt want the Iron Throne.  This argument is moot. 

 

 

On 10/23/2020 at 12:36 AM, R2D said:

Because your argument is a bad argument. It relies on Renly knowing what the readers know.

 

 

No it doesnt.  I simply argued that fighting Stannis himself is a distraction,  You do not have to know what the reader knows  to understand that. 

On 10/23/2020 at 12:36 AM, R2D said:

A normal assassin cannot kill Renly, it took a magical assassin.

 

 

And I gave you that article and changed the death to a "magical arrow"

 

On 10/23/2020 at 12:36 AM, R2D said:

In order for Renly to "suspend his disbelief" so that he would take Stannis seriously he'd have to be shown evidence magic exists. But he has not.

 

No idea what you are talking about. Im  talking about you suspending disbelief, not Renly. 

On 10/23/2020 at 12:36 AM, R2D said:

According to your logic if Renly took KL and then Stannis still killed him with a shadow baby he would be stupid. For failing to see what no one could predict.

Nope, thats not my logic.  but good try. 

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4 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

I explained why I believe you are wrong. 

You can disagree with me all day, but I absolutely addressed it and spelled out my reasoning why. 

You did not explain anything.You said Renly could take KL and deal with Stannis after. You refuse to address it when I gave the reasons why he shouldn't/couldn't. You're deflecting. You're spinning.

4 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

Renly  had planned to take the crown with out the North and Riverlands, and Catelyn specifically said Robb didnt want the Iron Throne.  This argument is moot. 

Who said Robb wanted the Iron throne. Robb wanted help. Renly treated Robb as a rebel. The North didn't know of the incest yet, so since Renly was not forthcoming, Catelyn could be sent as envoy to Stannis by going to Storm's End.

4 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

No it doesnt.  I simply argued that fighting Stannis himself is a distraction,  You do not have to know what the reader knows  to understand that. 

 

 

And I gave you that article and changed the death to a "magical arrow"

 

 

No idea what you are talking about. Im  talking about you suspending disbelief, not Renly. 

Nope, thats not my logic.  but good try. 

You said that Renly should have known Stannis laid a trap. But I explained that defeating Stannis was an easy way to get some military cred, prevent Stannis from growing stronger, and Renly had no reason to expect a magical assassin. Therefore your reasoning that Renly was dumb because he fell for a trap doesn't hold. You even moved goalposts, saying a hidden assassin could have been able to kill him but later saying a magical assassin could. Sorry, just admit you're wrong on this one ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

Edited by R2D

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5 hours ago, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

So does Arrianne.  Would you consider her dumb too?

I would of course. What has she achieved playing in the game? She thinks of her band of 7 going to rebel as something in a song or tale. Dreamer. As if whatever lord she chooses will harbor Myrcella and rebel against the IT with no support and defeat guaranteed. And she trusted too easily and got betrayed

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On 10/25/2020 at 2:33 AM, R2D said:

You did not explain anything.You said Renly could take KL and deal with Stannis after. You refuse to address it when I gave the reasons why he shouldn't/couldn't. You're deflecting. You're spinning.

I addressed it. I said those men crowned him as their King even with all of those things present. They planned on marching on Kings landing with all of those things present.  Again, you can disagree with my argument without pretending I didnt say it. 

 

On 10/25/2020 at 2:33 AM, R2D said:

Who said Robb wanted the Iron throne. Robb wanted help. Renly treated Robb as a rebel. The North didn't know of the incest yet, so since Renly was not forthcoming, Catelyn could be sent as envoy to Stannis by going to Storm's End.

The fact that no one knew of the incest works against you,  not for you. Robb was already siding with Renly over both Joffery, and Tommen as well as over Stannis. 

 

On 10/25/2020 at 2:33 AM, R2D said:

You said that Renly should have known Stannis laid a trap.

No, I didnt. I said it was in and of itself a distraction from the end goal. 

but to be clear it is a trap and he should indeed know it as Renly clearly outnumbers him. 

 

On 10/25/2020 at 2:33 AM, R2D said:

But I explained that defeating Stannis was an easy way to get some military cred, prevent Stannis from growing stronger, and

 

Stannis had no where to draw troops from and Renly was crowned with no military cred. Again, moot points. 

On 10/25/2020 at 2:33 AM, R2D said:

Renly had no reason to expect a magical assassin.

 

Never said he did. 

On 10/25/2020 at 2:33 AM, R2D said:

 

Therefore your reasoning that Renly was dumb because he fell for a trap doesn't hold.

It absolutely still holds, my point was he chose to fight Stannis when he didnt have to. I have laid out why I disagree

You clearly disagree with me, and thats fine.

 

On 10/25/2020 at 2:33 AM, R2D said:

 

You even moved goalposts, saying a hidden assassin could have been able to kill him but later saying a magical assassin could.

"moving the goal post" colloquially has to do with changing a story for your own win. I did no such thing. I did it so you could better understand the flaw in your argument, which you then ignored because you didnt want to address it. 

 

On 10/25/2020 at 2:33 AM, R2D said:

 

Sorry, just admit you're wrong on this one ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

Im not.  Renly was stupid for fighting Stannis when he could have taken King's Landing and been king. 

By your own logic(and Renly's), Joffery and Tommen  are Roberts lawful and natural sons. Ahead of him and Stannis.  In the same passage where you quote Cat almost believing Stannis, Renly says it is a lie and doesnt matter, because he will take the thrown the same way Robert did, by might. Robert was fine with being called a usurper. 

funny how you forgot about that part. 

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48 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

I addressed it. I said those men crowned him as their King even with all of those things present. They planned on marching on Kings landing with all of those things present.  Again, you can disagree with my argument without pretending I didnt say it. 

That's because Renly could not march on Dragonstone, he had no navy. He either expected Stannis to stay put or go for Kings Landing first. But once Stannis presented a challenge, he could not ignore it.

48 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

IThe fact that no one knew of the incest works against you,  not for you. Robb was already siding with Renly over both Joffery, and Tommen as well as over Stannis. 

No he wasn't. He sent an envoy because he wanted help. He wanted to support Stannis because he had the right at the start, but Greatjon crowned him king. Renly made it clear he was going to wait for the Starks and Lannisters to finish each other and wasn't offering help unless Robb bent the knee.

48 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

No, I didnt. I said it was in and of itself a distraction from the end goal. 

but to be clear it is a trap and he should indeed know it as Renly clearly outnumbers him. 

Yes you did, word for word.

Renly could not have expected Stannis to have a magical shadow under his sleeve. Stannis was outnumbered, but battles have been won at worse odds. Besides, Stannis could have made a move on Storms End first because of the sentimental value the castle has over him, it is where he grew up and he resents Renly and Robert bitterly because Robert gave him the castle over Renly.

Quote

 

You are missing my point. 

Im not arguing danger, Im arguing strategy. There was no strategic reason for him fighting Stannis what so ever. He only did it because he viewed himself as unbeatable.  This is what made him stupid. 

Lets say Renly dies because Stannis has an archer on a cliff shoot him,  you get the same end result, but instead of arguing the magic ex machina, you  see it as someone calling for an obvious trap. 

So in short, in my opinion, Renly fell for an obvious trap when he shouldn't have even been paying attention to Stannis. 

 

"There was no strategic reason to fight Stannis" changed into "It was a distraction" -> moving the goalposts.

"An archer on a cliff could have shot him" changed into "a magical arrow endowed with RH'llor could have shot him" -> moving the goalposts.

48 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

Stannis had no where to draw troops from and Renly was crowned with no military cred. Again, moot points. 

Sellswords. Robb's allegiance. A marriage alliance with Robin Arryn. Theres plenty of allies.

Exactly, Renly was crowned with no military cred. That's why everyone underestimated him, Tyrion said he feared Stannis more because Stannis had won battles while Renly had won the love of the common folk but wasn't tested in battle. That's why its important for him to win some battles.

48 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

Never said he did. 

It absolutely still holds, my point was he chose to fight Stannis when he didnt have to. I have laid out why I disagree

You clearly disagree with me, and thats fine.

That's because you are being completely disingenuous. 

48 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

"moving the goal post" colloquially has to do with changing a story for your own win. I did no such thing. I did it so you could better understand the flaw in your argument, which you then ignored because you didnt want to address it. 

See above. You moved the goalposts. 

48 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

Im not.  Renly was stupid for fighting Stannis when he could have taken King's Landing and been king. 

By your own logic(and Renly's), Joffery and Tommen  are Roberts lawful and natural sons. Ahead of him and Stannis.  In the same passage where you quote Cat almost believing Stannis, Renly says it is a lie and doesnt matter, because he will take the thrown the same way Robert did, by might. Robert was fine with being called a usurper. 

funny how you forgot about that part. 

Sitting on some pointy chair doesn't make him king. 

What Renly feels about it doesn't matter, Catelyn's feelings does. If Renly can get rid of Stannis before major players like the Starks and Tullys believe in his incest allegations and back him, and Stannis is another usurper, and it's still ~up in the air~ all the better for him.

Edited by R2D

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Cersei's problem is a lack of morals.  She does not lack for brains. 

I would like to read a good comparison between Robert's girls. Cersei and Lyanna.  I expect them to have a lot in common.

Edited by Prince Rhaego's Soul

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15 hours ago, R2D said:

That's because Renly could not march on Dragonstone, he had no navy. He either expected Stannis to stay put or go for Kings Landing first. But once Stannis presented a challenge, he could not ignore it.

 

Renly never had a plan to fight Stannis, and was even willing to give him Storm's End.  Im not sure what you are even arguing at this point. 
 

I also said Renly could have sent a small force to fight Stannis, either way, he didnt have to go himself. 

15 hours ago, R2D said:

No he wasn't. He sent an envoy because he wanted help. He wanted to support Stannis because he had the right at the start, but Greatjon crowned him king. Renly made it clear he was going to wait for the Starks and Lannisters to finish each other and wasn't offering help unless Robb bent the knee.

Robb didnt know of the incest.  picking Stannis or Renly is absolutely treason either way because Joffery is the rightful king.  Which is exactly what Catelyn says in the meeting between  Renly and Stannis. You can not quote that conversation in your argument and then pretend it doesnt exist when it completely contradicts your point. 

 

15 hours ago, R2D said:

Yes you did, word for word.

Renly could not have expected Stannis to have a magical shadow under his sleeve. Stannis was outnumbered, but battles have been won at worse odds. Besides, Stannis could have made a move on Storms End first because of the sentimental value the castle has over him, it is where he grew up and he resents Renly and Robert bitterly because Robert gave him the castle over Renly.

I already explained how you are wrong. Like I said, you have every right to disagree. 

 

15 hours ago, R2D said:

"There was no strategic reason to fight Stannis" changed into "It was a distraction" -> moving the goalposts.

Those 2 lines mean the exact same thing, how is it even moving the goal post in your mind , explain your argument. 

 

15 hours ago, R2D said:

"An archer on a cliff could have shot him" changed into "a magical arrow endowed with RH'llor could have shot him" -> moving the goalposts.

Nope, that is you not being able to accept a lucky archer in this universe. Not me. Try again. 

 

15 hours ago, R2D said:

Sellswords. Robb's allegiance. A marriage alliance with Robin Arryn. Theres plenty of allies.

sure. I mean Stannis already labeled Robb a traitor. 

 

15 hours ago, R2D said:

Exactly, Renly was crowned with no military cred. That's why everyone underestimated him, Tyrion said he feared Stannis more because Stannis had won battles while Renly had won the love of the common folk but wasn't tested in battle. That's why its important for him to win some battles.

That is why you personally think he needs to win some battles. The story never once calls for that. Even in Tarly's explanation, it sisnt about losing support to Stannis, its about being diminished to the point Stannis has equal the men. 

 

15 hours ago, R2D said:

That's because you are being completely disingenuous.

See above. You moved the goalposts. 

There is no need for this back and forth.  Especially when the end result is the same in every single scenario presented so obviously no goal post is moved LOL. 

 

15 hours ago, R2D said:

Sitting on some pointy chair doesn't make him king. 

Oh, we agree there. But in Universe, it absolutely does. 

 

15 hours ago, R2D said:

What Renly feels about it doesn't matter, Catelyn's feelings does. If Renly can get rid of Stannis before major players like the Starks and Tullys believe in his incest allegations and back him, and Stannis is another usurper, and it's still ~up in the air~ all the better for him.

What Renly feels absolutely does matter in the context of your argument.  It destroys the very claim you are making. 

Renly is 4th in line to the throne is his own eyes. He doesnt care about Stannis' claim. 

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8 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

Renly never had a plan to fight Stannis, and was even willing to give him Storm's End.  Im not sure what you are even arguing at this point. 

Because Stannis was on Dragonstone and he could not reach him.

And yes he had plans to either make Stannis submit or to fight him if he didn't. 

8 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

I also said Renly could have sent a small force to fight Stannis, either way, he didnt have to go himself. 

Sure he could have, but he wouldn't get the credit for winning the battle, and he would be seen as a coward. 

Not to mention, Stannis would likely still use a shadow baby on Renly anyway, he could escape by sea and we don't even know if theres a distance limit.

The only way Renly going himself would be a mistake is if the area around Storm's End is necessary to spring Stannis' trap. Since it's not, it was not a mistake.

8 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

Robb didnt know of the incest.  picking Stannis or Renly is absolutely treason either way because Joffery is the rightful king.  Which is exactly what Catelyn says in the meeting between  Renly and Stannis. You can not quote that conversation in your argument and then pretend it doesnt exist when it completely contradicts your point. 

I said if Catelyn learns of the incest from Stannis, she could ask Robb to support him. Learn to read ffs. 

8 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

I already explained how you are wrong. Like I said, you have every right to disagree. 

Nah.

8 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

Those 2 lines mean the exact same thing, how is it even moving the goal post in your mind , explain your argument. 

Moving the goal post is when points have been adequately answered but the argumentator refuses to concede and instead brings up new points to be answered. And on it goes.

8 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

Nope, that is you not being able to accept a lucky archer in this universe. Not me. Try again. 

Oh so it changed into a "lucky archer" again instead of a magical one. I already explained why no one could sneak into Renly's camp without being found out, especially not an archer.

8 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

sure. I mean Stannis already labeled Robb a traitor. 

Yes. Because he named himself king. If he put aside his crown he would no longer be king.

8 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

That is why you personally think he needs to win some battles. The story never once calls for that. Even in Tarly's explanation, it sisnt about losing support to Stannis, its about being diminished to the point Stannis has equal the men. 

Canon: Tywin and Tyrion fear Stannis more than Renly because Stannis is known as a hardened battle commander. Canon: Tarly gained a lot of respect in Westeros for defeating Robert Baratheon. Inference: If Renly defeats Stannis, he would gain respect from allies and enemies.

8 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

There is no need for this back and forth.  Especially when the end result is the same in every single scenario presented so obviously no goal post is moved LOL. 

The end scenario in a universe where Stannis has no shadow baby is Renly wins.

8 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

Oh, we agree there. But in Universe, it absolutely does. 

No it doesn't. 

8 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

What Renly feels absolutely does matter in the context of your argument.  It destroys the very claim you are making. 

Renly is 4th in line to the throne is his own eyes. He doesnt care about Stannis' claim. 

It doesn't matter. Renly says this a day before battling with Stannis, so he knew Stannis would be defeated. That means Stannis would be defeated before he could sell Catelyn on the incest, and maybe win some other allies. He even has a conversation with Catelyn about it. Catelyn says if the tale of incest is true, Stannis would be the rightful heir. Renly replies that's true as long as Stannis remains undefeated.

Edited by R2D

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1 hour ago, R2D said:

Stannis was sending an unspoken challenge by sieging Storms End and so Renly had to fight him. Before that, he was content to let Stannis be on his island OR he expected him to go for King's Landing first. 

Again, that isnt true, Renly fully expected to leap frog to legal heirs and a 3rd in line and fight all of them.

1 hour ago, R2D said:

Sure he could have, but he wouldn't get the credit for winning the battle, and he would be seen as a coward. 

literally no one in the story claims this.  You have a right to your opinion, but the context isnt there. 

1 hour ago, R2D said:

I said if Catelyn learns of the incest from Stannis, she could ask Robb to support him. Learn to read ffs. 

There is no "if", this actually does happen in the story.  She did find out about the incest, Robb does know of it, and he does not lay down his crown. 

1 hour ago, R2D said:

Nah.

Yeah. 

1 hour ago, R2D said:

Moving the goal post is when points have been adequately answered but the argumentator refuses to concede and instead brings up new points to be answered. And on it goes.

Except, you are the "argumentator" here, not me.  And it isnt a new point. 

1 hour ago, R2D said:

Oh so it changed into a "lucky archer" again instead of a magical one. I already explained why no one could sneak into Renly's camp without being found out, especially not an archer.

I never said sneak into his camp. I specifically said from a cliff.  But none of that matters because you r argument is it couldnt happen. 
 

And when I changed it to a magic arrow endowed by R'hollor, you ignored it  because then your entire argument goes out the window. 

1 hour ago, R2D said:

Yes. Because he named himself king. If he put aside his crown he would no longer be king.

Again, in the actual story, Robb does not put aside his crown for Stannis.  So no. 

1 hour ago, R2D said:

Canon: Tywin and Tyrion fear Stannis more than Renly because Stannis is known as a hardened battle commander. Canon: Tarly gained a lot of respect in Westeros for defeating Robert Baratheon. Inference: If Renly defeats Stannis, he would gain respect from allies and enemies.

Which has nothing to do with my post. 

1 hour ago, R2D said:

The end scenario in a universe where Stannis has no shadow baby is Renly wins.

LOL, suspends disbelief for an ex machina , but nothing else could kill him, not even the same ex machina in a different form.

1 hour ago, R2D said:

No it doesn't. 

Yes it does. Joffery is "king" while technically only controlling the Westerlands and parts of the crownlands. 

1 hour ago, R2D said:

It doesn't matter. Renly says this a day before battling with Stannis, so he knew Stannis would be defeated. That means Stannis would be defeated before he could sell Catelyn on the incest, and maybe win some other allies. He even has a conversation with Catelyn about it. Catelyn says if the tale of incest is true, Stannis would be the rightful heir.

 

Again. You are wrong. 

the very fact that Renly is crowned king proves you wrong.  In fact, he was crowned before Stannis sent the letter.  We know this because in the chapter where the letter is written, they speak of Renly being crowned at Highgarden and marching .

Robb chose Renly over Stannis and Tommen. 

Robb saw Renly as 4th, Renly saw himself as 4th and Stannis saw him as second. 

 

1 hour ago, R2D said:

 

Renly replies as long as he's undefeated. 

 

No he doesnt . the context of that is Renly does not give Cat leave to return to Riverrun because he wants her to witness him destroying Stannis so that she can tell Robb what happens to rebels. 

Renly rejected Robbs offer and says he is next. 

How is it possible you misunderstood that so badly ?

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3 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

Again, that isnt true, Renly fully expected to leap frog to legal heirs and a 3rd in line and fight all of them.

Yep, he expected to fight Stannis, which is why he fought him after Stannis sieged Storm's End.

3 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

literally no one in the story claims this.  You have a right to your opinion, but the context isnt there. 

It's called an inference. Tytos Lannister was known as a coward because he refused to fight battles. Renly refused to fight before dawn because he didn't want to seen as treacherous, so we know he cares about image.

And Renly does say it:

Your Grace, I see no need for battle here,” Lord Mathis Rowan put in. “The castle is strongly garrisoned and well provisioned, Ser Cortnay Penrose is a seasoned commander, and the trebuchet has not been built that could breach the walls of Storm’s End. Let Lord Stannis have his siege. He will find no joy in it, and whilst he sits cold and hungry and profitless, we will take King’s Landing.”


“And have men say I feared to face Stannis?”

3 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

There is no "if", this actually does happen in the story.  She did find out about the incest, Robb does know of it, and he does not lay down his crown. 

Because when Catelyn returns she tells everyone Stannis is a murderous kinslayer who uses dark magic.

3 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

Yeah. 

Must be why no one agrees with you. 

3 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

I never said sneak into his camp. I specifically said from a cliff.  But none of that matters because you r argument is it couldnt happen. 

It couldn't happen because Stannis' camp was so far away they looked like mice when they went to meet him at the parley. Since they had to travel some distance from the parley to Renly's camp when they returned, that means Stannis' camp and Renly's camp were very far from each other.

If the garrison at Storm's End could not shoot Stannis' army with arrows because of the distance, no one in Stannis' army could shoot from their camp into Renly's camp.

Renly was also surrounded by his army. So this archer, even if he managed to shoot all that way, would hit Renly's soldiers first before he ever hit Renly.

3 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

And when I changed it to a magic arrow endowed by R'hollor, you ignored it  because then your entire argument goes out the window. 

No, I said that no one thinks magic exists in the story. So that point is moot, in your own words.

3 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

Again, in the actual story, Robb does not put aside his crown for Stannis.  So no. 

Because by that time Catelyn had gone and told everyone Stannis was a kinslayer who uses dark magic. And Renly can't predict what her reactions would be.

3 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

Which has nothing to do with my post. 

Yes it does...?

3 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

LOL, suspends disbelief for an ex machina , but nothing else could kill him, not even the same ex machina in a different form.

Repeating "suspend disbelief" again and again doesn't make your point more valid. Renly has no reason to think magic exists.

3 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

Yes it does. Joffery is "king" while technically only controlling the Westerlands and parts of the crownlands. 

No it doesn't. Rhaenyra was on the throne but was quickly overthrown.

3 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

Again. You are wrong. 

the very fact that Renly is crowned king proves you wrong.  In fact, he was crowned before Stannis sent the letter.  We know this because in the chapter where the letter is written, they speak of Renly being crowned at Highgarden and marching .

Robb chose Renly over Stannis and Tommen. 

Robb saw Renly as 4th, Renly saw himself as 4th and Stannis saw him as second. 

 

No he doesnt . the context of that is Renly does not give Cat leave to return to Riverrun because he wants her to witness him destroying Stannis so that she can tell Robb what happens to rebels. 

Renly rejected Robbs offer and says he is next. 

How is it possible you misunderstood that so badly ?

How can you destroy your own argument so badly? Renly wants to deal with Stannis first before Catelyn can return to Riverrun. What happens if Catelyn goes to Storms End after meeting Renly at Bitterbridge? Stannis' army is not destroyed, and she gets to talk with him and eke out an alliance. 

Edited by R2D

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3 hours ago, R2D said:

Yep, he expected to fight Stannis, which is why he fought him after Stannis sieged Storm's End.

so you admit you were wrong.  great.

3 hours ago, R2D said:

It's called an inference. Tytos Lannister was known as a coward because he refused to fight battles. Renly refused to fight before dawn because he didn't want to seen as treacherous, so we know he cares about image.

And Renly does say it:

Your Grace, I see no need for battle here,” Lord Mathis Rowan put in. “The castle is strongly garrisoned and well provisioned, Ser Cortnay Penrose is a seasoned commander, and the trebuchet has not been built that could breach the walls of Storm’s End. Let Lord Stannis have his siege. He will find no joy in it, and whilst he sits cold and hungry and profitless, we will take King’s Landing.”


“And have men say I feared to face Stannis?”

 

Again, so you agree since none of his commanders made such a comment, therefore, they didnt care. 

 

3 hours ago, R2D said:

Because when Catelyn returns she tells everyone Stannis is a murderous kinslayer who uses dark magic.

moving the goal post. 

3 hours ago, R2D said:

Must be why no one agrees with you. 

you mad huh ?

3 hours ago, R2D said:

It couldn't happen because Stannis' camp was so far away they looked like mice when they went to meet him at the parley. Since they had to travel some distance from the parley to Renly's camp when they returned, that means Stannis' camp and Renly's camp were very far from each other.

If the garrison at Storm's End could not shoot Stannis' army with arrows because of the distance, no one in Stannis' army could shoot from their camp into Renly's camp.

Renly was also surrounded by his army. So this archer, even if he managed to shoot all that way, would hit Renly's soldiers first before he ever hit Renly.

again irrelevant, never claimed they were shooting from one camp to the other.  You keep trying to move the goal post and add mental road blocks.

 

3 hours ago, R2D said:

No, I said that no one thinks magic exists in the story. So that point is moot, in your own words.

what does it matter if people believe in magic  ? the actual story involves a magical death.  you are moving the goal post again, and what is worse is your argument doesnt even work. 

3 hours ago, R2D said:

Repeating "suspend disbelief" again and again doesn't make your point more valid. Renly has no reason to think magic exists.

What does Renly believing in magic have to do with it ? Again, the argument is that it makes no sense to fight Stannis.  

3 hours ago, R2D said:

No it doesn't. Rhaenyra was on the throne but was quickly overthrown.

What does being overthrown have to do with whether or not you were defined as King or Queen mean ???? you are so lost in the sauce, you are making random incoherent arguments, LOL

3 hours ago, R2D said:

How can you destroy your own argument so badly? Renly wants to deal with Stannis first before Catelyn can return to Riverrun. What happens if Catelyn goes to Storms End after meeting Renly at Bitterbridge? Stannis' army is not destroyed, and she gets to talk with him and eke out an alliance. 

There is no alliance, both label Robb a traitor and Robb never once says he would give his crown to either.  No idea why you are lying to yourself with  a hypothetical that technically happens and goes the opposite of what you claim. 

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2 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

so you admit you were wrong.  great.

No, let's start over. You said Renly was never expecting to fight Stannis because he was marching on King's Landing. I pointed out Stannis is on Dragonstone so he can't fight him even if he wanted to, and he either expected Stannis to stay on Dragonstone or take King's Landing first. If Stannis did the first, Renly wouldn't see him as a threat. If he did the second, he would either be rebuffed by Tywin or he would take the city, in which case Renly would fight him. Therefore, the scenario where Renly refuses to fight his brother after Stannis attacked his seat of power would never come up, which is what you said Renly and his followers expected from the outset.

2 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

Again, so you agree since none of his commanders made such a comment, therefore, they didnt care. 

No you were wrong. You said no one said that he would be seen as a coward. And Randyll Tarly agreed with fighting Stannis, and he's the best commander Renly has.

2 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

moving the goal post. 

No it's not. It's changing the events because of a different scenario. 

If Stannis didn't kill Renly with a shadow baby, Catelyn wouldn't see him as a kinslayer, and she wouldn't have to flee because she was implicated in the attack. That is why, if Renly didn't take care of Stannis Catelyn could form an alliance with him.

2 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

you mad huh ?

Frustrated.

2 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

again irrelevant, never claimed they were shooting from one camp to the other.  You keep trying to move the goal post and add mental road blocks.

Stannis' camp is near the cliff where Storms End is. So the archer would be shooting from one camp to another if he was shooting from a cliff. Even if the archer tries to get near enough to Renly to shoot him, he would have to go on level land. Then shoot up, because Renly's camp is on a ridge. Before he even makes it that far, he would be seen by Renly's scouts and sentries, because there's an expanse of land between the two camps. He wouldn't even be able to specifically aim for Renly among the mass of people, he's not a sniper. Therefore he cannot kill Renly.

2 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

what does it matter if people believe in magic  ? the actual story involves a magical death.  you are moving the goal post again, and what is worse is your argument doesnt even work. 

What does Renly believing in magic have to do with it ? Again, the argument is that it makes no sense to fight Stannis.  

Because if people don't believe in magic, and the only way Stannis can kill Renly is through magic, it means Renly has nothing to fear.

Your basic argument is if a man, who's an army vet and jacked, agrees to a fist fight with a scrawny undernourished guy, and the scrawny guy kills him through magic, the army vet is dumb. Except no one would think so because he has no reason to expect scrawny guy to do that. 

2 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

What does being overthrown have to do with whether or not you were defined as King or Queen mean ???? you are so lost in the sauce, you are making random incoherent arguments, LOL

Rhaenyra wasn't seen as a true queen.

But that doesn't even matter. Stannis would kill Renly with a shadow baby anyway even if Renly took King's Landing and ignored him. 

2 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

There is no alliance, both label Robb a traitor and Robb never once says he would give his crown to either.  No idea why you are lying to yourself with  a hypothetical that technically happens and goes the opposite of what you claim. 

I said Catelyn could convince Robb to set aside his crown.

Edited by R2D

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