Who's the stupidest player in the Game of Thrones?

[broken one]

9 hours ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

Sansa Stark is the dumbest player in the game.  Theon Greyjoy is the second dumbest.

She was (and is) just a child, 100% pawn. Yet she grows to become a player.

[ShimShim]

Danny. Should have sailed west instead of stay and try to rule Mereen. Plus her taste in consorts, i remember someone saying she might actually get with Euron judging by her fondness for people like Daario, and I could totally see that happening.

[TedBear]

10 hours ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

Sansa Stark is the dumbest player in the game.  Theon Greyjoy is the second dumbest.

Sansa is still learning how to handle herself, I think she has everything to be one of the best in the game. The worst is certainly Cersei. 

[Lord Lannister]

13 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I dunno, I've always felt like he's smarter then he lets on. And he also quite clearly listens to what his ma tells him. So not such a bad player

Agreed. The guy always lands on his feet despite his oafish personality and always seems to avoid his side soaking up casualties while others do.

[TedBear]

1 hour ago, ShimShim said:

Danny. Should have sailed west instead of stay and try to rule Mereen. Plus her taste in consorts, i remember someone saying she might actually get with Euron judging by her fondness for people like Daario, and I could totally see that happening.

I already think that if she had gone to Westeros at that moment it would be worse. Other than that she is smart, knows to admit mistakes and learns things quickly.The only guy she chose was Daario and she left him to do a political wedding. I don't really see her staying with Euron, it looks like they'll be enemies, he'll probably steal a dragon from her and she certainly won't see it as attractive, she could marry Victarion, but nothing has happened yet.

 

[Loose Bolt]

My candidate for Darwin's Award is a dude who went into Red Keep telling anyone that he is going to kill crown prince. After all it would be almost impossible to make any worse move in game of thrones.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 hour ago, Loose Bolt said:

After all it would be almost impossible to make any worse move in game of thrones.

I mean Cersei is on the same level trying to kill Loras, Margery and Trystane, the people that maintain the alliances that keep her on her throne

[talvikorppi]

17 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

And why is it Cersei?

Well, she beat Ned, there's that... :-D

But how easy was it to beat someone who was NOT playing the game of thrones, like honourable dead Ned?

That Cersei's half-arsed scheme of killing Robert (on a hunting trip by having Lancel get him even more drunk than usual in the hope of a hunting accident) actually worked out just in time it needed to was pure luck... Or was it?

Ned gave his ultimatum to Cersei while Robert was away hunting. Lo and behold! Soon after, the king had a hunting accident! Official story: the king was drunk, tragic accident. Honourable witness Ser Barristan Selmy the befuddled confirms. - So, I'm wondering if Cersei sent messages, took a more active stance than merely wishing drunkeness while hunting would kill her husband?

We'll never know. It's probably just a writer's convenience by GRRM to advance the story he wants to tell, i.e. what happens after King Robert dies - the point of the first book. Or more precisely, what happens after the father figure (Ned) dies and the children (the Stark kids) are scattered and having to fend for themselves before they are ready.

So the minutiae of Cersei killing of Robert don't really matter.

But as to the game of thrones, Cersei sure beat the non-player Ned.

 

[frenin]

17 hours ago, El Guapo said:

Eddard Stark by far

That may be the worst take of all of them.

17 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

lousy political player

He was betrayed, i don't think that makes him especially a lousy political player.

 

13 hours ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

Sansa Stark is the dumbest player in the game. 

Sansa so far has not been a player un the game, only a pawn.

 

4 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Because let's not forget that Cersei only prevailed because of sheer luck.

Honestly, the only reason why Cersei won and Ned is stupid is because Petyr chose to betray Ned, Cersei didn't even seek the man, had that not happened, no amount of Strongwine or Hounds would've saved the Lannisters in King's Landing.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, frenin said:

4 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Because let's not forget that Cersei only prevailed because of sheer luck.

Honestly, the only reason why Cersei son and Ned is stupid is because Petyr chose to betray Ned, Cersei didn't even seek the man, had that not happened, no amount of Strongwine or Hounds would've saved the Lannisters in King's Landing.

It's a testament to Cersei's stupidity that even after Sansa and Ned (but mainly Ned, Sansa just gave away the details) told her everything, and I mean everything, she still needed Littlefinger turning cloak to win

[talvikorppi]

6 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

It's a testament to Cersei's stupidity that even after Sansa and Ned (but mainly Ned, Sansa just gave away the details) told her everything, and I mean everything, she still needed Littlefinger turning cloak to win

The details that enabled the Lannister soldiers to go down to the harbour, find the ship Ned had contracted, and find Ned's letter to Stannis, which proved his and Stannis's "treason". Oh, Sansa... :-(

TBF, Sansa had no idea, she was just a preteen girl "in love" (crushing) over a prince, like a modern day preteen over a pop star. Ned never really explained things to her; he spent more time trying to explain things to Arya (his favourite?), and then apparently once again indulging her (the "dancing lessons" with Syrio Forel - while Sansa was left with stupid, drunken Septa Mordane, whom she didn't like). Sansa felt left out, and turned to the Queen (Cersei), who had alway been friendly to her. Sansa was almost too easy for Cersei to manipulate.

As to playing the game of thrones... Sansa was as bad as Ned in Book 1, but she's been learning...

[El Guapo]

51 minutes ago, frenin said:

That may be the worst take of all of them.

He was betrayed, i don't think that makes him especially a lousy political player.

 

Sansa so far has not been a player un the game, only a pawn.

 

Honestly, the only reason why Cersei won and Ned is stupid is because Petyr chose to betray Ned, Cersei didn't even seek the man, had that not happened, no amount of Strongwine or Hounds would've saved the Lannisters in King's Landing.

Seriously?  I don't even think it is a debatable point.  The man was a political dunce. Great guy, yes.  But a complete dunce when it came to politics

[frenin]

1 hour ago, El Guapo said:

  I don't even think it is a debatable point

Neither do i.

 

1 hour ago, El Guapo said:

The man was a political dunce.

Which is straight up false.

 

1 hour ago, El Guapo said:

But a complete dunce when it came to politics

 

Quote

For a brief moment, Ned considered telling him all of it, but there was something in Littlefinger’s japes that irked him. The man was too clever by half, a mocking smile never far from his lips. “Jon Arryn was studying this volume when he was taken sick,” Ned said in a careful tone, to see how he might respond. And he responded as he always did: with a quip. “In that case,” he said, “death must have come as a blessed relief.” Lord Petyr Baelish bowed and took his leave. Eddard Stark allowed himself a curse. Aside from his own retainers, there was scarcely a man in this city he trusted. Littlefinger had concealed Catelyn and helped Ned in his inquiries, yet his haste to save his own skin when Jaime and his swords had come out of the rain still rankled. Varys was worse. For all his protestations of loyalty, the eunuch knew too much and did too little. Grand Maester Pycelle seemed more Cersei’s creature with every passing day, and Ser Barristan was an old man, and rigid. He would tell Ned to do his duty. Time was perilously short. The king would return from his hunt soon, and honor would require Ned to go to him with all he had learned. Vayon Poole had arranged for Sansa and Arya to sail on the Wind Witch out of Braavos, three days hence. They would be back at Winterfell before the harvest. Ned could no longer use his concern for their safety to excuse his delay.

 

A man that don't know about politics.

[The hairy bear]

1 hour ago, talvikorppi said:

So, I'm wondering if Cersei sent messages, took a more active stance than merely wishing drunkeness while hunting would kill her husband?

I'm not sure what you are suggesting here. That Cersei had a plan B? I don't see Lancel with the bravery or capacity to attempt a direct regicide.

51 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

The man was a political dunce. Great guy, yes.  But a complete dunce when it came to politics

I disagree. Ned certainly was a fish out of water in the viper nest that was King's Landing during king Robert's reign. Of course he was. But that's not a measure of how much "dunce" or "stupid" is anyone.

In the two months that he was in the capital, he exerted a clearly positive influence to the king and managed to unveil a secret that many people at court had missed for more than a decade. He rightly mistrusted everyone else at court, and got a fairly good assessment of the main players.  He was cautious in all his proceedings and kept his investigations private. He even understood the need to bribe the City Watch to support him.

Any average courtier from the South would fare much worse than Ned if he was suddenly thrown amidst Northern politics.

[talvikorppi]

36 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

I'm not sure what you are suggesting here. That Cersei had a plan B? I don't see Lancel with the bravery or capacity to attempt a direct regicide.

I'm not sure either. I just thought I'd put it out there. Cersei's bad half-arsed plan... that suddenly worked just when she needed it to.

Either it's GRRM's plot convenience or somebody (not the hapless Lancel) made sure Rober died after Ned confronted Cersei.

I don't want to get all tinfoil, but it was mighty good for Cersei - who knows how to seize an opportunity.

[Springwatch]

5 hours ago, talvikorppi said:

Well, she beat Ned, there's that... :-D

But how easy was it to beat someone who was NOT playing the game of thrones, like honourable dead Ned?

That Cersei's half-arsed scheme of killing Robert (on a hunting trip by having Lancel get him even more drunk than usual in the hope of a hunting accident) actually worked out just in time it needed to was pure luck... Or was it?

Ned gave his ultimatum to Cersei while Robert was away hunting. Lo and behold! Soon after, the king had a hunting accident! Official story: the king was drunk, tragic accident. Honourable witness Ser Barristan Selmy the befuddled confirms. - So, I'm wondering if Cersei sent messages, took a more active stance than merely wishing drunkeness while hunting would kill her husband?

Good point. Varys seems to think so: "A hunter lives a perilous life. If the boar had not done for Robert, it would have been a fall from a horse, the bite of a wood adder, an arrow gone astray... the forest is the abattoir of the gods. It was not wine that killed the king. It was your mercy."

5 hours ago, talvikorppi said:

We'll never know. It's probably just a writer's convenience by GRRM to advance the story he wants to tell, i.e. what happens after King Robert dies - the point of the first book. Or more precisely, what happens after the father figure (Ned) dies and the children (the Stark kids) are scattered and having to fend for themselves before they are ready.

So the minutiae of Cersei killing of Robert don't really matter.

But as to the game of thrones, Cersei sure beat the non-player Ned.

Cersei should have been treated with more respect by other players, shouldn't she? She has abilities - she won everything on her wish list. But Jaime says she wanted power, but had no idea what to do with it, which is probably true.

[Springwatch]

4 hours ago, talvikorppi said:

The details that enabled the Lannister soldiers to go down to the harbour, find the ship Ned had contracted, and find Ned's letter to Stannis, which proved his and Stannis's "treason". Oh, Sansa... :-(

This is new; I never heard this one before. But no - mainly because of his speech before the Iron Throne and court:

Quote

If she was so determined to force the issue, here and now, she left him no choice. "Your son has no claim to the throne he sits. Lord Stannis is Robert's true heir."

That is the content of the letter.

[frenin]

2 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Good point. Varys seems to think so: "A hunter lives a perilous life. If the boar had not done for Robert, it would have been a fall from a horse, the bite of a wood adder, an arrow gone astray... the forest is the abattoir of the gods. It was not wine that killed the king. It was your mercy."

Varys is shamelessly lying in order to guilt trip Ned into confessing treason. Cersei had no plan B, that's seen when Ned enters in the chamber of Robert's deathbed and this is all she does.

 

Quote

Quote

“For the feast,” Robert whispered. “Now leave us. The lot of you. I need to speak with Ned.” “Robert, my sweet lord …” Cersei began. “I said leave,” Robert insisted with a hint of his old fierceness. “What part of that don’t you understand, woman?” Cersei gathered up her skirts and her dignity and led the way to the door. Lord Renly and the others followed. Grand Maester Pycelle lingered, his hands shaking as he offered the king a cup of thick white liquid. “The milk of the poppy, Your Grace,” he said. “Drink. For your pain.” Robert knocked the cup away with the back of his hand. “Away with you. I’ll sleep soon enough, old fool. Get out.” Grand Maester Pycelle gave Ned a stricken look as he shuffled from the room.

 

Even then, had Ned found the courage to tell Robert the truth in front of everyone... It would've been Cersei's ruin.

 

 

6 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

She has abilities - she won everything on her wish list. But

I'd said, that other people won it for her. The moment she starts her own quest, without no Littlefinger that holds her and no Ned that takes piety on her children, she falls apart.

That without saying that the Strongwine plan is the greatest hail mary in the books.

 

4 hours ago, talvikorppi said:

The details that enabled the Lannister soldiers to go down to the harbour, find the ship Ned had contracted, and find Ned's letter to Stannis, which proved his and Stannis's "treason". Oh, Sansa... :-(

Hmm, the King had died, only force would settle the issue, Sansa had no part on Ned's downfall, Ned himself made the rope and put it on her neck 

[Springwatch]

10 minutes ago, frenin said:

Varys is shamelessly lying in order to guilt trip Ned into confessing treason. Cersei had no plan B, that's seen when Ned enters in the chamber of Robert's deathbed and this is all she does.

Even then, had Ned found the courage to tell Robert the truth in front of everyone... It would've been Cersei's ruin.

Agree, she was lucky. But also she was unlucky - because the wound would have killed anyone but Robert much earlier. As for Plan B - I think poison was Cersei's Plan A and Plan B. The first poison was alcohol, followed up with medical treatment that would kill him. Pycelle was Cersei's creature. But Robert resisted Pycelle's potions - so yes, Cersei nearly lost it here.

10 minutes ago, frenin said:

I'd said, that other people won it for her. The moment she starts her own quest, without no Littlefinger that holds her and no Ned that takes piety on her children, she falls apart.

Yes she had help. Winning over people is a very useful ability, and she has it ('She charms them all' observes Sansa). Littlefinger seems to have come on board late. (?) Varys must choose the winning side (but he probably spotted Ned's downfall a mile off). But also she has an inbuilt drive to seek out sources of power - the wildfire was her original idea; her intelligence network gets respect even from Varys; and she won the Kettleblacks away from Tyrion and LF (before losing them again to the the High Sparrow).

10 minutes ago, frenin said:

That without saying that the Strongwine plan is the greatest hail mary in the books.

Yes. Brilliant if it works though. The King did it to himself, everyone saw. The perfect crime. Shame about Lancel.

10 minutes ago, frenin said:

Hmm, the King had died, only force would settle the issue, Sansa had no part on Ned's downfall, Ned himself made the rope and put it on her neck 

[frenin]

15 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Agree, she was lucky. But also she was unlucky - because the wound would have killed anyone but Robert much earlier. As for Plan B - I think poison was Cersei's Plan A and Plan B. The first poison was alcohol, followed up with medical treatment that would kill him. Pycelle was Cersei's creature. But Robert resisted Pycelle's potions - so yes, Cersei nearly lost it here.

I don't know how unlucky she is, I mean, she knows Robert and knows how big and strong he is. 

I doubt that poison would have really prevented Robert from getting the truth anyway.

 

 

17 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Yes she had help. Winning over people is a very useful ability, and she has it

And who does she charm exactly?? The only one i can think of is an overly malleable Lancel. And Pycelle has been a toadie of her House since before she was born.

The ones who actually got her out alive were Eddard and Petyr, and she certainly did not charm them. 

LF chose to save her life, and her House, in order to get Eddard killed and the war started and Ned chose to spare her children's life.

 

20 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

But also she has an inbuilt drive to seek out sources of power - the wildfire was her original idea;

That would have likely ended with King's Landing. She ordered the wildfire casks to be made, but anything but Tyrion's idea would've likely ended up in disaster.

 

21 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

her intelligence network gets respect even from Varys;

And where is that Network in AFFC??

It seems to me that our good Varys was overrating Cersei in front of Ned to get him paranoid.

 

23 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Yes. Brilliant if it works though. The King did it to himself, everyone saw. The perfect crime. Shame about Lancel.

I would not call it brilliant but incredibly lucky. But truth be told, most of the most brilliant moves are also the luckiest of them all. So, props to her.