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Alyn Oakenfist

Who's the stupidest player in the Game of Thrones?

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Your question re Sansa...

The way I see it, it is not a case of all or nothing. No single person is to blame for Ned's downfall. Sansa played a role, certainly, but it would be unfair to put all the blame on her. But it would also be unfair to exonerate her. She was not privy to all of Ned's plans regarding Stannis, the gold cloaks, etc... but she knew more than just that her father planned to spirit her and Arya away from King's Landing. She knew when they were to leave, on what ship, how many men would be in their escort, who would have the command, where Arya was that morning, etc... all of which was useful to Cersei in planning and timing her move.

- GRRM

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1017

Even GRRM says Sansa is not blameless.

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On 10/10/2020 at 8:19 AM, SeanF said:

The problem is that succeeding at The Game of Thrones is like succeeding when you play Diplomacy (an immensely enjoyable game, by the way).  You need excellent interpersonal skills, combined with the morals of a sociopath.  In a board game, it's fine to display the morals of a sociopath.  In real life, not so much.

So, when people say that Ned was a fool, I'd reply that I'd rather go to my grave, knowing that I had done my utmost to save the lives of innocents, than to spend the rest of my life knowing that I had done the opposite.

And, the story is not finished.  The wise cannot know all ends.  Perhaps in the end, the pity of Ned Stark may rule the fate of millions.

Reasonable points.  However, he was outplayed by Cersei.  There is that to consider.  My opinion, it's not that Eddard was bad at the game.  He understood the game enough to know to whom the city watch answered to.  Follow the purse.  One cannot fault him for trusting Petyr Baelish.  His own wife trusted PB.  He was not wrong to give Cersei a chance.  But the timing was wrong and he revealed the plans to the wrong people.   I am talking about Sansa.  He should have been more aware of the character traits of his children.  Sansa revealed her real nature near the Trident.  That should have been a warning to a parent.  

Anyways, so the dumbest player is Robb Stark.  

Edited by Prince Rhaego's Soul

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On 10/10/2020 at 10:22 AM, Rosetta Stone said:

Oberyn Martell was good in combat but terrible when it comes to playing the game.  The worst player to me is the guy who had victory in his grasp and lost it because of something stupid. 

But did he have victory in his grasp really?

His own stated objective was that he would get a confession from Gregor that implicated Tywin,

Quote

"I came for justice for Elia and her children, and I will have it. Starting with this lummox Gregor Clegane … but not, I think, ending there. Before he dies, the Enormity That Rides will tell me whence came his orders, please assure your lord father of that."

(ASoS, Ch.38 Tyrion V)

When he offers to act as Tyrion's champion, he hints that he intended to have Tywin's life for Elia's

Quote

“Your father,” said Prince Oberyn, “may not live forever.”
Something about the way he said it made the hairs on the back of Tyrion’s neck bristle. Suddenly he was mindful of Elia again, and all that Oberyn had said as they crossed the field of ashes. He wants the head that spoke the words, not just the hand that swung the sword.

(ASoS, Ch.66 Tyrion IX)

He was too late to get Amory Lorch's life for Rhaenys'. He did not get the confession that implicated Lord Tywin, and trying to wring it from Gregor during mortal combat costed Oberyn his life, and his intended vengence for Aegon. 

For a Prince that commanded a company of sell-swords in war and a Lord Councillor  on Tommen's Small Council, and prospective husband for Cersei, he is surprisingly ineffectual.

If we assume Hoat was acting on Oberyn's command, we might give him credit for the loss of Jaime's sword hand and the death of Amory Lorch, granting him 1 out of 3 of his stated targets.

 But I see no reason to do that. The enmity between Hoat and Lorch explains the bear, and Hoat was famous for lopping off limbs before he met Jaime. Urswyck, Shagwell, the Myrish bowman, and Zollo all knew the drill, and of course it would be the sword hand for a swordsman. Brienne keeps her hands because sexism. Hoat would have fed her to the bear for amusement, when her father had no sapphires. There is no sign Oberyn was being consulted at every sept or cottage where Hoat lopped off a limb or killed someone; there is no sign Oberyn and Hoat keep in touch, are on friendly terms, have ever met. Self-defense and business as usual can fully account for Hoat's atrocities.

Winning in single combat against Gregor would not have put Lord Tywin on trial for Elia's murder. I doubt it would have saved Tyrion from going to the Wall, or into exile, or into some small oubliette at Casterly Rock.

It is hard to understand why Oberyn expected Gregor to talk when there was killing to be done, and his own life in the balance if he failed. Although the ploy worked much better than I would have thought; both Gregor and Oberyn had a VO2 max I can only envy. Seriously, though, it isn't a great tactic for getting Gregor to open up and reminisce about the old times.

So it is zero out of three for Oberyn, and he put his life on the line to catch one of the minnows. And lost.

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10 hours ago, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

they were not trapped regardless. the boat in which is daughters were supposed to leave on would and could have saved them had Sansa not intervened. Ned himswelf knew he was valuable as a hostage, and his intent was to stay while his family escaped.

ok so ned had fewer men.  doesn't mean his cause was lost just yet. stealth was getting his daughters out of KL. Sansa blew it.

age is no excuse for her actions. if people cannot excuse Joffery's cruelty because of age, Sansa should not get that privilege either.

 

  • They were trapped regardless, once the City Watch pledged to Cersei, it was quite clear that they were not going anywhere, Cersei only had to close the ports... Ned himself was a valuable hostage that was killed and e planned to stay because he believed he had a chance, he was wrong.
  • Unless Ice is actually Excalibur and we had not noticed, yes, his cause was lost the minute Petyr went to Cersei.
  • The comparison between Joffrey and Sanas is so absurd thatit doesn't deserve an argumentation.

 

 

10 hours ago, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

he told them both. 

Father’s mouth twitched strangely. “Sansa, I’m not sending you away for fighting,
though the gods know I’m sick of you two squabbling. I want you back in Winterfell for
your own safety. Three of my men were cut down like dogs not a league from where we
sit, and what does Robert do? He goes hunting.”

For safety... From what?? Ned does not clarify anything,  Sansa does not understand anything, compare that to what Ned actually tells Arya.

 

Quote

“Arya, sit down. I need to try to explain some things to you.” She perched anxiously on the edge of her bed. “You are too young to be burdened with all my cares,” he told her, “but you are also a Stark of Winterfell. You know our words.” “Winter is coming,” Arya whispered. “The hard cruel times,” her father said. “We tasted them on the Trident, child, and when Bran fell. You were born in the long summer, sweet one, you’ve never known anything else, but now the winter is truly coming. Remember the sigil of our House, Arya.” “The direwolf,” she said, thinking of Nymeria. She hugged her knees against her chest, suddenly afraid.We have enemies who mean us ill. We cannot fight a war among ourselves. This willfulness of yours, the running off, the angry words, the disobedience … at home, these were only the summer games of a child. Here and now, with winter soon upon us, that is a different matter. It is time to begin growing up.”

Whereas Ned gives clear indications to Arya to undersand the dangerr they are in, he keeps giving vague info to Sansa, the outcome will not surprise you.

 

 

10 hours ago, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

no, not really. Bran and theon were princes not kings. Catelyn, Peterfinger, Varys are all not Kings, yet they do the dance as well. Renly was a king only because Mace Tyrell had him crowned, Mace is just a High Lord. so yet Sansa is comparable.

Yes, really.  You're comparing her to Joffrey, a King, you're comparing her with Varys or Cat.

Do you know what they had that Sansa doesn't?? Power.

 

 

10 hours ago, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

oh yes that is correct. she became a pawn the moment she lost control. her self delusion made her think she was and she did. she meddllied into her fathers politicking and became a noble hostage.  her willful neglect of her fathers wishes for her own selfish desire is her playing the game of thrones. in Sansa's case she has the eye on a Queenship as Joffrey's consort. My mistake, her intervention prevents her own escape as she is locked up. she is in Lannister custody when Ned is betrayed. would Cercie be so bold had she not had Sansa in her pocket. maybe, maybe not. renly said it best he who controls the king controlled the kingdom. Sansa came to her willingly and then Cercie had a means to control Ned. 

Made her think she was what?? What Game of Thrones was she playing?? Staying at King's Landing so she could see Loras more often?? That's the Game to you??

Cersei needs to be so bold or otherwise she's dead and with Citi Watch behind her, she holds all the cards and Ned holds none,  Ned is not captured because of Sansa, that's a straight up lie.

 

 

10 hours ago, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

really? what doesn't make sense? her selfish desire led to her selfish actions that gave her a wish which was a poisoned apple. she got what she wanted at first. Stay in kings landing yet she loses everything. - i'm just being objective. she is guilty for some of the events that go down, no need to absolve her of it as she won't have any character growth if you take away her negligent behavior. 

No, she doesn't get what she wanted, she wanted to say in King's Landing as they had been for the past months, which is with her family in power and her being safe, she doesn't want to be a hostage or seen her father get decapitated. And it has anything to do with growth,  nor her growth depends on whether i absolve her or you condemn her to the purgatory.

 

 

10 hours ago, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

why wouldn't they make it. if they were safely out of KL, they are at the very least not captives of the Lannisters to be used against him or with him included. had he been the only valuable hostage at play, they would need to use him as leverage as intended. no need for a public confession, maybe a trade of captives for peace. having him alive is  valuable. the only reason he gets axed is because he openly confesses to treason and Joffrey takes the reigns. if he was the only one, he'd likely remain in the black cells until needed to call off Robb Stark and co.  the fact is Sansa being held prisoner influences his decision to confess. if still brought befiore baelor's sept and he refused the confession and still died, Joffery would be in  a negative light right off the bat. who knows with his daughters out of Lannister reach, he could proclaim Stannis King for all to hear and still lose his head. heck, his plan was for the boat to pass by Dragonstone first and deliver the message to Stannis. maybe his daughters become guests or hostages of Stannis to ensure Robb's loyaty. who knows. 

 

We can't be even sure that they would be making it out, regardless,  Ned was the only valuable hostage at play for either party, neither the Lannisters nor the Starks were going to lay down the arms for Sansa, as it's stated several times by both, even Robb, Ned was also dying for sepsis by that stage, he was a dead man, regardless of anything, so it's more likeñy that he dies in th e Black Cells before Robb evergets to  see the walls of King's Landing.

 

10 hours ago, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

uh huh, just the field, nope, she does pretty well otherwise. Naw that's rubbish. as stated befor, had Arya been in her position she would fall in line. at Harrenhall she did just that. oh and she wouldn't be killed because she would be more valuable alive. Sansa is not ever really in danger of dying in KL as she is wanted whole for political reasons. if they had arya instead of Sansa would that be any different? nope Sansa's claim and those invested in it, keep her alive, not Sansa herself. and the whole reason why Sansa and Arya were in King's landing was to learn the ways of a southern court. she has more witts about her than Sansa does and adapting to life in captivity would not be hard for Arya. I am just curious why would Arya die?

If you can tell me, when does Arya fare well in court, I would gladly admit that i'm wrong, because what we've seen from her is that Arya is more easy to adapt to be a servant than she's to be a lady.

Sansa was getting beaten daily by the King's guard, Arya is more fragile than her and younger, thatshe wouldn't get killed is a bold statement, especially because Arya has never had Sansa's restraint.

How is Sansa never really in danger of dying?? Have we've read the same pages in ACOK or ASOS?? Because Sansa is beaten repeatedly, has to dance around Joffrey so he doesn't abuse her more.  almost died in a riot,  almost died at the Blackwater and then is framed of Joffrey's murder.

Edited by frenin

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1 hour ago, frenin said:

They were trapped regardless, once the City Watch pledged to Cersei, it was quite clear that they were not going anywhere, Cersei only had to close the ports... Ned himself was a valuable hostage that was killed and e planned to stay because he believed he had a chance, he was wrong.

Assuming that members of goldcloaks are hired either from King's Landing or areas near that city there should been many watchmen who would have hated Lannisters. After all if during sacking of KL someone had killed uncle of X, raped older sister of Y or burned old home of Z those watchmen would not have been loyal to Cercei. So in a way Ned could have assumed that goldcloaks would have hated Cercei and not supported her.

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2 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

Assuming that members of goldcloaks are hired either from King's Landing or areas near that city there should been many watchmen who would have hated Lannisters.

Confirmed by Ironhand. ACoK, Tyrion IX.

Quote

"My men are largely drawn from the smallfolk. They walk the same streets, drink in the same winesinks, spoon down their bowls of brown in the same pot-shops. Your eunuch must have told you, there is small love for the Lannisters in King's Landing. Many still remember how your lord father sacked the city, when Aerys opened the gates to him. They whisper that the gods are punishing us for the sins of your House—for your brother's murder of King Aerys, for the butchery of Rhaegar's children, for the execution of Eddard Stark and the savagery of Joffrey's justice. Some talk openly of how much better things were when Robert was king, and hint that times would be better again with Stannis on the throne. In pot-shops and winesinks and brothels, you hear these things—and in the barracks and guardhalls as well, I fear."

"They hate my family, is that what you are telling me?"

"Aye . . . and will turn on them, if the chance comes."

This is said after Slynt triples the size of the Watch, though.

Edited by TsarGrey

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On 10/6/2020 at 4:22 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

And why is it Cersei?

Cersei?  You have got to be joking.  Cersei outwitted Robert and Ned easily.

I am picking Jon Snow.  He arguably had the most important job of anyone in Westeros.  Jon has seen the beheading of a deserter.  Qhorin even taught him what it means to be a man of the watch.  Jon saw the dedication of a true man of the watch after Qhorin sacrificed himself.  Aemon gave him a lecture on duty.  Mormont mentored him and Samwell gave him a little education.  All of that and he still created a mess of things at the wall. 

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In a ways, Tyrion, cos he thinks he’s clever. Varys and Littlefinger eat him for breakfast, he knows what they are and they run rings around him, he loses half his nose, his girlfriend, was successfully framed for Regicide, threw his dice on a trial by combat and only had a slight hope of succeeding because of a pissed off Dornishman (still lost). Angrily demands more credit for the Blackwater even though he got exactly the credit he deserved for his contribution, and allowed his enemies at court to strip him of all the powers bestowed upon him by his father. His victories only really include Janos Slynt and giving Cersie the shits.

 

You should expect Ned not to fair too well, but you expect better from Tyrion, the game literally cost him everything

Edited by FitzChivalry Fartseer

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On 10/10/2020 at 10:00 AM, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

so is Joffrey

It’s not really comparable. Joffreys mistakes are generally a lot worse and he’s in a position of power. Sansa never really was as far as I can remember.

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On 10/10/2020 at 12:05 PM, Damon_Tor said:

Both Stannis and Renly share a booby prize here simply because they could have easily taken everything just by playing nicely together. Renly bends to Stannis and is unambiguously named Stannis's heir and Hand. A pleasant if unambitious marriage for Shireen becomes a part of the deal, tucking her away happily in some pleasant little castle someplace in the Reach. Stannis handles the military decisions while Renly handles the politics. Renly's political marriage to the Tyrells is likely intact, Melisandre's insistence that Stannis must be King and the mythic implications thereof is obeyed. This solves every single problem either of them has and their victory would have been easy.

To add to the blunder, the Stark's cause for rebellion was entirely personal, and a Stannis/Renly administration could have very likely brought them back in line just by handing over Joffrey, Cercei, Jaime and anyone else Rob demanded face Northern justice for Ned's execution (it helps that they would likely have Sansa in their care as well). Tyrion would likely be tried again by the Starks for Bran's attempted assassination and executed for it: trial by combat isn't an option in the North, and Rob wouldn't likely care about the legitimacy of the Southron trial that already exonerated him.

The Greyjoys joined the war late in our timeline anyway, so if the Baratheon Boys can wrap the war up as quickly as it seems like they could, Balon probably wouldn't even declare in the first place. The Martel apparent primary motive, justice for Elia, is easily accomplished once the Lannisters fall from power. It would cost the Baratheons nothing to hand over the Mountain to the Martels for trial. Tywin likely keeps his life and his title even if the Mountain claims Tywin gave the order while being tortured. But of course with all his heirs dead and nobody on the throne with any loyalty to him, his power would be greatly diminished and his later years would be filled with loneliness and hatred. Maybe Oberyn manages to poison him at some point, or maybe he dies of natural causes, but either way Kevan and/or Lancel eventually inherits the Rock.

The war behind them and reasonably short, the Seven Kingdoms could prepare for winter properly. Melisandre at the King's ear would recognize the threat beyond the Wall and the crown would support the Watch with coin, supplies, and men enough to occupy every castle. Stannis could leave the Iron Throne to Renly's capable hands as he rides North to lead the Watch himself as Melisandre would doubtless encourage him to do.

In all, a much better end for Westeros. But we don't get that end because neither Renly nor Stannis could be bothered to compromise with the other. Sad, really.

Wasn’t a Stannis planning on having a son? And wouldn’t the Tyrells abandon Renly’s cause if Stannis was going to be the King?

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10 hours ago, frenin said:
  • They were trapped regardless, once the City Watch pledged to Cersei, it was quite clear that they were not going anywhere, Cersei only had to close the ports... Ned himself was a valuable hostage that was killed and e planned to stay because he believed he had a chance, he was wrong.
  • Unless Ice is actually Excalibur and we had not noticed, yes, his cause was lost the minute Petyr went to Cersei.
  • The comparison between Joffrey and Sanas is so absurd thatit doesn't deserve an argumentation.

all thanks to Sansa spilling the beans of their departure.  the ports get closed and the ship infiltrated. 

Ned was valuable and only lost his head by unforeseen circumstances and again had he been the only one, likely would not have happened. but plot contrivance has him die for war to go into full swing. 

the comparison between Sansa and Joffrey is not absurd. they are both privileged and entitled brats that hold substantial status in politics. he the prince, she the bride to be. 

10 hours ago, frenin said:

For safety... From what?? Ned does not clarify anything,  Sansa does not understand anything, compare that to what Ned actually tells Arya.

Father’s mouth twitched strangely. “Sansa, I’m not sending you away for fighting,
though the gods know I’m sick of you two squabbling. I want you back in Winterfell for
your own safety. Three of my men were cut down like dogs not a league from where we
sit,
and what does Robert do? He goes hunting.”

that is clear as day that safety is the issue. not everyone needs to be told every single detail to know why, but Sansa should be well aware of this especially since Ned himself is injured. 

10 hours ago, frenin said:

Whereas Ned gives clear indications to Arya to undersand the dangerr they are in, he keeps giving vague info to Sansa, the outcome will not surprise you.

you know, the difference here is that Sansa is the obedient one and has little need for complete and detailed explainations whereas Arya has runoff on the Kingsroad, got lost in the castle and has to constantly be reigned in to behave. and Explaination to Arya makes more sense. and Sansa was given no vague information so there is that. 

10 hours ago, frenin said:

Yes, really.  You're comparing her to Joffrey, a King, you're comparing her with Varys or Cat.

Do you know what they had that Sansa doesn't?? Power.

oh Sansa had power and she used it. she went to the Queen and bam! A prisoner she becomes. she had the power to obey. her actions were willfully disobedient. she isn't powerless. she had information and gave it freely. 

11 hours ago, frenin said:

No, she doesn't get what she wanted, she wanted to say in King's Landing as they had been for the past months, which is with her family in power and her being safe, she doesn't want to be a hostage or seen her father get decapitated. And it has anything to do with growth,  nor her growth depends on whether i absolve her or you condemn her to the purgatory.

No she wanted to remain in King's landing and be Queen. her actions all center around her dream prince and her status as a future Queen. You misunderstood what I said.  she got what she wanted which was to remain in kings landing with her prince, but it was a poisoned apple due to the cruelty of Joffrey and the death of Eddard Stark and of course her  precarious position as a noble hostage rather than an honored lady of the court. she has been brought low by her own selfish desires and diminutive world view. her overcoming that is growth. 

11 hours ago, frenin said:

We can't be even sure that they would be making it out, regardless,  Ned was the only valuable hostage at play for either party, neither the Lannisters nor the Starks were going to lay down the arms for Sansa, as it's stated several times by both, even Robb, Ned was also dying for sepsis by that stage, he was a dead man, regardless of anything, so it's more likeñy that he dies in th e Black Cells before Robb evergets to  see the walls of King's Landing.

ok so, doesn't change that the escape plan was blown by Sansa . 

and Ned was the most Valuable because he was a HighLord. doesn't mean his daughters would be useless. When he dies Sansa becomes more valuable because she is of the Stark family and Jaimie has been captured. later as the remaining Stark clan starts disappearing, Sansa's value skyrockets as the schemers all try to utilize her claim for their own benefits. 

ok so hypothetically  Ned dies in black cells,  their coup was successful  and Sansa and Arya escape, the Lannisters will  have little bargaining power as they have no hostages. so obviously if Ned is dying, they have an invested interest in keeping him alive to trade wile he is still breathing and end the war. And they have the lack of a confession which affirms Joffery as Robert's heir while portraying the Starks as the baddies. 

11 hours ago, frenin said:

Made her think she was what?? What Game of Thrones was she playing?? Staying at King's Landing so she could see Loras more often?? That's the Game to you??

Cersei needs to be so bold or otherwise she's dead and with Citi Watch behind her, she holds all the cards and Ned holds none,  Ned is not captured because of Sansa, that's a straight up lie.

no. she played politics. that is the game. her intention was to get them to prevent her from leaving King's landing to be with joffery and become his future queen.

as to your assertion I read the bolded below. 

  

11 hours ago, frenin said:
20 hours ago, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

oh yes that is correct. she became a pawn the moment she lost control. her self delusion made her think she was and she did. she meddllied into her fathers politicking and became a noble hostage.  her willful neglect of her fathers wishes for her own selfish desire is her playing the game of thrones. in Sansa's case she has the eye on a Queenship as Joffrey's consort. My mistake, her intervention prevents her own escape as she is locked up. she is in Lannister custody when Ned is betrayed. would Cercie be so bold had she not had Sansa in her pocket. maybe, maybe not. renly said it best he who controls the king controlled the kingdom. Sansa came to her willingly and then Cercie had a means to control Ned. 

 

11 hours ago, frenin said:

If you can tell me, when does Arya fare well in court, I would gladly admit that i'm wrong, because what we've seen from her is that Arya is more easy to adapt to be a servant than she's to be a lady.

Sansa was getting beaten daily by the King's guard, Arya is more fragile than her and younger, thatshe wouldn't get killed is a bold statement, especially because Arya has never had Sansa's restraint.

How is Sansa never really in danger of dying?? Have we've read the same pages in ACOK or ASOS?? Because Sansa is beaten repeatedly, has to dance around Joffrey so he doesn't abuse her more.  almost died in a riot,  almost died at the Blackwater and then is framed of Joffrey's murder.

Lady's serve do they not? Arya has been in a serving role for a lot of the books were Sansa has been in a served position.  this in no way means Arya cannot be a lady. she has the same education as her sister.  and I guess that depends too on the type. is she a lady by courtesy, as a consort, or a ruling noblewoman? she plays the role of a boy to keep her identity  a secret why not as a lady if the situation presented itself? being a servant could be what Arya needs to be a good lady. 

Arya learns restraint and learns to keep her mouth shut. unfortunately Sansa  is submitting not restraining. 

being beaten is not the same as getting murdered, executed or tortured to death. Sansa's near miss was the bread riots in king's landing, but then again so were Joffery and Tommen's lives. almost died at blackwater.... threats are one thing,surviving an attempt is another.

,  oh framed yes and then whisked away like she was never there so her husband gets the blame. she and Tyrion are blamed not just Sansa. Tyrion getting thwacked in the face was almost getting killed. the difference is that people are not hunting her with an invested reason to kill Sansa. she isn't going hungry or looking for a place to stay etc. in a way Arya being incognito puts her in danger slightly more because her value is not known exept when it does become known by the brotherhood and then Sandor. 

Sansa is not in danger because of the value others have in her. they have an invested interest to keep her alive. yea sure Cercie could have slaughtered them all to prevent them becoming prizes of Stannis but that never happens not even close. 

Sansa is also catered to, well fed, dressed, has servants and freedom of the castle as opposed to Arya who has to find food, work her ass off and hope not be noticed by those who would do harm on her or her little pack. 

 

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6 hours ago, FitzChivalry Fartseer said:

In a ways, Tyrion, cos he thinks he’s clever. Varys and Littlefinger eat him for breakfast, he knows what they are and they run rings around him, he loses half his nose, his girlfriend, was successfully framed for Regicide, threw his dice on a trial by combat and only had a slight hope of succeeding because of a pissed off Dornishman (still lost). Angrily demands more credit for the Blackwater even though he got exactly the credit he deserved for his contribution, and allowed his enemies at court to strip him of all the powers bestowed upon him by his father. His victories only really include Janos Slynt and giving Cersie the shits.

 

You should expect Ned not to fair too well, but you expect better from Tyrion, the game literally cost him everything

Tyrion is better as a supporting actor.  He makes a good Data to Captain Picard.  His emotional baggage will keep him from holding it together over time.  What he needs is an emotional anchor.  He will need to stop caring what people think of him.  He can lose everything and still make himself useful to a great cause.  Like lending his services to one who is fighting the slave trade.

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On 10/11/2020 at 2:05 PM, Lee-Sensei said:

Wasn’t a Stannis planning on having a son? And wouldn’t the Tyrells abandon Renly’s cause if Stannis was going to be the King?

I don't recall Stannis forseeing any further children, and after 11 years with no further children after Shireen, it would be silly to expect things to change. The "why" of that is up for debate. Renly implied that Stannis and Selyse simply didn't have sex anymore, but who knows how factual that might be.

And the Tyrells are cunning operators, especially Olenna, who is the decider. With Renly as Hand and heir they would have their finger on almost as much power as they would with Renly as monarch, but with much better odds of actually getting the throne in the first place. What would you rather have, a 40% chance at $1000 or an 80% chance at $800? Olenna isn't dumb, she'd take the better bet.

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On 10/9/2020 at 3:11 PM, El Guapo said:

People shouldn't be bringing up Sansa for the simple fact that she is 12 years old

Youth is not a barrier to playing.  The Freys start playing before they can walk.  They're good at it.  Fat Walda and Big Walder are keen players.  Sansa is ignorant and may not have known what she was doing but she was playing the game during the Micah incident.  She made a play when she betrayed her father to Cersei later.  Those were games of power.

 

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On 10/11/2020 at 3:56 PM, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

all thanks to Sansa spilling the beans of their departure.  the ports get closed and the ship infiltrated. 

Ned was valuable and only lost his head by unforeseen circumstances and again had he been the only one, likely would not have happened. but plot contrivance has him die for war to go into full swing. 

the comparison between Sansa and Joffrey is not absurd. they are both privileged and entitled brats that hold substantial status in politics. he the prince, she the bride to be. 

Father’s mouth twitched strangely. “Sansa, I’m not sending you away for fighting,
though the gods know I’m sick of you two squabbling. I want you back in Winterfell for
your own safety. Three of my men were cut down like dogs not a league from where we
sit,
and what does Robert do? He goes hunting.”

that is clear as day that safety is the issue. not everyone needs to be told every single detail to know why, but Sansa should be well aware of this especially since Ned himself is injured. 

you know, the difference here is that Sansa is the obedient one and has little need for complete and detailed explainations whereas Arya has runoff on the Kingsroad, got lost in the castle and has to constantly be reigned in to behave. and Explaination to Arya makes more sense. and Sansa was given no vague information so there is that. 

oh Sansa had power and she used it. she went to the Queen and bam! A prisoner she becomes. she had the power to obey. her actions were willfully disobedient. she isn't powerless. she had information and gave it freely. 

No she wanted to remain in King's landing and be Queen. her actions all center around her dream prince and her status as a future Queen. You misunderstood what I said.  she got what she wanted which was to remain in kings landing with her prince, but it was a poisoned apple due to the cruelty of Joffrey and the death of Eddard Stark and of course her  precarious position as a noble hostage rather than an honored lady of the court. she has been brought low by her own selfish desires and diminutive world view. her overcoming that is growth. 

ok so, doesn't change that the escape plan was blown by Sansa . 

and Ned was the most Valuable because he was a HighLord. doesn't mean his daughters would be useless. When he dies Sansa becomes more valuable because she is of the Stark family and Jaimie has been captured. later as the remaining Stark clan starts disappearing, Sansa's value skyrockets as the schemers all try to utilize her claim for their own benefits. 

ok so hypothetically  Ned dies in black cells,  their coup was successful  and Sansa and Arya escape, the Lannisters will  have little bargaining power as they have no hostages. so obviously if Ned is dying, they have an invested interest in keeping him alive to trade wile he is still breathing and end the war. And they have the lack of a confession which affirms Joffery as Robert's heir while portraying the Starks as the baddies. 

no. she played politics. that is the game. her intention was to get them to prevent her from leaving King's landing to be with joffery and become his future queen.

as to your assertion I read the bolded below. 

  

 

Lady's serve do they not? Arya has been in a serving role for a lot of the books were Sansa has been in a served position.  this in no way means Arya cannot be a lady. she has the same education as her sister.  and I guess that depends too on the type. is she a lady by courtesy, as a consort, or a ruling noblewoman? she plays the role of a boy to keep her identity  a secret why not as a lady if the situation presented itself? being a servant could be what Arya needs to be a good lady. 

Arya learns restraint and learns to keep her mouth shut. unfortunately Sansa  is submitting not restraining. 

being beaten is not the same as getting murdered, executed or tortured to death. Sansa's near miss was the bread riots in king's landing, but then again so were Joffery and Tommen's lives. almost died at blackwater.... threats are one thing,surviving an attempt is another.

,  oh framed yes and then whisked away like she was never there so her husband gets the blame. she and Tyrion are blamed not just Sansa. Tyrion getting thwacked in the face was almost getting killed. the difference is that people are not hunting her with an invested reason to kill Sansa. she isn't going hungry or looking for a place to stay etc. in a way Arya being incognito puts her in danger slightly more because her value is not known exept when it does become known by the brotherhood and then Sandor. 

Sansa is not in danger because of the value others have in her. they have an invested interest to keep her alive. yea sure Cercie could have slaughtered them all to prevent them becoming prizes of Stannis but that never happens not even close. 

Sansa is also catered to, well fed, dressed, has servants and freedom of the castle as opposed to Arya who has to find food, work her ass off and hope not be noticed by those who would do harm on her or her little pack. 

 

Arya is running, and is a captive to various outlaws and and a cult. Sansa is a captive to the Lannisters. They are both in precarious positions. If Arya was captured by the Lannisters, she'd be a highborn hostage, just like Sansa. Just as many people are trying to put Arya in Sansa's position and preventing Sansa from being in Arya's position. Roose is even boasting about how he's found Arya as a hostage. Her identity could still be exposed. It's quite ridiculous when posters pit the Stark sisters against each other like they're competing in an Oppression Olympics, where Arya wins fifty million gold stars for being The Most Oppressed, while Sansa is the Least because she has servants (who are spies btw). Yeah sure she was abused but hey, she didn't die. I'm sure many survivors of domestic abuse would love to hear about the privilege of their experience because...they didn't die.

As for who is the stupidest player - IMO it's the characters who are loud, abrasive, unlearned, jocks. Sansa and Arya are both very much "under the radar" type people. They are both intelligent. 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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7 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I'd go with Arianne. I'm still not sure how her plot to crown Myrcella was supposed to work. I can't imagine a scenario where it wouldn't have been crushed immediately.  

I like Arianne a lot, but she’s not someone in whose hands I’d place the power to instigate total war.  The Martells are about to wage a war that will likely destroy the main branch of the family.

”She burned as bright as any man and so shall I.” 

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On 10/7/2020 at 10:46 AM, frenin said:

Sansa so far has not been a player un the game, only a pawn.

She was playing to become Joff's queen.  She omitted the truth and was partly responsible for what happened to the butcher's boy.  Sansa made that decision to back Joffrey in order to get on his good side.  Spilling the secret to Cersei was her way of trying to force her father to let her stay in KL to be near her beloved Joffrey. 

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18 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

Youth is not a barrier to playing.  The Freys start playing before they can walk.  They're good at it.  Fat Walda and Big Walder are keen players.  Sansa is ignorant and may not have known what she was doing but she was playing the game during the Micah incident.  She made a play when she betrayed her father to Cersei later.  Those were games of power.

 

BW will blossom into a formidable player.  Walda is just average.  She only served to relay messages between Roose and her dad. 

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