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Who's the stupidest player in the Game of Thrones?

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On 10/8/2020 at 4:19 PM, Barbrey Dustin said:

Sansa is the dumbest player in the game of thrones.  Robb is right up there too.

Sansa is a child.

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On 10/7/2020 at 10:42 PM, TedBear said:

don't really see her staying with Euron, it looks like they'll be enemies, he'll probably steal a dragon from her and she certainly won't see it as attractive,

Which reminds me - Quentyn and his mates, making sure that the whole of Planky Town and by extension, Dorne, knew his secret mission before he left. Then ensuring every captain and dockside worker in the free cities know that there are highborn Dornishmen pretending in their ridiculous Dornish drawl to be wine merchants, heading for Meereen. Notice how the innkeep at the Merchant's House bullies him into taking his cousin's hathay when his personal inclination is for walking and a merchant of westeros would not have his servants ride with him. We can be sure the "cousin" reported everything they did and said to the widow of the waterfront before nightfall.

Also, double cross the sellswords (Daario as well as the Tattered Prince), attend Dany's wedding (to someone else). Stick around while there is a poisoning plot, steal a dragon/release the dragons, to create a diversion while Barristan stages a palace coup. (As much a pawn as Barry, but harming and alienating more people) and burning himself to death in the process.

He was a pawn in his father's unfathomable subtle plan, which will start a civil war against Dorne if the Iron Throne finds out from some hot headed war-mongerer like Obara, if they spill the beans to Cersei and Mace before Prince Quentyn and his first wife Princess Daenarys descend on the Red Keep with dragonfire, using that and Aerys' and Cersei's wildfire to completely destroy her "home" and "birthright", so Quentyn can rule the Seven Kingdoms and Arianne, Dorne.

Arianne, who only knows the children she played with in the water gardens, their families and her cousins. Who still doesn't realise that Tyene tipped Doran off to the plot to crown Myrcella. Arianne who did not notice she was telling Doran all she knew and everyone she plotted with, because she had been bored by her own company in the tower. Arianne who proposed to frame Darkstar for the downward slice of Ser Arys' sword that took Myrcella's ear off. Darkstar with his distinctive Targaryen features and no doubt linage. That seems like another great Dornish play in the Game of Thrones.

Arianne, who is not bothered if her younger brother sits the Iron Throne and patrilinial descent continues to be applied in the Seven Kingdoms, as long as daddy gives her the rule of Dorne ahead of her brothers.

But then, Dorne appears to have been losing the game of thrones for centuries. Elia and the babes,  Daeron I devestating Dorne, and Dorne refusing the peace offered by Baelor, waiting 38 years before capitulating to Daeron II and suffering uneasy truce, with lawless marches and Vulture Kings in the Red Mountains, and only grudging acceptance, in spite of marrying into the Dragonlords.

The sandsnakes carry on the honoured Dornish tradition of failing at the Game of Thrones, even when they seem to be winning. Given what we have learnt of them already, I shudder to think of what Lady Nym will do if she takes her seat on Cersei's small council. 

Cersei seems to have been aided by poisoners  - remember the stench of Robert's bandages and the rapid decay of his belly? Poison.

Wayward Joffrey dies of poison when he was beyond his mother's control - but it is a different type of poison. 

Tywin, nominally killed by a crossbow weilded by his son in a situation that had been set up by Varys (told him about Tysha and how to get to his father's chambers, having just smuggled Shae in to try to use her assets to get her assets back, the ones that were in the chest that Tyrion climbed up on to get the crossbow that was conveniently hung above it, after Jamie had decided to come clean about Tysha just after Varys had given him the keys and the rescue plan. Tywin was already griped up with a belly of stinking shit when the arrow went into it, and the rapid decay and stench of his corpse? Poison.

Ser Kevan, the next true challenger to Cersei's rule, died of knives and Varys' arrow, not poison, but before that, after Tyrion pointed out to him that a coin is deadly in the right hands ( meaning Littlefinger's hands), Kevan realised Lancel was being poisoned, seemingly every time Cersei visited. His son had an ally in the High Septon that Cersei had her Kettleblack lover smother with a pillow (strangely, Osney is more concerned for the state of his soul if he lies to a High Septon, than if he murders one). 

Tyrion thought Cersei was poisoning Lancel and attempting to kill himself, but Tyrion thought that Cersei had ordered the death of Barra and Gendry, and Eddard. It looks to me that all three were arranged by Littlefinger in Cersei's name but without her knowledge.

The murder of the four gaolers (who may well have drunk poison before the Lannister guards) is also blamed on Cersei, but these had been drinking wine before they were slain, and the stench of their remains is remarked on by Jaime, who bears smells well and does't heed faint smells. 

Rugen's overflowing privy might disguise or rationalise other smells (eg. Signs that the sewers were used for his escape. Or signs that someone with a gut full of poison that smelt like a privy had lain there, perhaps died there.)

Oberyn reminds us that, if Cersei had not blamed Tyrion for the poisoning of Joffrey, the blame would naturally have fallen on the Red Viper. And if the Red Viper had not championed Tyrion, would the hard drinking, poppy-quaffing, migraine-prone Ser Gregor not suffer from slow-acting poison?

While it is possible that some hopelessly convoluted and ineffectual plot of the Red Viper is behind all these poisonings (and Hoster Tully's death as well, why not), it seems unlikely.

Lady Nym names Tyene as her hidden dagger, and Tyene names Oberyn as Gregor's poisoner, boasting to a man who seems as fond of strongwine and poppy as Gregor ever was, and in as slow an "exquisite agony".

Tyene plans to have Myrcella crowned and the Lannisters descend on Dorne, where they can kill them in the passes. Nym's plan was to kill Tywin, Cersei, Jaime, and Tommen.

Cersei herself does not seem to me to have used or ordered the use of poison ever. She was given laxatives by Tyrion. Her swollen tongue, shrinking gowns and dizziness are probably signs that she is being slowly poisoned. But the death plots she claims credit for/ overtly unstigated (ie. King Robert, the High Septon, Mellaria Heatherspoon, Bronn) were not poisoning plots.

It seems to me that a lot of people who would have supplanted her rule as Regent have died from poison just when they became an obstacle to her rise. There is at least one poisoner who really would rather Cersei was Regent, and that is why she is still there after Jon Arryn, King Robert, Joffery, Tywin, Kevan are dead, and Tyrion exiled. 

She has a guardian angel, not dumb luck.

.

Edited by Walda

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15 hours ago, Springwatch said:

It's a reasonable conclusion. But my point of view is that things like charm, charisma and beauty are treated in exaggerated way in these books. Charisma on steroids gives young Robert the love of armies and even his enemies;  his son Edric has plenty of otherwise sane people willing to die for him (I mean, nice kid, but). So when normally shrewd men (Kraznys, Ned) do incredibly stupid things that benefit lovely, charming women, I think ok, maybe this is Beauty++. Just a thought.

We know why Ned did what he did and it has little to do with how lovely and beatiful Cersei was.

 

 

Quote

Time was perilously short. The king would return from his hunt soon, and honor would require Ned to go to him with all he had learned. Vayon Poole had arranged for Sansa and Arya to sail on the Wind Witch out of Braavos, three days hence. They would be back at Winterfell before the harvest. Ned could no longer use his concern for their safety to excuse his delay. Yet, last night he had dreamt of Rhaegar’s children. Lord Tywin had laid the bodies beneath the Iron Throne, wrapped in the crimson cloaks of his house guard. That was clever of him; the blood did not show so badly against the red cloth. The little princess had been barefoot, still dressed in her bed gown, and the boy … the boy … Ned could not let that happen again. The realm could not withstand a second mad king, another dance of blood and vengeance. He must find some way to save the children. Robert could be merciful. Ser Barristan was scarcely the only man he had pardoned. Grand Maester Pycelle, Varys the Spider, Lord Balon Greyjoy; each had been counted an enemy to Robert once, and each had been welcomed into friendship and allowed to retain honors and office for a pledge of fealty. So long as a man was brave and honest, Robert would treat him with all the honor and respect due a valiant enemy. This was something else: poison in the dark, a knife thrust to the soul. This he could never forgive, no more than he had forgiven Rhaegar. He will kill them all, Ned realized.

 

The only thing that saved Cersei was mercy, simple as that, she could look like Brienne and Ned would've done the exact thing.

 

 

 

15 hours ago, Springwatch said:

There was no jockeying for power at that stage - the Tyrells were collecting their rewards for saving KL. Cersei had to smile and accept it, but she never liked them and didn't care if they knew it.

She only lashed out in the Lannister privy meetingsand she did care if they knew it as she does now.

 

 

15 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Wildfire is a very potent weapon, and not much use for anything else (too dangerous, too difficult to make) - so I reckon it's been a weapon since its invention. Pyromancy is fire magic, and wildfire is made with spells. Pyromancers are the experts.

I like Cersei for leaving it to the experts. It feels real. Built-in brilliance like Dany and Tyrion have (better at warfare than their generals; better at fire magic than Mirri/pyromancers) - it just bores me a little. Maybe just put it down to Brilliance++.

Wildfire was used in Winter by Aerys to heat the Red Keep...

Pyromancers know how to make it, not so much about how to properly use it in warfare setting, those two skills are simply not related with teach other.

So that was always going to be a disaster.

 

 

16 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Well no-one in the Small Council knew, so I guess it wasn't at the top of anyone's file. Besides Cersei moved swiftly on before even asking the question.

And what's Cersei's council but a bunch of fools, incompetents and bootlickers??

 

 

16 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Qyburn! Though Pycelle also gave some good advice to Cersei.

Pycelle.

 

Quote

Grand Maester Pycelle’s lips were still quivering, yet somehow he found his tongue. “As you command. Prince Doran has taken his brother’s unruly bastards into custody, yet Sunspear still seethes. The prince writes that he cannot hope to calm the waters until he receives the justice that was promised him.”

 

 

16 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Cersei was not really listening at this period; the raw material was probably as good as ever.

Listening to whom??  Where do we see those informants?? The only we get to see, and  she parades the proudly, are Taena and Qyburn.

 

 

12 hours ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

Cat

Sansa

Eddard

Ignoring the Cat and Ned's bit, how is an eleven year who never wanted nor consciously played the game until 3 years later... A stupid player??

 

 

11 hours ago, R2D said:

So many people gave Ned good offers and advice (Renly, Littlefinger, Varys, Cersei) but he refused them all like the stuck up dumbass he is.

The only one who really gave Ned a good advice and offer and Ned was silly to ignore was Renly, neither Varys's, nor Petyr's, nor Cersei's offers and advices were either true or good.

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The problem is that succeeding at The Game of Thrones is like succeeding when you play Diplomacy (an immensely enjoyable game, by the way).  You need excellent interpersonal skills, combined with the morals of a sociopath.  In a board game, it's fine to display the morals of a sociopath.  In real life, not so much.

So, when people say that Ned was a fool, I'd reply that I'd rather go to my grave, knowing that I had done my utmost to save the lives of innocents, than to spend the rest of my life knowing that I had done the opposite.

And, the story is not finished.  The wise cannot know all ends.  Perhaps in the end, the pity of Ned Stark may rule the fate of millions.

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@freninwhy is her 9 year old sister smarter and a better player? Please fuck outta here. If Sansa didn’t run to Cersei and spoil Ned’s plans to have her and Arya sent back to Winterfell perhaps we would be reading a different story. Sansa is a child i give you that so we should expect childish behavior but she is a fucking moron thanks to her lovely parentage (Mostly Cat’s stupidity)

Dany would be next on my list. 

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58 minutes ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

If Sansa didn’t run to Cersei and spoil Ned’s plans to have her and Arya sent back to Winterfell perhaps we would be reading a different story.

Eddard told Cersei in the Godswood that he was going to act against her if she was not gone when Robert returned.

Littlefinger told Cersei that Eddard had asked him to bribe the City Watch to seize the throne from the Lannisters once Robert died.

Can you tell me how in the Seven Hells Sansa going to Cersei with actually no piece of information that she didn't already knew changed anything?

I get that many of you have this irrational hatred towards Sansa that compels you to trash her (and her mother) at any possible chance. Even in a thread discussing about political actors. But let's be a little bit reasonable, please.

Edited by The hairy bear

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8 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

Eddard told Cersei in the Godswood that he was going to act against her if she was not gone when Robert returned.

Littlefinger told Cersei that Eddard had asked him to bribe the City Watch to seize the throne from the Lannisters once Robert died.

Can you tell me how in the Seven Hells Sansa going to Cersei with actually no piece of information that she didn't already knew changed anything?

I get that many of you have this irrational hatred towards Sansa that compels you to trash her (and her mother) at any possible chance. Even in a thread discussing about political actors. But let's be a little bit reasonable, please.

Grrm says Sansa tattling played a part in Ned's downfall.

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2 hours ago, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

well she made her bid to be Queen and everyone around her died.  so she was a player just unwittingly so. 

What bid was that?? She didn't want to leave King's Landing and went to the Queen so she could convince her father's best friend because she was terrified of Robert.

 

And how is that everyone died because of her?? Where's the correlation??

 

 

1 hour ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

freninwhy is her 9 year old sister smarter and a better player?

She really isn't. Arya would've gotten herself killed longtime ago had she the one remaining in KL.

Sansa would've also been dead longtime ago if she ever was to take the road. Their abilities and strenghts are completely different.

 

1 hour ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

Please fuck outta here.

Hmmmmm k.

 

 

1 hour ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

If Sansa didn’t run to Cersei and spoil Ned’s plans to have her and Arya sent back to Winterfell perhaps we would be reading a different story.

Sure, one in which maybe Sansa and Arya are sent to Winterfell, or get killed along the way, or by the Ironborn or...

What we sure as hell wouldn't be reading is one story in which Ned came out of that mess alive, since Sansa had nothing to do with his fall.

 

 

1 hour ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

Sansa is a child i give you that so we should expect childish behavior but she is a fucking moron thanks to her lovely parentage (Mostly Cat’s stupidity)

How is she a moron when no one ever told her about any danger?? 

 

1 hour ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

Dany would be next on my list. 

Another absurd take.

 

 

1 hour ago, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

so is Joffrey

Is Sansa a Queen or had she ever had the kind of power Joffrey held?? If the answer to those questions is no, yours is just an absurd false comparative.

 

 

51 minutes ago, R2D said:

Grrm says Sansa tattling played a part in Ned's downfall.

And yet what he wrote leaves room for options. Unless he's talking about his downfall, him confessing treason, which one could concede but Ned was dead meat anyway.

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On 10/6/2020 at 3:51 PM, R2D said:

"Any man who must say 'I am the king' is no true king". 

And people call Renly naive. Stannis expected everyone to just flock to his banners because of his incest letters. Renly at least understood the reciprocal nature of kingship and made promises and offers to his vassals for their support.

Both Stannis and Renly share a booby prize here simply because they could have easily taken everything just by playing nicely together. Renly bends to Stannis and is unambiguously named Stannis's heir and Hand. A pleasant if unambitious marriage for Shireen becomes a part of the deal, tucking her away happily in some pleasant little castle someplace in the Reach. Stannis handles the military decisions while Renly handles the politics. Renly's political marriage to the Tyrells is likely intact, Melisandre's insistence that Stannis must be King and the mythic implications thereof is obeyed. This solves every single problem either of them has and their victory would have been easy.

To add to the blunder, the Stark's cause for rebellion was entirely personal, and a Stannis/Renly administration could have very likely brought them back in line just by handing over Joffrey, Cercei, Jaime and anyone else Rob demanded face Northern justice for Ned's execution (it helps that they would likely have Sansa in their care as well). Tyrion would likely be tried again by the Starks for Bran's attempted assassination and executed for it: trial by combat isn't an option in the North, and Rob wouldn't likely care about the legitimacy of the Southron trial that already exonerated him.

The Greyjoys joined the war late in our timeline anyway, so if the Baratheon Boys can wrap the war up as quickly as it seems like they could, Balon probably wouldn't even declare in the first place. The Martel apparent primary motive, justice for Elia, is easily accomplished once the Lannisters fall from power. It would cost the Baratheons nothing to hand over the Mountain to the Martels for trial. Tywin likely keeps his life and his title even if the Mountain claims Tywin gave the order while being tortured. But of course with all his heirs dead and nobody on the throne with any loyalty to him, his power would be greatly diminished and his later years would be filled with loneliness and hatred. Maybe Oberyn manages to poison him at some point, or maybe he dies of natural causes, but either way Kevan and/or Lancel eventually inherits the Rock.

The war behind them and reasonably short, the Seven Kingdoms could prepare for winter properly. Melisandre at the King's ear would recognize the threat beyond the Wall and the crown would support the Watch with coin, supplies, and men enough to occupy every castle. Stannis could leave the Iron Throne to Renly's capable hands as he rides North to lead the Watch himself as Melisandre would doubtless encourage him to do.

In all, a much better end for Westeros. But we don't get that end because neither Renly nor Stannis could be bothered to compromise with the other. Sad, really.

Edited by Damon_Tor

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2 hours ago, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

so is Joffrey

Correction. Was. Valar Morghulis. Even slime like him included. Arya's wishlist is going to be fulfilled. 

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1 hour ago, frenin said:

 What bid was that?? She didn't want to leave King's Landing and went to the Queen so she could convince her father's best friend because she was terrified of Robert.

 

And how is that everyone died because of her?? Where's the correlation??

ratting out her family in king's landing greatly contributed to Cercie's ability to prevent their escape and in the process slaughter the Stark household guards. Sansa herself becomes a prisoner of the war after giving Cercie her contributions.

being terrified of Robert is a stupid excuse. it still doesn't change what she did. 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

How is she a moron when no one ever told her about any danger?? 

Ned told them about the danger and that is why he was sending them back to Winterfell. he also instructed too hkeep their departutre a secret. a secret which Sansa spoiled. 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Is Sansa a Queen or had she ever had the kind of power Joffrey held?? If the answer to those questions is no, yours is just an absurd false comparative.

she does not have to be a queen to play the game of thrones. she had great influence on the events that transpired which include again her own captivity, the Arrest of Ned, her sister's near capture etc. the position in King's kllanding really was Queenship which is why she did not want to leave. she made her play with Cercie and was promptly arrested. then she begged the king and Ned lost his head. then she is disinherited by Robb after being married to the imp after she foiled her own getaways with the hound, or the Tyrells.  instead of usingh her position she is just a bimboheaded pawn. - no worries that makes her interesting.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

And yet what he wrote leaves room for options. Unless he's talking about his downfall, him confessing treason, which one could concede but Ned was dead meat anyway.

had his daughter's escaped, there would be little to coerce him to falsely confess with.  

1 hour ago, frenin said:

She really isn't. Arya would've gotten herself killed longtime ago had she the one remaining in KL.

Sansa would've also been dead longtime ago if she ever was to take the road. Their abilities and strenghts are completely different.

false, Arya is more adaptable than Sansa and has shown throughout the books that had the roles been reversed, Arya  would fall in line and would be just as valuable as Sansa. why because Sansa is the only Stark they have after Ned is killed, why could Arya be any different? 

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8 hours ago, SeanF said:

The problem is that succeeding at The Game of Thrones is like succeeding when you play Diplomacy (an immensely enjoyable game, by the way).  You need excellent interpersonal skills, combined with the morals of a sociopath.  In a board game, it's fine to display the morals of a sociopath.  In real life, not so much.

So, when people say that Ned was a fool, I'd reply that I'd rather go to my grave, knowing that I had done my utmost to save the lives of innocents, than to spend the rest of my life knowing that I had done the opposite.

And, the story is not finished.  The wise cannot know all ends.  Perhaps in the end, the pity of Ned Stark may rule the fate of millions.

Something as to the reason I have a soft spot for Joseph II Habsburg, who self-eulogized himself on his deathbed with "Here lies Joseph the Second, who failed in all that he undertook."

Things sure looked bad then, and you'd think his reputation was in the gutter, but guess who's state proved mind-bogglingly enduring and loyal on a popular level later when the French Revolutionaries/Imperials were marching across Europe for a generation.

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8 hours ago, SeanF said:

So, when people say that Ned was a fool, I'd reply that I'd rather go to my grave, knowing that I had done my utmost to save the lives of innocents, than to spend the rest of my life knowing that I had done the opposite.

 

I doubt that Ned would do it all over again, knowing that his stupidity cost his wife, son and his own life.

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I agree that Sansa isn't a player but a pawn to others. But I also agree that she is beyond moronic. The whole incident at Darry really should opened her eyes but she choose to ignore everything and remained a idiot by choice.

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2 hours ago, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

ratting out her family in king's landing greatly contributed to Cercie's ability to prevent their escape and in the process slaughter the Stark household guards. Sansa herself becomes a prisoner of the war after giving Cercie her contributions.

being terrified of Robert is a stupid excuse. it still doesn't change what she did. 

  • Yes, ratting out to Cersei contributed to them being trapped, they were trapped regardless.
  • Ned had a dozen few guards for the hundreds that Cersei could count on, unless stealth, which Ned rejected, or simply overwhelming the Lannisters via Gold Cloaks, which Petyr denies him. Cerseiwould always going to crush Ned.
  • How an eleven year being terrified of someone is a stupid excuse??  What part of she was eleven years old you don't understand??

 

2 hours ago, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

Ned told them about the danger and that is why he was sending them back to Winterfell. he also instructed too hkeep their departutre a secret. a secret which Sansa spoiled. 

Ned told them that they had to go and that they needed to trust him, the danger bit he shared it with Arya, Sansanever understood the stakes until it was too late.

 

2 hours ago, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

she does not have to be a queen to play the game of thrones. 

She does if you're going to compare her to Joffrey.

 

2 hours ago, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

she had great influence on the events that transpired which include again her own captivity, the Arrest of Ned, her sister's near capture etc.

A pawn is not a player, especially a 11 year old pawn and she had nothing to do with Ned's arrest. 

Unless Sansa magically convinced Littlefinger to support Cersei, it's simply absurd blame her for Ned's fate.

 

2 hours ago, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

the position in King's kllanding really was Queenship which is why she did not want to leave.

No, she fit in King's Landing, she had always wanted to be in a southron court, surrounded by knights, chivalry and pageantry and for her King's Landing was all that whereas Winterfell was the opposite.

 

 

2 hours ago, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

she made her play with Cercie and was promptly arrested. then she begged the king and Ned lost his head. then she is disinherited by Robb after being married to the imp after she foiled her own getaways with the hound, or the Tyrells.  instead of usingh her position she is just a bimboheaded pawn. - no worries that makes her interesting.

This really doesn't make sense, all i'm getting is that you really dislike Sansa.

 

 

2 hours ago, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

she made her play with Cercie and was promptly arrested. then she begged the king and Ned lost his head. then she is disinherited by Robb after being married to the imp after she foiled her own getaways with the hound, or the Tyrells.  instead of usingh her position she is just a bimboheaded pawn. - no worries that makes her interesting.

And that would have kept him alive how?? And you're assuming that his daughters would actually make it.

 

 

2 hours ago, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

false, Arya is more adaptable than Sansa and has shown throughout the books that had the roles been reversed, Arya  would fall in line and would be just as valuable as Sansa. why because Sansa is the only Stark they have after Ned is killed, why could Arya be any different? 

Arya is more adaptable than Sansa in the field, she's like fish out of the water in court and she would have gotten herself killed really fast, especially if she had to endure Joffrey.

Arya falling in line?? That's a good one.

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Sansa is in fact guilty of the most horrible crime of all... Sansa is guilty of being a naive adolescent girl. She has been tried and found guilty for being young and female. Her punishment will be to spend a year with a psychopath who wants to rape her, then another year with a pedophile who wants to rape her.

(In all seriousness though, I'm not trying to accuse anybody of anything. That is literally what happens to Sansa in the text.)

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1 minute ago, frenin said:
  • Yes, ratting out to Cersei contributed to them being trapped, they were trapped regardless.
  • Ned had a dozen few guards for the hundreds that Cersei could count on, unless stealth, which Ned rejected, or simply overwhelming the Lannisters via Gold Cloaks, which Petyr denies him. Cerseiwould always going to crush Ned.
  • How an eleven year being terrified of someone is a stupid excuse??  What part of she was eleven years old you don't understand??

they were not trapped regardless. the boat in which is daughters were supposed to leave on would and could have saved them had Sansa not intervened. Ned himswelf knew he was valuable as a hostage, and his intent was to stay while his family escaped.

ok so ned had fewer men.  doesn't mean his cause was lost just yet. stealth was getting his daughters out of KL. Sansa blew it.

age is no excuse for her actions. if people cannot excuse Joffery's cruelty because of age, Sansa should not get that privilege either.

7 minutes ago, frenin said:

Ned told them that they had to go and that they needed to trust him, the danger bit he shared it with Arya, Sansanever understood the stakes until it was too late.

  he told them both. 

Father’s mouth twitched strangely. “Sansa, I’m not sending you away for fighting,
though the gods know I’m sick of you two squabbling. I want you back in Winterfell for
your own safety. Three of my men were cut down like dogs not a league from where we
sit, and what does Robert do? He goes hunting.”

16 minutes ago, frenin said:

She does if you're going to compare her to Joffrey.

no, not really. Bran and theon were princes not kings. Catelyn, Peterfinger, Varys are all not Kings, yet they do the dance as well. Renly was a king only because Mace Tyrell had him crowned, Mace is just a High Lord. so yet Sansa is comparable.

20 minutes ago, frenin said:

pawn is not a player, especially a 11 year old pawn and she had nothing to do with Ned's arrest. 

Unless Sansa magically convinced Littlefinger to support Cersei, it's simply absurd blame her for Ned's fate.

oh yes that is correct. she became a pawn the moment she lost control. her self delusion made her think she was and she did. she meddllied into her fathers politicking and became a noble hostage.  her willful neglect of her fathers wishes for her own selfish desire is her playing the game of thrones. in Sansa's case she has the eye on a Queenship as Joffrey's consort. My mistake, her intervention prevents her own escape as she is locked up. she is in Lannister custody when Ned is betrayed. would Cercie be so bold had she not had Sansa in her pocket. maybe, maybe not. renly said it best he who controls the king controlled the kingdom. Sansa came to her willingly and then Cercie had a means to control Ned. 

23 minutes ago, frenin said:

This really doesn't make sense, all i'm getting is that you really dislike Sansa.

really? what doesn't make sense? her selfish desire led to her selfish actions that gave her a wish which was a poisoned apple. she got what she wanted at first. Stay in kings landing yet she loses everything. - i'm just being objective. she is guilty for some of the events that go down, no need to absolve her of it as she won't have any character growth if you take away her negligent behavior. 

26 minutes ago, frenin said:

And that would have kept him alive how?? And you're assuming that his daughters would actually make it.

why wouldn't they make it. if they were safely out of KL, they are at the very least not captives of the Lannisters to be used against him or with him included. had he been the only valuable hostage at play, they would need to use him as leverage as intended. no need for a public confession, maybe a trade of captives for peace. having him alive is  valuable. the only reason he gets axed is because he openly confesses to treason and Joffrey takes the reigns. if he was the only one, he'd likely remain in the black cells until needed to call off Robb Stark and co.  the fact is Sansa being held prisoner influences his decision to confess. if still brought befiore baelor's sept and he refused the confession and still died, Joffery would be in  a negative light right off the bat. who knows with his daughters out of Lannister reach, he could proclaim Stannis King for all to hear and still lose his head. heck, his plan was for the boat to pass by Dragonstone first and deliver the message to Stannis. maybe his daughters become guests or hostages of Stannis to ensure Robb's loyaty. who knows. 

40 minutes ago, frenin said:

Arya is more adaptable than Sansa in the field, she's like fish out of the water in court and she would have gotten herself killed really fast, especially if she had to endure Joffrey.

Arya falling in line?? That's a good one.

uh huh, just the field, nope, she does pretty well otherwise. Naw that's rubbish. as stated befor, had Arya been in her position she would fall in line. at Harrenhall she did just that. oh and she wouldn't be killed because she would be more valuable alive. Sansa is not ever really in danger of dying in KL as she is wanted whole for political reasons. if they had arya instead of Sansa would that be any different? nope Sansa's claim and those invested in it, keep her alive, not Sansa herself. and the whole reason why Sansa and Arya were in King's landing was to learn the ways of a southern court. she has more witts about her than Sansa does and adapting to life in captivity would not be hard for Arya. I am just curious why would Arya die?

 

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