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Alyn Oakenfist

Who's the stupidest player in the Game of Thrones?

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6 hours ago, Sigella said:

Ned could have beaten Cersei if he had just told Robert what was up before he died.

Yeah.

But Ned thought about the children (Joff, Myrcella, Tommen). Ned who is known for being against the killing of children, and he was afraid Bobby B would kill those children - Ned says as much to Cersei.

Ned wasn't in the game of thrones, it didn't matter to him. What mattered was protecting children... One child in particular.

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Mostly I think, and I think the author invites us to think about concepts like "game of thrones" - pursuit of power and glory, and whoever "wins" - is a futile question. So is the who's the "hero" (Azor Ahai reborn, the Last Hero etc.) question. It does not matter.

What matters is the human heart in conflict with itself. Stripped of all the stories, legends, all the character arcs, the core story is about humanity, looking at ourselves. Seeing, regonizing the Dany, Jon, Sansa, Arya, Tyrion, Jaime, Tywin, Cersei, Doran, Quentyn, etc. etc. within ourselves. They're grey, we're grey.

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2 hours ago, talvikorppi said:

Yeah.

But Ned thought about the children (Joff, Myrcella, Tommen). Ned who is known for being against the killing of children, and he was afraid Bobby B would kill those children - Ned says as much to Cersei.

Ned wasn't in the game of thrones, it didn't matter to him. What mattered was protecting children... One child in particular.

Ned didn't wan't to contribute to the murder of children and refrained from spilling the beans in order to give Cersei some time to get them away before the hunt.

After the accident he refrained because he didn't wan't to "soil" Roberts last hours with it.

I think Ned in way did play the game because Jon was born into it without a possible chance to ever win and Ned couldn't let him die.

1 hour ago, talvikorppi said:

Mostly I think, and I think the author invites us to think about concepts like "game of thrones" - pursuit of power and glory, and whoever "wins" - is a futile question. So is the who's the "hero" (Azor Ahai reborn, the Last Hero etc.) question. It does not matter.

 I don't think it's a futile question. It's made pretty clear what it takes to play and which character traits serves well in both long and short term. Tywin was utterly ruthless and fully capable of backstabbing and scheming which was good for acquiring power but not so much for pr, and on top of that he sucked so bad at teambuilding that he got killed in-team.

Jon and Dany has tried to be honourable and utilitarian to the point of being murdered/having to escape their own subjects oth.

 

Anyway, the game is fascinating and I do not think it's right to reduce it into some supposed lesson. The game is not much younger than the human race, we've almost always had it in all societies. It's universally human; whether its an actual dude sitting on his ancestors throne (won in wars fought hundreds of years ago) or another one spending millions to air commercials defaming their opponent before the election (or just poisoning them), and it has a big impact on what the world is/becomes. It's dramatically thankful because of the knives edge implications different kinds of people will make of it if they against all odds doesn't die trying.

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Rhaegar has to be around the top of the list. Running off with a LP daughter, who suppose to marry another LP and your wife is the sister of the Prince of Dorne. That's just asking for trouble.

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On 10/6/2020 at 5:38 PM, Daena the Defiant said:

Cersei played a winning hand into getting herself imprisoned, shaved and marched through the streets naked, She toxified a key military alliance keeping her son enthroned, and activated an army of religious zealots on a purification campaign.  Also, is currently kicking out another support from her ruling coalition by trying to break a marital alliance with Dorne.  

Nicely put. Don’t forgot telling the Iron Bank to “fuck off.” The list goes on. 

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On 10/6/2020 at 3:57 PM, El Guapo said:

Eddard Stark by far

Worst player and worst position arent the same thing. 

 

Eddard was in a city where he had few allies and was surrounded by enemies. 

Renly is by far the worst player as he had the best position to win and failed miserably .

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12 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

He also invades huge swamp and another very poor areas when Tywin has taken about 40 k men to Riverlands and so left major city Lannisport and very rich Westerlands almost without any defenders. Or raiding Westerlands should have been much more profitable investment than invading much poorer North.

Yeah, when we compare him to what Euron has done, in far less time, becomes even easier to see how dumb Balon was. 

I just imagine what other characters like Asha, Euron or Victarion would have done if they got the offer Robb gave him.

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1 hour ago, dsjj251 said:

Renly is by far the worst player as he had the best position to win and failed miserably .

Not really fair, what killed Renly wasn't a mistake in the game but magic/plot device. He is not as good as some people make him to be, but he was not even close to worst, if Ned had listened to him he would be alive.

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On 10/7/2020 at 1:43 PM, Loose Bolt said:

My candidate for Darwin's Award is a dude who went into Red Keep telling anyone that he is going to kill crown prince. After all it would be almost impossible to make any worse move in game of thrones.

Well, there is this guy who turns up at a fortress run by a cult who like burning royalty alive for magical reasons, and introduces himself as Gerrick Kingsblood...

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I really don't get why people keep bringing up Sansa. To me she has always been a tool of Littlefinger, not a player herself.

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14 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

Renly is by far the worst player as he had the best position to win and failed miserably .

renly was slain with magic, it was impossible to foresee or counteract such assault

the conversation they had in the red keep, when robert was dying, shows renly was much more aware of the seriousness of the situation and rules of the game

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Posted (edited)
On 10/8/2020 at 12:49 AM, frenin said:

Then, I'm convinced.

She sure as hell can, your examples are bad tho.

She tries to be charming with Ned, It backfires, or isn't that clear from the text??

It's a reasonable conclusion. But my point of view is that things like charm, charisma and beauty are treated in exaggerated way in these books. Charisma on steroids gives young Robert the love of armies and even his enemies;  his son Edric has plenty of otherwise sane people willing to die for him (I mean, nice kid, but). So when normally shrewd men (Kraznys, Ned) do incredibly stupid things that benefit lovely, charming women, I think ok, maybe this is Beauty++. Just a thought.

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Not from the get go, while she was under Tywin's belt, they still distrusted her.

There was no jockeying for power at that stage - the Tyrells were collecting their rewards for saving KL. Cersei had to smile and accept it, but she never liked them and didn't care if they knew it.

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What has that to do with anything??

Sure, that's not to say that most people follow her blindly. And being charming and being beatiful aren't the same thing, even if it's easier to be the first if you're the second.

Yes, and sexy is a third, separate though related thing.

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On wildfire?? Yes, in its uses in Warfare?? I'm not so sure. 

Cersei went to it because it was destructive, she did not know how to properly use it.

Tyrion did not develop a new wildfire weapon. 

I mean, isn't his idea??  Did Cersei knew how to use it??

When has Cersei shown being capable at Warfare??

Wildfire is a very potent weapon, and not much use for anything else (too dangerous, too difficult to make) - so I reckon it's been a weapon since its invention. Pyromancy is fire magic, and wildfire is made with spells. Pyromancers are the experts.

I like Cersei for leaving it to the experts. It feels real. Built-in brilliance like Dany and Tyrion have (better at warfare than their generals; better at fire magic than Mirri/pyromancers) - it just bores me a little. Maybe just put it down to Brilliance++.

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Not knowing who the brothers of one of Westeros's Great Lords are is not good.

Well no-one in the Small Council knew, so I guess it wasn't at the top of anyone's file. Besides Cersei moved swiftly on before even asking the question.

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And the latter is Pycelle the one that does it.

Qyburn! Though Pycelle also gave some good advice to Cersei.

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Did not say so.  Excellent, however,  is a overstatement.

Varys is way beyond excellent; Varys is a wizard of intelligence; and had the little birds. Let's say Qyburn will be excellent when he settles in.

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She must have the very worst then. Since she's most of the time clueless.

Cersei was not really listening at this period; the raw material was probably as good as ever.

Edited by Springwatch
Word

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On 10/8/2020 at 6:49 PM, talvikorppi said:

Anyway, Sansa didn't knowingly betray her family, but we have to face the truth: her going to Cersei and revealing the plan to take ship allowed Cersei to seize the ship and find the letter, Ned's letter to Stannis, that proved Ned's "treason".

My previous answer still stands.

You think it must have been this way, because Sansa's guilt is self-evident, and somewhere, somehow there must be a way she did it.

I've been studying Sansa's 'guilt' for a little while, in the books and the forum. It's a phantom; it's a trick, a troll, a game the author is playing with us. The narrative force goes one way, and the evidence goes the other.

Narrative wins, of course.

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I don't know why people think Sansa is even a player yet. She's 12. It's kind of unreasonable to expect a 12 year old to be any kind of player. One might call it grasping at straws.

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20 hours ago, Foot_Of_The_King said:

Nicely put. Don’t forgot telling the Iron Bank to “fuck off.” The list goes on. 

Yes. An excellent addition to Cersei's hit parade,

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So many people gave Ned good offers and advice (Renly, Littlefinger, Varys, Cersei) but he refused them all like the stuck up dumbass he is.

Edited by R2D

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Oberyn Martell was good in combat but terrible when it comes to playing the game.  The worst player to me is the guy who had victory in his grasp and lost it because of something stupid. 

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