Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Alyn Oakenfist

Who's the stupidest player in the Game of Thrones?

Recommended Posts

15 hours ago, R2D said:

No, let's start over. You said Renly was never expecting to fight Stannis because he was marching on King's Landing. I pointed out Stannis is on Dragonstone so he can't fight him even if he wanted to, and he either expected Stannis to stay on Dragonstone or take King's Landing first. If Stannis did the first, Renly wouldn't see him as a threat. If he did the second, he would either be rebuffed by Tywin or he would take the city, in which case Renly would fight him. Therefore, the scenario where Renly refuses to fight his brother after Stannis attacked his seat of power would never come up, which is what you said Renly and his followers expected from the outset.

 

In short,, the line of succession never mattered to Renly. 

15 hours ago, R2D said:


 

No you were wrong. You said no one said that he would be seen as a coward. And Randyll Tarly agreed with fighting Stannis, and he's the best commander Renly has.

No one said he would be a coward. Renly himself made the claim and no one agreed with it. No one cared. They simply said Stannis could become a threat based on losing men to the lannisters.

 

15 hours ago, R2D said:

No it's not. It's changing the events because of a different scenario. 

 

So you see how you claiming I was moving the goal post earlier is completely flawed, and you are simply trying to get me to understand your argument from your perspective ?

15 hours ago, R2D said:

If Stannis didn't kill Renly with a shadow baby, Catelyn wouldn't see him as a kinslayer, and she wouldn't have to flee because she was implicated in the attack. That is why, if Renly didn't take care of Stannis Catelyn could form an alliance with him.

Except, Both Stannis and Renly have already rejected an alliance. Your argument is that the winner would have changed their minds. 

Stannis never reached out to Robb after the death of Renly , and Renly was planning on using Stannis's death as a warning to Robb . 

You are literally trying to rewrite the characters. 

15 hours ago, R2D said:

 

Stannis' camp is near the cliff where Storms End is. So the archer would be shooting from one camp to another if he was shooting from a cliff. Even if the archer tries to get near enough to Renly to shoot him, he would have to go on level land. Then shoot up, because Renly's camp is on a ridge. Before he even makes it that far, he would be seen by Renly's scouts and sentries, because there's an expanse of land between the two camps. He wouldn't even be able to specifically aim for Renly among the mass of people, he's not a sniper. Therefore he cannot kill Renly.

Again, in this scenario, its an ex machina magic arrow, it doesnt follow the laws of physics.  thats the point of calling it a magic error. 

again, you suspend disbelief for a shadow baby, but not a magic arrow. 

15 hours ago, R2D said:

Because if people don't believe in magic, and the only way Stannis can kill Renly is through magic, it means Renly has nothing to fear.

Again, its not about fear, its strategy. the end goal is the throne, which he can take with as little loss of life as possible the quicker he strikes. 
 

 

15 hours ago, R2D said:

Your basic argument is if a man, who's an army vet and jacked, agrees to a fist fight with a scrawny undernourished guy, and the scrawny guy kills him through magic, the army vet is dumb. Except no one would think so because he has no reason to expect scrawny guy to do that. 

Thats not my argument.  Again, he doesnt have to fight Stannis. You simply are mentally invested with the story being linear and only having one outcome, you cant even see other scenarios.  

15 hours ago, R2D said:

Rhaenyra wasn't seen as a true queen.


Rhaenyra ruled The North, The Vale, The Iron Islands, The Crownlands,   The Riverlands, and part of the Reach

She was crowned and ruled from Kings Landing and her son succeeds her, not as Aegon II heir, but as her own heir.

Fire and Blood confirms this. 

15 hours ago, R2D said:

But that doesn't even matter. Stannis would kill Renly with a shadow baby anyway even if Renly took King's Landing and ignored him. 

cool

 

15 hours ago, R2D said:

I said Catelyn could convince Robb to set aside his crown.

She did, she failed. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/28/2020 at 1:55 PM, dsjj251 said:

 

In short,, the line of succession never mattered to Renly. 

 

Yeah that wasn't your original argument though.

On 10/28/2020 at 1:55 PM, dsjj251 said:

No one said he would be a coward. Renly himself made the claim and no one agreed with it. No one cared. They simply said Stannis could become a threat based on losing men to the lannisters.

Nope, Mathis Rowan said only fools would say it. But even the opinion of fools matter. The smallfolk in King's Landing are fools. But they played a part in Margaery's release, as the mob asked for Margaery to be released but couldn't care less about Cersei. 

Image also matters. As I have said, Tytos Lannister was known as a coward because he let other men fight battles for him. Mace Tyrell is known as a pompous fool because everyone knows Randyll Tarly won Ashford, and not him.

And if only Renly's commanders are right and not Renly himself, that means Randyll Tarly is right about Stannis growing stronger.

On 10/28/2020 at 1:55 PM, dsjj251 said:

So you see how you claiming I was moving the goal post earlier is completely flawed, and you are simply trying to get me to understand your argument from your perspective ?

Because I didn't move any goalposts. Your argument rests on everything happening as it did in canon. But if Renly does not confront Stannis, everything changes. If Stannis does not kill Renly with a shadow baby, there's a very good chance Catelyn would buy his story of the incest and ask Robb to team up with him.

On 10/28/2020 at 1:55 PM, dsjj251 said:

Except, Both Stannis and Renly have already rejected an alliance. Your argument is that the winner would have changed their minds. 

Stannis never reached out to Robb after the death of Renly , and Renly was planning on using Stannis's death as a warning to Robb . 

You are literally trying to rewrite the characters. 

No they haven't. When Catelyn went to Renly to ask for an alliance, Renly didn't know about Stannis' thoughts of an alliance with Robb yet. This was when he had to make the decision to confront Stannis or not. He did know that Catelyn thought Stannis had the better claim though. That's something that should indicate that she would be open to negotiating with Stannis after Renly.

On 10/28/2020 at 1:55 PM, dsjj251 said:

Again, in this scenario, its an ex machina magic arrow, it doesnt follow the laws of physics.  thats the point of calling it a magic error. 

again, you suspend disbelief for a shadow baby, but not a magic arrow. 

:bang:

On 10/28/2020 at 1:55 PM, dsjj251 said:

Again, its not about fear, its strategy. the end goal is the throne, which he can take with as little loss of life as possible the quicker he strikes. 
 

 

Thats not my argument.  Again, he doesnt have to fight Stannis. You simply are mentally invested with the story being linear and only having one outcome, you cant even see other scenarios.  

There's more strategic reasons to fight Stannis than not to fight Stannis.

On 10/28/2020 at 1:55 PM, dsjj251 said:


Rhaenyra ruled The North, The Vale, The Iron Islands, The Crownlands,   The Riverlands, and part of the Reach

She was crowned and ruled from Kings Landing and her son succeeds her, not as Aegon II heir, but as her own heir.

Fire and Blood confirms this. 

She wasn't known as a true queen. She is known as a usurper and traitor and no one calls her Rhaenyra I, which they would if she was truly a queen.

On 10/28/2020 at 1:55 PM, dsjj251 said:

cool

So you agree that fighting Stannis was better for Renly because if he took KL and fought Stannis later he would be known to be a coward who refused to fight his brother, and also Stannis would become king if he took out Renly later, which Renly wanted to avoid by fighting him. Cool.

On 10/28/2020 at 1:55 PM, dsjj251 said:

She did, she failed. 

This was much later, when the Lannisters and Tyrells had joined forces, and putting aside his crown would mean bending the knee to Joffrey. I'm talking about a scenario where Catelyn goes to Stannis as an envoy, and they hash out an alliance.

This could happen: Renly takes KL. But his army is weakened by Tywin and King's Landing's defences. Catelyn is convinced Stannis is the true heir and that Ned died in support of Stannis. Stannis next commits an assault on King's Landing. But this time he has the allegiance of the North and perhaps even the Vale. He successfully takes King's Landing and executes Renly as a traitor.

Or this: Stannis takes KL. Tywin is kept busy by Robb, who surrounds Harrenhall. But then Robb draws his army away from Harrenhall so Tywin is free to go. Tywin meets Renly's army, and destroys a portion of it. Now Renly has to take King's Landing, but Stannis defends it better than the Lannisters because he inspires faith much more than Joffrey does, and his army is of better quality than the goldcloaks. Robb hits Renly in the rear while he is siegeing it. Renly is successfully repelled and Stannis remains king.

Etc...

Edited by R2D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, R2D said:

Yeah that wasn't your original argument though.

 

Yes it was. My entire point is Renly didnt have to fight Stannis.  Renly doesnt care about Stannis claim. 

8 hours ago, R2D said:

Nope, Mathis Rowan said only fools would say it. But even the opinion of fools matter. The smallfolk in King's Landing are fools. But they played a part in Margaery's release, as the mob asked for Margaery to be released but couldn't care less about Cersei. 

What happened with Margaery has nothing to do with Rowan. You said nope as if Rowan said something different. 

 

8 hours ago, R2D said:

Image also matters. As I have said, Tytos Lannister was known as a coward because he let other men fight battles for him. Mace Tyrell is known as a pompous fool because everyone knows Randyll Tarly won Ashford, and not him.

No, Tytos was seen as weak because he let other men run over him. Not a single thing in any of the companion books claims he "let other men fight his battles" or that anyone saw him as weak for it.  

8 hours ago, R2D said:

 

 

8 hours ago, R2D said:

Because I didn't move any goalposts. Your argument rests on everything happening as it did in canon. But if Renly does not confront Stannis, everything changes. If Stannis does not kill Renly with a shadow baby, there's a very good chance Catelyn would buy his story of the incest and ask Robb to team up with him.

1. My argument doesnt hinge on everything staying the same, my argument is based on the fact that Robb chose Renly in the first place. 

2. Stannis has already labeled Robb a traitor and is willing to kill his own brother. 

3. That in the actual story, when Renly dies, Robb never once argues to support Stannis. 


your assumption that Robb would bend the knee to Stannis or that Stannis would accept a traitor ruling the North is you having some rosey belief in a happy ending that was never going to happen. 

 

8 hours ago, R2D said:

No they haven't. When Catelyn went to Renly to ask for an alliance, Renly didn't know about Stannis' thoughts of an alliance with Robb yet.

 

Stannis had no thoughts of an alliance with Robb. 

8 hours ago, R2D said:

This was when he had to make the decision to confront Stannis or not. He did know that Catelyn thought Stannis had the better claim though. That's something that should indicate that she would be open to negotiating with Stannis after Renly.

Catelyn Tully wears no crown, and multiple times in the story, Robb does the opposite of what you wants. 

8 hours ago, R2D said:

:bang:

There's more strategic reasons to fight Stannis than not to fight Stannis.

I disagree. 

8 hours ago, R2D said:

She wasn't known as a true queen. She is known as a usurper and traitor and no one calls her Rhaenyra I, which they would if she was truly a queen.

Fire and Blood-A Targaryen History is canon. The Blacks won. Rhaenyra won, and her heir ruled after her, not Aegon's.

This is absolute a discussion forum and debates are welcomed (obviously), but this isnt up for debate.  We have half a book that goes into detail about it, LOL

8 hours ago, R2D said:

So you agree that fighting Stannis was better for Renly because if he took KL and fought Stannis later he would be known to be a coward who refused to fight his brother, and also Stannis would become king if he took out Renly later, which Renly wanted to avoid by fighting him. Cool.

No idea why you are pretending I agree with you here. LOL

8 hours ago, R2D said:

This was much later, when the Lannisters and Tyrells had joined forces, and putting aside his crown would mean bending the knee to Joffrey. I'm talking about a scenario where Catelyn goes to Stannis as an envoy, and they hash out an alliance.

This could happen: Renly takes KL. But his army is weakened by Tywin and King's Landing's defences. Catelyn is convinced Stannis is the true heir and that Ned died in support of Stannis. Stannis next commits an assault on King's Landing. But this time he has the allegiance of the North and perhaps even the Vale. He successfully takes King's Landing and executes Renly as a traitor.

Or this: Stannis takes KL. Tywin is kept busy by Robb, who surrounds Harrenhall. But then Robb draws his army away from Harrenhall so Tywin is free to go. Tywin meets Renly's army, and destroys a portion of it. Now Renly has to take King's Landing, but Stannis defends it better than the Lannisters because he inspires faith much more than Joffrey does, and his army is of better quality than the goldcloaks. Robb hits Renly in the rear while he is siegeing it. Renly is successfully repelled and Stannis remains king.

Etc...

Again, Stannis never considered an alliance with Robb. So no, this wouldnt happen. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

 

Yes it was. My entire point is Renly didnt have to fight Stannis.  Renly doesnt care about Stannis claim. 

 

No, your point was that Renly was crowned with the very same plan from the start (that he would ignore Stannis and take King's Landing).

7 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

What happened with Margaery has nothing to do with Rowan. You said nope as if Rowan said something different. 

Yes it does. Rowan says only fools would think so. But the opinion of the smallfolk and petty lords matters very much when you are king. So I gave an example of how it matters.

7 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

No, Tytos was seen as weak because he let other men run over him. Not a single thing in any of the companion books claims he "let other men fight his battles" or that anyone saw him as weak for it.  

During the War of the Ninepenny Kings, Lord Tytos answered the call of the new king, Jaehaerys II Targaryen, sending eleven thousand westermen under the leadership of his younger brother, Ser Jason Lannister. Tytos also sent his three eldest sons—Tywin, Kevan, and Tygett Lannister—to fight in the conflict. Tytos remained at Casterly Rock, taking Gerion's wet nurse as his mistress. Roger Reyne took command of the westermen on campaign after the death of Jason at Bloodstone.[1]

Battle hardened from the war, Tytos's sons were determined to restore the power of House Lannister. Lord Tytos protested feebly before returning to the comfort and embrace of his mistress.

 

Tytos sent his family to fight wars for him while he hid, which is part of the reason he's seen as weak.

There's also another character who is called a coward for not fighting in the war during Robert's Rebellion - Tywin, by Joffrey and Robert.

Robert won great renown by fighting battles and winning them.

7 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

1. My argument doesnt hinge on everything staying the same, my argument is based on the fact that Robb chose Renly in the first place. 

2. Stannis has already labeled Robb a traitor and is willing to kill his own brother. 

3. That in the actual story, when Renly dies, Robb never once argues to support Stannis. 

1. Catelyn went to Renly first, but this when she believed both brothers were usurpers. Renly doesn't offer help unless Robb bends the knee. Catelyn then goes to meet Stannis. Catelyn believes in the incest and that Stannis is the rightful heir. She asks Robb to support Stannis.

2. When Renly was in Bitterbridge he did not know Stannis' thoughts on Robb. When Renly was at Storm's End Catelyn wanted to talk to Stannis, because she believed in the incest.

3. He was planning to lead Tywin away in the Westerlands so that Stannis could take the city. So he was in fact supporting Stannis. And Robb didn't even know of the incest when he did this.

After that, Robb could no longer support Stannis because Stannis went North after getting wrecked at the Blackwater. 

7 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

your assumption that Robb would bend the knee to Stannis or that Stannis would accept a traitor ruling the North is you having some rosey belief in a happy ending that was never going to happen. 

 

 

Stannis had no thoughts of an alliance with Robb. 

Robb was planning to support Stannis from the start. It was his bannermen who crowned him king. 

Again, because Robb called himself king, which wouldn't be true if he no longer called himself king.

7 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

Catelyn Tully wears no crown, and multiple times in the story, Robb does the opposite of what you wants. 

No he doesn't. Robb considers supporting Stannis - like I claimed. Even after Renly is dead, Robb helps Stannis, by helping him take King's Landing.

7 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

I disagree. 

Randyll Tarly disagrees with you disagreeing.

7 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

Fire and Blood-A Targaryen History is canon. The Blacks won. Rhaenyra won, and her heir ruled after her, not Aegon's.

This is absolute a discussion forum and debates are welcomed (obviously), but this isnt up for debate.  We have half a book that goes into detail about it, LOL

She is not known as a true queen. She did not win, she was quickly killed.

7 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

No idea why you are pretending I agree with you here. LOL

Cool.

7 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

Again, Stannis never considered an alliance with Robb. So no, this wouldnt happen. 

Stannis wanted to take revenge for House Stark:

Did I ever do less? I should have been Robert’s Hand.”


“That was your brother’s will. Ned never wanted it.”


“Yet he took it. That which should have been mine. Still, I give you my word, you shall have justice for his murder.”


How they loved to promise heads, these men who would be king. “Your brother promised me the same. But if truth be told, I would sooner have my daughters back, and leave justice to the gods. Cersei still holds my Sansa, and of Arya there has been no word since the day of Robert’s death.”


“If your children are found when I take the city, they shall be sent to you.” Alive or dead, his tone implied.

Catelyn wants an alliance:

My lords!” Catelyn said. “We ought to be hammering out the terms of an alliance, not trading taunts.”

Catelyn thinks if the incest is true, Stannis is heir:

Do you suppose this tale of his is true? If Joffrey is the Kingslayer’s get—”


“—your brother is the lawful heir.”

Catelyn wants to talk to Stannis:

“The Lannisters tried to kill my son Bran. A thousand times I have asked myself why. Your brother gave me my answer. There was a hunt the day he fell. Robert and Ned and most of the other men rode out after boar, but Jaime Lannister remained at Winterfell, as did the queen.”


Renly was not slow to take the implication. “So you believe the boy caught them at their incest . . .”


“I beg you, my lord, grant me leave to go to your brother Stannis and tell him what I suspect".

So what happens if Renly was not there? It's very possible that Catelyn speaks to Stannis, and he agrees to Robb setting aside his crown. Stannis already forgave traitors once because he needed the numbers, when he forgave Renly's soldiers because he needed them to take King's Landing.

Catelyn did not get a chance to have an in depth conversation with Stannis in canon. 

Edited by R2D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, R2D said:

No, your point was that Renly was crowned with the very same plan from the start (that he would ignore Stannis and take King's Landing).

Again, all of this is literally the same point. 

Quote

But the opinion of the smallfolk and petty lords matters very much when you are king.

Thats your opinion, not Rowans. 

Quote

 

Tytos sent his family to fight wars for him while he hid, which is part of the reason he's seen as weak.

There's also another character who is called a coward for not fighting in the war during Robert's Rebellion - Tywin, by Joffrey and Robert.

Tytos is called weak for everything around  that paragraph, but not fighting in a war as a Lord isnt usually something people are called weak for in this universe in general. 

And Joffery calling anyone weak is a flawed argument to use as an example. 

 

Quote

1. Catelyn went to Renly first, but this when she believed both brothers were usurpers. Renly doesn't offer help unless Robb bends the knee. Catelyn goes to meet Stannis. Catelyn believes in the incest and that Stannis is the rightful heir. She asks Robb to support Stannis.

Cat didnt go to Renly, Robb sent her to him.

Quote

2. No he hasn't. When Renly was in Bitterbridge he did not know Stannis' thoughts on Robb. 

What does that matter ? 

Quote

3. He was planning to lead Tywin away in the Westerlands so that Stannis could take the city. So he was in fact supporting Stannis. And Robb didn't even know of the incest when he did this.

After that, Robb could no longer support Stannis because Stannis went North after getting wrecked at the Blackwater. 

Robb was planning to support Stannis from the start. It was his bannermen who crowned him king. 

Again, because Robb called himself king, which wouldn't be true if he no longer called himself king.

Again, Robb supported Renly when he was 4th in line.  He came to the conclusion that numbers mattered more than rights. 

Quote

No he doesn't. Robb considers supporting Stannis - like I claimed. Even after Renly is dead, Robb helps Stannis, by helping him take King's Landing.

No, your claim was that Stannis considered an alliance with a Crowned Robb and that a  Crowned Robb would support Stannis, neither is true. 
 

If have no problem with saying both considered supporting the other when both were lords, but once they dawned crowns that was over in both directions because Robb saw Renly as more powerful, and Stannis saw Robb as a traitor. 

 

In our hypothetical, literally nothing changes until we get to Storms End. 

Quote

.She is not known as a true queen. She did not win, she was quickly killed.

Again, half a book that is canon says you are wrong. 

Quote

 

So what happens if Renly was not there? It's very possible that Catelyn speaks to Stannis, and he agrees to Robb setting aside his crown. Stannis already forgave traitors once because he needed the numbers, when he forgave Renly's soldiers because he needed them to take King's Landing.

Catelyn did not get a chance to have an in depth conversation with Stannis in canon. 

Stannis can submit terms to Cat all he wants, Robb is the only one who can accept them. 

Edited by dsjj251

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

Again, all of this is literally the same point. 

No it's not. Renly marching on King's Landing first doesn't mean he was always planning on ignoring Stannis.

17 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

Thats your opinion, not Rowans. 

As we can see, opinion lines up with canon.

17 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

Tytos is called weak for everything around  that paragraph, but not fighting in a war as a Lord isnt usually something people are called weak for in this universe in general. 

And Joffery calling anyone weak is a flawed argument to use as an example. 

In that para hes specifically called feeble for letting his family fight and not fighting himself. Daeron II was also looked down upon by Blackfyre supporters, because he didn't fight in battle like Daemon Targaryen. This is a very martial society. Tyrion and Tywin have more respect for Stannis than Renly, because Stannis is a hardened battle commander.

No it's not. Joffrey happens to be a very powerful person. Tyrion also happens to agree with Joffrey.

17 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

No, your claim was that Stannis considered an alliance with a Crowned Robb and that a  Crowned Robb would support Stannis, neither is true. 

Er no I didn't. I said Catelyn could convince Robb to set his crown aside. I said this many times.

17 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

If have no problem with saying both considered supporting the other when both were lords, but once they dawned crowns that was over in both directions because Robb saw Renly as more powerful, and Stannis saw Robb as a traitor. 

 

In our hypothetical, literally nothing changes until we get to Storms End. 

Robb wanted to keep Tommen on the throne at the start because he was the heir. But his bannermen complained because he was a Lannister. Robb then wanted to support Stannis. But Stannis was not yet crowned and the Greatjon made a speech about how southron lords mean nothing to him and crowned Robb king. Robb did not declare himself king. 

It's in line with Robb's character to want to support the rightful king.

17 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

Again, half a book that is canon says you are wrong. 

I'm right because if Rhaenyra was seen as a true monarch she would be called Rhaenyra I.

17 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

Stannis can submit terms to Cat all he wants, Robb is the only one who can accept them. 

And he probably would.

Edited by R2D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, R2D said:

No it's not. Renly marching on King's Landing first doesn't mean he was always planning on ignoring Stannis.

we are debating the inner monologue of a character here.  Its a circular argument from both of us. 

Quote

As we can see, opinion lines up with canon.

Your opinion lines up with Randyll Tarly, not Rowan, who you quoted. 

Obviously Renly decided to fight Stannis, im not disagreeing. But Rowan never supported it, and I believe he didnt have to. 

Just because Renly decided to fight stannis does not mean he had to fight him

Quote

In that para hes specifically called feeble for letting his family fight and not fighting himself. Daeron II was also looked down upon by Blackfyre supporters, because he didn't fight in battle like Daemon Targaryen. This is a very martial society. Tyrion and Tywin have more respect for Stannis than Renly, because Stannis is a hardened battle commander.

I dont disagree with the overall argument that people who  fight in wars are given more respect, but we know Tytos was seen the way he was because of his ignorance with money and letting other men run him over, not because of not fighting in a war. At best, its a contributing faction, not he defining one. 

 

 

Quote

No it's not. Joffrey happens to be a very powerful person. Tyrion also happens to agree with Joffrey.

LOL

 

Quote

Er no I didn't. I said Catelyn could convince Robb to set his crown aside. I said this many times.

you are splitting hairs.  What is the difference between what I said and what you said ????

Quote

Robb wanted to keep Tommen on the throne at the start because he was the heir. But his bannermen complained because he was a Lannister. Robb then wanted to support Stannis. But Stannis was not yet crowned and the Greatjon made a speech about how southron lords mean nothing to him and crowned Robb king. Robb did not declare himself king. 

I never said he did. 

Quote

It's in line with Robb's character to want to support the rightful king.

And yet, he supported Renly.  Regardless of if Stannis killed, Stannis would have still been his rightful king. 

Quote

I'm right because if Rhaenyra was seen as a true monarch she would be called Rhaenyra I.

She is, the whole edict about never calling her queen doesnt exist in  Fire and Blood, and she is referred to as Queen Rhaenyra, her side won , and her son reigns as a her heir. 

your argument that she isnt called queen is based on the biased opinions of male characters who dont believe women should/can rule. 

Quote

And he probably would.

You have every right to have that opinion, but in the actual story when given the chance 2 times, Robb says no. 

Edited by dsjj251

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

5 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

Your opinion lines up with Randyll Tarly, not Rowan, who you quoted. 

Obviously Renly decided to fight Stannis, im not disagreeing. But Rowan never supported it, and I believe he didnt have to. 

Just because Renly decided to fight stannis does not mean he had to fight him

Tarly is a better commander with Rowan with a better record. I brought up Rowan to say he didn't disagree, he just said foolish people would think Renly a coward. 

5 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

I dont disagree with the overall argument that people who  fight in wars are given more respect, but we know Tytos was seen the way he was because of his ignorance with money and letting other men run him over, not because of not fighting in a war. At best, its a contributing faction, not he defining one. 

 

 

Yep, it contributes to your image.

5 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

LOL

Many lords and smallfolk could be considered fools. Their opinion still matters.

5 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

you are splitting hairs.  What is the difference between what I said and what you said ????

Because I said Stannis could ally with a Robb who went back to being lord, not Robb, king of the North.

5 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

And yet, he supported Renly.  Regardless of if Stannis killed, Stannis would have still been his rightful king. 

It was Catelyn's idea to ally with Renly, not Robb.

Joffrey was the rightful king at that time.

Quote

She is, the whole edict about never calling her queen doesnt exist in  Fire and Blood, and she is referred to as Queen Rhaenyra, her side won , and her son reigns as a her heir. 

your argument that she isnt called queen is based on the biased opinions of male characters who dont believe women should/can rule. 

Point.

5 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

You have every right to have that opinion, but in the actual story when given the chance 2 times, Robb says no. 

The first time the idea of supporting Stannis is brought up, Joffrey was seen as the rightful king, not Stannis.

When he sends Catelyn to treat with Renly, Robb did not know of the incest, and after that he was fighting in battles west.

When Robb returns, Stannis is already defeated and Catelyn does not come back with Stannis' terms, both because she had to flee before she could talk with him and because she saw Stannis using dark magic to kill his own brother. And after that, Stannis went North because of Davos and Melisandre. 

Robb wanted Stannis to take the throne though, that's why he lured Tywin west. 

Catelyn says this:

If your crown is the price we must pay to have Arya and Sansa returned safe, we should pay it willingly.

Robb does not say no. This is when he offered terms to Cersei, if Cersei said yes to them Robb would have given up his crown. So theres a very probable chance he would do the same with Stannis.

Edited by R2D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/7/2020 at 11:58 AM, frenin said:
On 10/7/2020 at 12:02 PM, The hairy bear said:

I'm not sure what you are suggesting here. That Cersei had a plan B? I don't see Lancel with the bravery or capacity to attempt a direct regicide.

I disagree. Ned certainly was a fish out of water in the viper nest that was King's Landing during king Robert's reign. Of course he was. But that's not a measure of how much "dunce" or "stupid" is anyone.

In the two months that he was in the capital, he exerted a clearly positive influence to the king and managed to unveil a secret that many people at court had missed for more than a decade. He rightly mistrusted everyone else at court, and got a fairly good assessment of the main players.  He was cautious in all his proceedings and kept his investigations private. He even understood the need to bribe the City Watch to support him.

Any average courtier from the South would fare much worse than Ned if he was suddenly thrown amidst Northern politics.

“For a brief moment, Ned considered telling him all of it, but there was something in Littlefinger’s japes that irked him. The man was too clever by half, a mocking smile never far from his lips. “Jon Arryn was studying this volume when he was taken sick,” Ned said in a careful tone, to see how he might respond. And he responded as he always did: with a quip. “In that case,” he said, “death must have come as a blessed relief.” Lord Petyr Baelish bowed and took his leave. Eddard Stark allowed himself a curse. Aside from his own retainers, there was scarcely a man in this city he trusted. Littlefinger had concealed Catelyn and helped Ned in his inquiries, yet his haste to save his own skin when Jaime and his swords had come out of the rain still rankled. Varys was worse. For all his protestations of loyalty, the eunuch knew too much and did too little. Grand Maester Pycelle seemed more Cersei’s creature with every passing day, and Ser Barristan was an old man, and rigid. He would tell Ned to do his duty. Time was perilously short. The king would return from his hunt soon, and honor would require Ned to go to him with all he had learned. Vayon Poole had arranged for Sansa and Arya to sail on the Wind Witch out of Braavos, three days hence. They would be back at Winterfell before the harvest. Ned could no longer use his concern for their safety to excuse his delay.”

I love seeing people take up for Ned. He wasn’t as clueless as most fans portray him as.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/2/2020 at 8:01 AM, R2D said:

 

Tarly is a better commander with Rowan with a better record. I brought up Rowan to say he didn't disagree, he just said foolish people would think Renly a coward. 

 

But he did disagree. 

On 11/2/2020 at 8:01 AM, R2D said:

Many lords and smallfolk could be considered fools. Their opinion still matters.

"Lions to not concern themselves with the opinions of sheep".

On 11/2/2020 at 8:01 AM, R2D said:

Because I said Stannis could ally with a Robb who went back to being lord, not Robb, king of the North.

Your assumption is based on something that doesnt happen in the story even after Renly is dead. 

On 11/2/2020 at 8:01 AM, R2D said:

It was Catelyn's idea to ally with Renly, not Robb.

Joffrey was the rightful king at that time.

we already established this 

 

On 11/2/2020 at 8:01 AM, R2D said:

Point.

That you are wrong, and she is a queen, and the current line runs through her. 

On 11/2/2020 at 8:01 AM, R2D said:

The first time the idea of supporting Stannis is brought up, Joffrey was seen as the rightful king, not Stannis.

When he sends Catelyn to treat with Renly, Robb did not know of the incest, and after that he was fighting in battles west.

When Robb returns, Stannis is already defeated and Catelyn does not come back with Stannis' terms, both because she had to flee before she could talk with him and because she saw Stannis using dark magic to kill his own brother. And after that, Stannis went North because of Davos and Melisandre. 

Robb wanted Stannis to take the throne though, that's why he lured Tywin west. 

Catelyn says this:

If your crown is the price we must pay to have Arya and Sansa returned safe, we should pay it willingly.

Robb does not say no. This is when he offered terms to Cersei, if Cersei said yes to them Robb would have given up his crown. So theres a very probable chance he would do the same with Stannis.

You are playing fast and loose with the timeline there LOL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As for the timeline....

AGOT Catelyn XI - Robb declared king, no news of incest

ACOK Catelyn I - Catelyn is sent to treat with Renly

In between - Robb is in the field, fighting battles 

ACOK Catelyn VI - Stannis takes Storms End, sends letter proclaiming it and that he's the rightful heir, Catelyn says to send word to Robb, and its said an outrider could maybe reach him

ASOS Catelyn II - Robb returns, says if Stannis took King's Landing he might be able to make a peace. 

Edited by R2D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Travis said:

I wonder what he said. Fuck? Shit? Damn? Son of a bitch?

Ha! I imagine he channeled Sean Bean’s Sharpe and either said “bugger it!” Or “Bastad!”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/3/2020 at 5:22 AM, Foot_Of_The_King said:

“For a brief moment, Ned considered telling him all of it, but there was something in Littlefinger’s japes that irked him. The man was too clever by half, a mocking smile never far from his lips. “Jon Arryn was studying this volume when he was taken sick,” Ned said in a careful tone, to see how he might respond. And he responded as he always did: with a quip. “In that case,” he said, “death must have come as a blessed relief.” Lord Petyr Baelish bowed and took his leave. Eddard Stark allowed himself a curse. Aside from his own retainers, there was scarcely a man in this city he trusted. Littlefinger had concealed Catelyn and helped Ned in his inquiries, yet his haste to save his own skin when Jaime and his swords had come out of the rain still rankled. Varys was worse. For all his protestations of loyalty, the eunuch knew too much and did too little. Grand Maester Pycelle seemed more Cersei’s creature with every passing day, and Ser Barristan was an old man, and rigid. He would tell Ned to do his duty. Time was perilously short. The king would return from his hunt soon, and honor would require Ned to go to him with all he had learned. Vayon Poole had arranged for Sansa and Arya to sail on the Wind Witch out of Braavos, three days hence. They would be back at Winterfell before the harvest. Ned could no longer use his concern for their safety to excuse his delay.”

I love seeing people take up for Ned. He wasn’t as clueless as most fans portray him as.  

Pretty much this.

Ned sort of knew what was going on but his big handicap was not realising how ruthless and devious the other players would be, because he was judging everybody by his own high and honourable standards.

Oh, Ned...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...